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  #221  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2010, 9:06 PM
mooky mooky is offline
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You're all forgetting the examples in and around Edmonton which I believe lend credence to fact that no, they can stay autonomous.

St. Albert especially, is just a stones throw from Edmonton, pretty much across a field now, and its still a separate city of 57,700 people.

Also, Strathcona county and Sherwood Park are just a little further out and has a population of 61,600 .. so no, I don't believe there is any way to force a city the size of those or Airdrie to become a part of another larger metropolis.

That said, smaller towns and county ares its easier to get provincial approval to just annex them, people will possibly complain, but its a few hundred people so ... meh.... but with bigger jurisdictions you get into the psychological aspect of how people identify themselves and the uproar about "I moved out here to not be living in the big city" even though these same people obviously chose to not move _that far_ out so as to get the benefits of the big city.
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  #222  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2010, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mooky View Post
You're all forgetting the examples in and around Edmonton which I believe lend credence to fact that no, they can stay autonomous.

St. Albert especially, is just a stones throw from Edmonton, pretty much across a field now, and its still a separate city of 57,700 people.

Also, Strathcona county and Sherwood Park are just a little further out and has a population of 61,600 .. so no, I don't believe there is any way to force a city the size of those or Airdrie to become a part of another larger metropolis.

That said, smaller towns and county ares its easier to get provincial approval to just annex them, people will possibly complain, but its a few hundred people so ... meh.... but with bigger jurisdictions you get into the psychological aspect of how people identify themselves and the uproar about "I moved out here to not be living in the big city" even though these same people obviously chose to not move _that far_ out so as to get the benefits of the big city.
This is just the how the department of municipal affairs treats Calgary and Edmonton differently. According to the municipal government act, almost anything is possible. We could even have a mega city under one jurisdiction. Wouldn't be smart though.
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  #223  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2010, 10:38 PM
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This is just the how the department of municipal affairs treats Calgary and Edmonton differently. According to the municipal government act, almost anything is possible. We could even have a mega city under one jurisdiction. Wouldn't be smart though.
That's right. Municipalities in Canada are simply the result of an act of Provincial Government. Technically, the Province could abolish the city of Calgary tomorrow, and there wouldn't be any municipal government.

This was done in a way by the Ontario Provincial Government in 1998, when they merged seven cities into the City of Toronto. Toronto-proper's population went from 650,00 to 2,200,000 overnight, if I recall correctly. Cities that don't exist anymore include York, North York, and Etobicoke.
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  #224  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2010, 11:55 PM
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That's right. Municipalities in Canada are simply the result of an act of Provincial Government. Technically, the Province could abolish the city of Calgary tomorrow, and there wouldn't be any municipal government.

This was done in a way by the Ontario Provincial Government in 1998, when they merged seven cities into the City of Toronto. Toronto-proper's population went from 650,00 to 2,200,000 overnight, if I recall correctly. Cities that don't exist anymore include York, North York, and Etobicoke.
I believe Scarborough and East York were the other two municipalities amalgamated into Toronto. Don't see the same thing happening with Calgary, but the Province has made it clear that regional planning in both Calgary and Edmonton is a must.
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  #225  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 3:18 AM
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It's worth looking at the history of municipal governance in the Ottawa area because if you can think of a structure, we've had it at some point or it has been considered.

Until the 1970s, there was the City of Ottawa and it was surrounded by the County of Carleton. This is a bit of a digression, but in Ontario, counties are further divided into townships and towns, both of which elect councils. Towns and townships are effectively equal, though of course towns grow by annexing land from the surrounding township(s). Within the townships are villages, which are generally not self-governing but they are subject to special planning, and, as you might expect, once a village gets big enough it can become a town. The county council is made up of the reeves and deputy reeves of the townships and the mayors and deputy mayors of the towns. Cities are separate from a county and would nominally be considered to be "equal", though with far different responsibilities. As with towns, the cities grow by annexing township land (which also takes it away from the county).

So in the 1970s a couple of townships bordered the City of Ottawa - Nepean & Gloucester - with another two a little further out along the main highway, March in the west and Cumberland in the east. In the postwar environment these four townships grew as suburbs pretty much willy-nilly (Nepean being the worst since it had long been rendered much smaller and odd-shaped by earlier annexations). They were too big spatially to be towns and they had nothing like a "downtown" or town core anyway. Many of the planning powers were controlled by the county as well, which had more rural townships further out as well as the rural parts of the bordering townships. Meanwhile, the City of Ottawa was not too happy at all this suburban development and the use of its infrastructure, but annexations were unpopular amongst the suburbs.

That led to the Province creating the Regional Municipality of Ottawa-Carleton in the 1970s. What it did was it assigned higher-level planning powers and responsibilities to the "county" but made the City of Ottawa (and the smaller City of Vanier and the 'Village' of Rockcliffe - a village-sized city as far as governance was concerned - that were encircled by Ottawa) one of the constituent lower-tier municipalities along with the townships (there being no towns in the County of Carleton, though there were a pair of somewhat self-governing police villages that were dissolved into the surrounding township). The Regional Council was made to better reflect the populations of the municipalities. At this time, some of the townships became cities as well.

In time more powers were transferred to the Region, the councillors became directly elected, and then the Regional Chair. Of course suburban population growth continued to eat into the relative supremacy of Ottawa all the while that powers were being transferred, meaning that the importance of the Region in the overall governance of the region increased relative to that of all the lower tier municipalities, until, eventually, the entire thing and all the separate municipalities were dissolved and reconstituted/amalgamated as the current City of Ottawa, which now governs an area the size of a county. Effectively, we are now a city-region with direct planning control of our rural hinterland so we're finally able to put a lid on unplanned suburban and exurban development (other than what was already in the pipe at amalgamation, which was considerable - the townships went on a bit of a final-hour approval spree).

Since amalgamation, there has been talk of severing the rural areas, either into a reformed Carleton County or, more likely, annexing those lands to the next counties over (reconstituting an emaciated county from scratch that hasn't existed for 30 years with a major chip on its shoulder probably isn't a good idea). Simultaneously, there has also been talk of establishing boroughs within the city (either with or without the rural areas) for dealing with local concerns based on a sense that the City is too big and too unresponsive (and too distant in rural areas).

Given Calgary's size relative to its neighbours, any regional government would likely be dominated by Calgary for a good long time, but regional government also seems to be accompanied with an end to annexations since there is a bit of a quid pro quo that everyone cooperates within their existing boundaries. The RMOC experience also suggests that suburban arterial road construction and even rural road paving tends to get prioritized, claims otherwise notwithstanding. This is because the lower density areas tend to have a disproportionate share of the vote in regional governments and are able to overrule the votes of the inner city (which itself has suburban areas that think like places further out and vote accordingly). To this day, rural Ottawa is disproportionately represented on Council.

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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
I doubt we will ever annex Airdrie, we might just have a permanent boundary.
Can someone explain to me the difference in Alberta between towns and cities? Calgary now has a boundary with the Town of Chestermere. Is this substantially different from a future boundary with Airdrie? Is a town a "subordinate" level of government to the surrounding county/municipal district or is it wholly separate from it, like Calgary? I would think that for co-ordination - given the experience in Ottawa - that it's easier to deal with an "equal" like another city or a county than with a lower-tier municipality that has to answer to the county above it. If towns are wholly separate from the county, are there any powers or responsibilities that cities have that towns don't?
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  #226  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 3:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Can someone explain to me the difference in Alberta between towns and cities? Calgary now has a boundary with the Town of Chestermere. Is this substantially different from a future boundary with Airdrie? Is a town a "subordinate" level of government to the surrounding county/municipal district or is it wholly separate from it, like Calgary? I would think that for co-ordination - given the experience in Ottawa - that it's easier to deal with an "equal" like another city or a county than with a lower-tier municipality that has to answer to the county above it. If towns are wholly separate from the county, are there any powers or responsibilities that cities have that towns don't?
Essentially the difference comes down to what services are paid for by who. All are incorporated entities that exist due to the provincial law that allows them to. Some of the differences are that towns don't pay for maintenance of provincial highways within their jurisdiction, while cities do (with the exception of 2/201 in Calgary and 216 in Edmonton which are special cases). Counties/Muncipal Districts are essentially the same level as towns and cities, but are usually the ones used for picking apart during annexations (with the one odd example being an upcoming annexation involving the MD of Foothills and Calgary, in which the MD is annexing land from the city in exchange for the city annexing land from the MD elsewhere). This funding arguement is why some places that are far past the 'usual' cutoff for changing from one to another aren't. Strathcona County for instance has a fairly urban core, and a population twice that of Airdrie, but is still a county. Drumheller has bounced between town and city at least once, and others such as Okotoks and Cochrane both could become cities but have opted not to for sake of the costs involved.

Of course I'm sure theres someone here who's actually read the MGA and will correct me or add on to what I said (I read part of it once, don't remember anything though really)

Last edited by mersar; Mar 30, 2010 at 3:44 AM.
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  #227  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 5:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mersar View Post
Essentially the difference comes down to what services are paid for by who. All are incorporated entities that exist due to the provincial law that allows them to. Some of the differences are that towns don't pay for maintenance of provincial highways within their jurisdiction, while cities do (with the exception of 2/201 in Calgary and 216 in Edmonton which are special cases). Counties/Muncipal Districts are essentially the same level as towns and cities, but are usually the ones used for picking apart during annexations (with the one odd example being an upcoming annexation involving the MD of Foothills and Calgary, in which the MD is annexing land from the city in exchange for the city annexing land from the MD elsewhere). This funding arguement is why some places that are far past the 'usual' cutoff for changing from one to another aren't. Strathcona County for instance has a fairly urban core, and a population twice that of Airdrie, but is still a county. Drumheller has bounced between town and city at least once, and others such as Okotoks and Cochrane both could become cities but have opted not to for sake of the costs involved.

Of course I'm sure theres someone here who's actually read the MGA and will correct me or add on to what I said (I read part of it once, don't remember anything though really)
IIRC correctly, there are only slight differences in terms of legislation regarding counties, municipal districts, towns and cities. All of them have a government (reeve or mayor and council) and can pass laws according to the MGA (municipal government act). AFAIK the differences are in name only. Rockview County recently changed from M.D. of Rockyview for example. And Fort McMurray is actually the M.D. of Wood Buffalo, which incorporates a much, much larger area than just the city. The only legislation I know of though regarding the size of a jurisdiction is that at a population of 3500, the municipality needs to have a municipal development plan. Other than that, the diversity in municipalities in Alberta is pretty great.
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  #228  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 9:59 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by fusili View Post
IIRC correctly, there are only slight differences in terms of legislation regarding counties, municipal districts, towns and cities. All of them have a government (reeve or mayor and council) and can pass laws according to the MGA (municipal government act). AFAIK the differences are in name only. Rockview County recently changed from M.D. of Rockyview for example. And Fort McMurray is actually the M.D. of Wood Buffalo, which incorporates a much, much larger area than just the city. The only legislation I know of though regarding the size of a jurisdiction is that at a population of 3500, the municipality needs to have a municipal development plan. Other than that, the diversity in municipalities in Alberta is pretty great.
Every Municipality (regardless of size) must have a land use bylaw too. MGA section 639.
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  #229  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2010, 10:05 PM
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Every Municipality (regardless of size) must have a land use bylaw too. MGA section 639.
Ah yes, I forgot that. Every parcel of land in Alberta must have a land use district attached to it. I was so surprised to find out that this is not the case in other provinces.
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  #230  
Old Posted May 7, 2010, 4:07 PM
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Here's some info on Airdrie's InterCity Express (ICE) that starts up in September. Apparently it will go all the way downtown instead of just to the Northpointe terminal (it will still stop there).

http://www.airdrie.com/transit/other_services.cfm

Quote:
Airdrie Transit Commuter Service

Frequently Asked Questions:

When will the new commuter service begin?

The Intercity Express (ICE) service is scheduled to officially start September, 2010.

What is the proposed route?

The proposed route leaving Airdrie is Highway 2, connecting west via Stoney Trail and accessing Calgary via Centre Street. The route will continue into downtown Calgary and return to Airdrie using the same route.
Where will the ICE service connect with Calgary Transit?

The ICE bus will connect with key Calgary Transit hubs in the north and downtown. These include:

*
North Pointe: Route 8 (U of C)
*
78th Ave: Route 2 (17th Ave S)
*
40th Ave: Route 72/73 (Circle Route NE Industrial, U of C, Mount Royal, SE Industrial)
*
16th Ave: Route 19 (SAIT, Peter Lougheed, U of C)
*
7th Ave: LRT Connections

How much will the ICE service cost?

Exact fare details are still being determined and will be announced shortly.

Will the local transit connect with the ICE bus?

Absolutely. Airdrie Transit's local service will connect with the cities two primary transit hubs in Sierra Springs (South Terminal) and Gateway (North Terminal). These are primary pick-up/drop-off points for the ICE service.

Will there be park & ride facilities?

We are working to establish two park & ride facilities, one in the north in Gateway near the Real Canadian Superstore and a second in the south in Sierra Springs close to the Comfort Inn.
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  #231  
Old Posted May 7, 2010, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
Here's some info on Airdrie's InterCity Express (ICE) that starts up in September. Apparently it will go all the way downtown instead of just to the Northpointe terminal (it will still stop there).

http://www.airdrie.com/transit/other_services.cfm
Sigh.
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  #232  
Old Posted May 7, 2010, 6:29 PM
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Wouldn't it have made more sense to call it AISH (Airdrie InterCity Shuttle) ?
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  #233  
Old Posted May 7, 2010, 7:02 PM
mooky mooky is offline
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AISH is already an acronym, Assured Income for the Severely Handicapped.

unless your making a joke, in which case... damn Internets for not detecting tone!
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  #234  
Old Posted May 7, 2010, 7:40 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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^ Pretty sure the AISH comment was meant to draw the connection, since the ICE seems (at least spitballing) to be slow compared to a Deerfoot straight shot.
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  #235  
Old Posted May 8, 2010, 7:24 PM
TETT2 TETT2 is offline
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I just don't see "ICE" being very effective. The private buses take people straight to downtown. Not sure I want to be on a bus that has stops on its way.
Does anyone know the price structure yet? Transfers and paying twice 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 too.
And anyone know if people go from Calgary to Airdrie?
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  #236  
Old Posted May 8, 2010, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TETT2 View Post
I just don't see "ICE" being very effective. The private buses take people straight to downtown. Not sure I want to be on a bus that has stops on its way.
Does anyone know the price structure yet? Transfers and paying twice 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 too.
And anyone know if people go from Calgary to Airdrie?
Its the same model that StAT and SCT use in the Edmonton area. Stopping 4 times before downtown won't add pretty much any time to the trip considering its going down Centre street, and it adds connections for those who don't work downtown but live in Airdrie, which while I don't know the numbers could be a fair bit of ridership.
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  #237  
Old Posted May 8, 2010, 7:43 PM
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When I think of ICE I think of glorious red and white trainsets tearing through the countryside, not a bus crawling through suburbia. Ugh.
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  #238  
Old Posted May 9, 2010, 11:52 AM
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When I think of ICE I think of glorious red and white trainsets tearing through the countryside, not a bus crawling through suburbia. Ugh.
When I first saw ICE the first thing that popped into my head was an image of an ICE 3.
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  #239  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:10 AM
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We can only hope...

Speaking of Germany, I am hoping at least one of the candidates for mayor will have the guts to propose an S-Bahn like system for regional transit. I will elaborate on my thoughts on how this could be done at a later date, but I feel this would be the best way to integrate outlying towns while implementing a rapid transit system within the city.
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  #240  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:16 AM
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We can only hope...

Speaking of Germany, I am hoping at least one of the candidates for mayor will have the guts to propose an S-Bahn like system for regional transit. I will elaborate on my thoughts on how this could be done at a later date, but I feel this would be the best way to integrate outlying towns while implementing a rapid transit system within the city.
This is more the domain of the Calgary Regional Partnership as a whole rather than the City of Calgary (or its mayor, speaking on its behalf) alone.
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