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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2821  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 6:40 AM
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Filled it in.

I would also urge everyone on the forum to fill in the survey.
     
     
  #2822  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 6:45 AM
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I filled it in.
     
     
  #2823  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 6:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
For those that couldn't make it to the open house, which would've been about 90% of you... Here are the display boards. Note the green additions which seem to favour a more expensive longer term greater capacity solution.

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/documents/PrinciplesOpenHouse2010-03-25.pdf

In the future it sure would be nice to see more of you attend these things, I know it's not always possible for everyone to attend every meeting, but I think it's a fair assessment that most people on here like to complain about things but never do anything to change them.
Thanks for the link. I like most of the changes, but there were a couple that irked me:

"Provide regional travel times that are reliable and competitive compare favourably to the private
automobile"

Why not competitive?

Then thee was a big long one about how transit would integrate with the streets, how stations would be safe, welcoming, etc. They took the "safe" part away.

Now I always thought the safe solution would be grade separated... unless they are leaning towards that and feel that it would be so safe that safety is no longe worth mentioning.



Also, alot of those "sticky notes" summarizing points are damn near word-for-word of what members said on here. I first noticed when one of the sticky notes brought up that the benefit of the regional transit network, and actual transit users, are more important to consider than the local stakeholders. Now compare all the sticky's that say that with huenthar's post.
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  #2824  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 8:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
For those that couldn't make it to the open house, which would've been about 90% of you... Here are the display boards. Note the green additions which seem to favour a more expensive longer term greater capacity solution.

http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/documents/PrinciplesOpenHouse2010-03-25.pdf

In the future it sure would be nice to see more of you attend these things, I know it's not always possible for everyone to attend every meeting, but I think it's a fair assessment that most people on here like to complain about things but never do anything to change them.
I would be nice if they could consider scheduling an open house for the weekend. Some of us do work the afternoon shift monday to friday

Although personally I've never been an outspoken person in public. Unless someone really pisses me off and I know I'm right
     
     
  #2825  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 8:59 AM
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Filled it in. Started with long answers and then at some point I started getting tired. Whew, didn't know I had so much to say! I finshed it though!

I read jlo's pdf file after submitting. Many of the issues I talked about were alluded to in the pdf. I did mention alot of things that weren't in there tho. Which I think is good.

Obviously I am pro-SkyTrain, but I didn't trash talk LRT. My basic premise was that LRT can be good for Broadway, but it has limitations due to street real estate, speed and capacity, and local vs regional.

While I was typing out this survey, I was thinking that if ppl here all put together their responses, you could come up with a pretty comprehensive and impressive document/thesis on SkyTrain expansion along Broadway.
     
     
  #2826  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 3:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Mind View Post
Thanks for the link. I like most of the changes, but there were a couple that irked me:

"Provide regional travel times that are reliable and competitive compare favourably to the private
automobile"

Why not competitive?
"Compare favourably" is stronger language meaning transit should be superior to the private automobile.

"Competitive" was weaker language meaning that transit should be equal to the private automobile.

I think the change has made the language stronger and more amenable to SkyTrain. I saw lots of other updates in the document that made the language more supportive of SkyTrain. For example, the transit riders were added as stakeholders, and all of their concerns that should be met by the system clearly pointed in favour of SkyTrain.
     
     
  #2827  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 3:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
"Compare favourably" is stronger language meaning transit should be superior to the private automobile.

"Competitive" was weaker language meaning that transit should be equal to the private automobile.

I think the change has made the language stronger and more amenable to SkyTrain. I saw lots of other updates in the document that made the language more supportive of SkyTrain. For example, the transit riders were added as stakeholders, and all of their concerns that should be met by the system clearly pointed in favour of SkyTrain.
Still sounds to me like someone got a case of "weak knees" syndrome. If the language is meant to be stronger, use strong language, and say that their intention is for "Transit times to be superior to that of the automobile."
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  #2828  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 5:42 PM
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^ in order to "compare favourably", wouldn't something implicitly have to be "superior"?
     
     
  #2829  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
^ in order to "compare favourably", wouldn't something implicitly have to be "superior"?
Yea, but it's sort of undertoned, as if it is trying to downplay the significance of the point.

Just like if you get arrested for aggravated assault with a weapon... The most you'd admit to the cop is, "I hit the guy" instead of, "I took a Louisville slugger to his face 26 times."
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  #2830  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 8:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Locked In View Post
^ Thanks JL. I'm often guilty of not making it to these things, but I try to provide feedback when I can't.

Speaking of which: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ZHR5F3R

Those of you who haven't provided feedback yet - do it now. It takes as little as 5-10 minutes. I doubt the powers that be are actually making their decisions based too much on what the squeaky-wheel joe public thinks, but a show of support for grade-separated rail is important. If enough of us write in supporting skytrain, that will make it politically easier for the City/Translink/Province to ignore the Nimbys, the streetcar-down-broadway crowd and whoever else doesn't ever want to see anything change, ever. At the very least, it's so, so much more effective than preaching to the choir on here, day after day, month after month. And we all seem to have lots of time to do that.

Comments must be submitted by March 30.
fillled it in last nite.

Just quote again and remind that today is the last day
     
     
  #2831  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 8:41 PM
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^In the process of filling that in. An underground M-Line Skytrain extension to UBC with the bored tunnel under W.10th Ave will be the ONLY option that can meet all 6 principles outlined by COV. There's no way the streetcar will meet even one of them. The choice is just that obvious and I'm just so shocked that some people can't see that.
     
     
  #2832  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 9:05 PM
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Filled it in the other day. I was very pleased to see that many points that have come up in discussion here made it into the post-it notes. This bodes well for the future of Broadway.

Fill in the form if you haven't already. I'm looking at you, members-who-never-post and non-members!

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ZHR5F3R
     
     
  #2833  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 9:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Mind View Post
Then thee was a big long one about how transit would integrate with the streets, how stations would be safe, welcoming, etc. They took the "safe" part away.

Now I always thought the safe solution would be grade separated... unless they are leaning towards that and feel that it would be so safe that safety is no longe worth mentioning.
I would expect "safe" was removed to avoid the implication that SkyTrain is a crime train.
     
     
  #2834  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 10:31 PM
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"the crime line"! i'd forgotten about that one. you know, i still remain convinced that the province and sun were only running that anti-transit campaign to sabotage the public's support for the ndp (which, of course, was pushing ahead with the m-line). sure as day, the campaign disappeared when they liberals cut everything to the bone (including any notions of m-line extensions), but then not a peep about the "crime line" during the rav line debate. i'd like to think that british columbians are more intelligent now, but if there's a hotbed of recalcitrant anti-crime liners to be found in vancouver, i have no doubt that the ubc line debates will pull it out of the woodwork.
     
     
  #2835  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2010, 3:28 AM
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From the Houston Chronicle
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/6922730.html


The emperor’s new light rail
Metro expansion plan rests on myths and falsehoods
By BILL KING
HOUSTON CHRONCLE
March 20, 2010, 4:02PM
In 1837, the great storyteller Hans Christian Andersen wrote the classic short story The Emperor's New Clothes. In the story, a vain emperor is duped by two swindlers who convince him that they can make him a magic suit of clothes that would be invisible to “anyone who was unfit for his office, or unusually stupid.” The emperor buys into the ruse and has the suit made. When it is finished, the emperor sees nothing but will not admit it because he fears others may be able to see the suit and thereby prove that he is unfit for his office. Soon his entire court is swept up in the self-deception as everyone claims to be able to see the nonexistent suit. Ultimately, the ruse is exposed when the emperor and his court go out for a public processional and a child in the crowd cries out that the emperor is naked.

For the last seven years, Houston's leadership has been engaged in exactly the same kind of groupthink about Metro's light rail plan. Anyone who has dared question this plan has been immediately relegated to the status of being unusually stupid, or at least some concrete-loving Luddite with a deviant desire for the automobile.

Well, at the risk of being deemed unusually stupid, I am here to say that Metro's light rail plan is naked as a jaybird. Here are six myths about Metro's light rail plan that you need to know. They demonstrate why we should scrap this plan and stop throwing good money after bad.

Myth No. 1: Metro's light rail will improve traffic congestion.

I am amazed at how often I hear that we must build Metro's light rail transit, or LRT, system to reduce traffic congestion. There is no study, projection or any other evidence that supports the proposition that the at-grade light rail system expansion that Metro is proposing will reduce traffic congestion. To the contrary, all the evidence predicts that it will make traffic substantially worse in the areas in which it is built.

To its credit, even Metro does not claim that its LRT will improve traffic congestion. Its own studies show significant operational degradation at every major intersection the LRT will cross.

Not that it takes a traffic engineer to figure out that an intersection like Post Oak and Westheimer is going to be negatively affected by adding two trains to what is already a nightmare cross- roads. The idea that we are going to improve congestion by cramming a new transportation system into the same horizontal plane as existing vehicular traffic is nonsense on its face.

Myth No. 2: Houston will lose federal funds if it does not build Metro's light rail.

Actually, exactly the opposite is true. As a general proposition, the Federal Transportation Agency will pay for about 50 percent of the cost of a rail system. However, because Metro has included some segments that do not qualify for federal funds (primarily the Uptown line), the FTA will likely pay for only about 35 percent of the cost. That means that we will have to come up with about $2 of local money for every $1 of federal funds. However, for other kinds of transit improvements, like purchasing buses or improving the HOV system, Metro could qualify for as much as 80 percent reimbursement, thus leveraging our local dollars by as much as 4-to-1.

Myth No. 3: Metro's LRT will result in more transit riders.

As part of the federal application process, Metro was required to do studies of how much transit ridership will increase if the LRT is built. It is required to compare projected ridership for the LRT to a “no build” scenario, that is, to continue to rely on buses. What these studies show is that almost all the LRT ridership comes from people already riding a bus. Even the much-heralded Main Street line has resulted only in about a 20 percent increase in ridership over the bus lines serving the same corridor before it was built. If increasing transit ridership is the goal, which I believe it clearly should be, then there are much cheaper and more effective ways to do so.

Myth No. 4: Metro's LRT will reduce air pollution.

Again, there is absolutely no evidence that the LRT proposed by Metro will have any significant impact on air quality. Mostly, the LRT will be replacing some existing buses. Traffic studies show that it will result in very few cars coming off the road. While buses certainly are responsible for some emissions, those could be controlled at a much lower cost by converting to natural gas. And whether there is any overall reduction in emissions actually depends on what kind of fuel is used to generate the electricity for the LRT. If coal-fired electricity is used, the net result might be to increase emissions.

Myth No. 5: Metro can afford the LRT.

The cost of the LRT has exploded since it was first proposed in 2003. Then approximately 30 miles were to cost $1.2 billion, with the FTA expected to pick up half the cost. That is about $40 million per mile total cost, the local share being about $20 million per mile. Now the cost has soared to something well in excess of $3 billion, with the FTA contributing only about a billion. That works out to $100 million per mile total cost and a staggering increase in the local share to something over $67 million per mile.

In April 2008, Metro showed me its financial projections. At that time, Metro projected that the LRT would consume about 75 percent of its discretionary funds for the next 30 years. In fact, its projections showed that it would have only about $1.5 billion over the next 30 years to make additional improvements such as enhancing the HOV systems, building transit centers or adding commuter rail. But here is the kicker. That projection assumed a 5.15 percent increase in sales tax over the same period and a 7.5 percent annual increase in fares. Obviously, these projections are not working out so well, because Metro's sales tax revenue has plummeted and its attempt to raise fares has resulted in its largest ridership declines ever.

That is why you now are beginning to hear calls from Metro loyalists to end the general mobility payments to the city of Houston. However, with the city's finances running on fumes, that is unlikely to happen. The result is that Metro will either never be able to put the financing together for the LRT (and we will have wasted hundreds of millions planning it) or it will cobble together some highly leveraged plan that will permanently cripple Metro financially. In that case, the biggest losers in this will be Houston's transit-dependent citizens, because Metro will be forced to gut the bus system to pay for the LRT. Make no mistake; if the LRT is ever built, it will be done on the backs of the low-income working families that currently rely on the bus system to get them to and from work.

Myth No. 6: The voters approved Metro's LRT plan.

This may be the one that irks me most, because I was in the mix when the compromise plan that appeared on the 2003 referendum was struck. The 2003 referendum had three elements: (1) a $1.2 billion LRT system; (2) a roughly 50 percent increase in bus service; and (3) initiating a plan for commuter rail. Metro has completely abandoned the bus expansion: We have fewer buses and bus riders today than we did in 2003. It also has done absolutely nothing to further the development of any commuter rail lines and has instead gotten in the way of other groups like Harris County when they have tried to initiate some action. The voters in 2003 did not approve just a light rail plan; they approved a comprehensive, multimodal system. Metro, for its own reasons, has abandoned what the voters approved in favor of its own grandiose vision.

Additionally, it should be noted that the voters specifically restricted Metro to borrowing $640 million to build the light rail system. Metro now plans to subvert that limitation by entering into a sale/lease-back arrangement with a separate subsidiary and actually borrow more than four times what the voters approved. Metro is always quick to invoke the moral authority of the 2003 referendum but casually ignores its inconvenient restrictions.

Most people who have heard the Emperor's New Clothes story think the tale ends with the crowd bursting into laughter after the child cries out and the emperor running away embarrassed. But that is not how the story ends. Rather, the emperor shudders, fearing that the child is telling the truth, but nonetheless marches on with his courtiers trailing after him continuing to pretend to see his suit.

The question is whether we, as citizens and taxpayers, are going to demand that Metro live up to the 2003 referendum promising a multimodal transportation system that will address our ever-spiraling traffic congestion or whether we are going to allow Houston's courtiers to continue to march us toward a system that will financially cripple Metro, increase traffic congestion, gut any other transit initiatives for generations and destroy the bus system on which working families rely.

King is a frequent contributor to Outlook.
Its quite an eye-opener to see a heavily car- and freeway-centric city stumble so badly with LRT. US$100M per mile? ouch!

And they still can't figure out how to keep drivers from smacking into the street-running trains. Perhaps the drivers are trying break so many trains the LRT won't be able to run any more.

I really like how the rebuttals to Myth 1 state that running LRT on the streets have made traffic worse for both cross-traffic at intersections and the streets the LRT runs on.
     
     
  #2836  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2010, 3:50 AM
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^I think zwei would go nuts if he saw that
     
     
  #2837  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2010, 5:26 AM
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^I think zwei would go nuts if he saw that
I thought he already was nuts
     
     
  #2838  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2010, 7:37 AM
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As always, I love the Houston LRT as an example of why LRT on broadway is one of the more batty ideas I've ever heard. It's bad enough with morons who don't know how to drive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc Houston LRT's Greatest Hits

This video is all the proof you need that LRT is for the suburbs and not the main thoroughfares
     
     
  #2839  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2010, 7:42 AM
mrjauk mrjauk is offline
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Originally Posted by squeezied View Post
^I think zwei would go nuts if he saw that
No, he woudn't. He has stated repeatedly (under his many aliases) that creating more traffic congestion is a feature of the LRT, not a bug. It allegedly traffic "calms" streets and the increased congestion makes transit a relatively better alternative to the automobile. That is, people will be so frustrated sitting in traffic that they'll decide to ride the LRT instead.

As I posted on the City of Vancouver website in the survey questionnaire linked to higher up this thread, the only way to get people to switch from the automobile is to make transit absolutely (not relatively) better--cheaper, more efficient, quicker.

Last edited by mrjauk; Mar 31, 2010 at 7:49 AM. Reason: added "to the automobile"
     
     
  #2840  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2010, 8:02 AM
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I just noticed something very interesting on a map at the Containers project website, which jlousa linked to on the General Vancouver Updates thread.

Take a look just to the east of Main Street, between E. 1st and E. 2nd avenues--they have a future Millennium Line skytrain station located there. I've never heard anything about the line tracing that path. It would then presumably head straight south to E. Broadway and turn west from there. Is this just the Containers people trying to fool folks into believing that the Skytrain station will be located there in order to make the project more appealing?

http://www.containersonterminal.com/pages/map
     
     
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