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  #681  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2010, 6:29 PM
Hali_user Hali_user is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
On a seperate thought; I just came back from the Calgary Telus Convention Centre (I had some meetings there) and I'm going to try to post some pictures to give you guys a look at what Calgary has. The convention centre is apparently 2 parts, the main complex on the north side of 8th Ave SE and the south side (which is part of the Glenbow Museum complex) but I couldn't believe how many really small conference spaces there were! It's a very adaptive space, but there were lots of Oil and Gas presentations going on today!
The Calgary Convention Center is the only the 7th largest in Canada. It is full all the time though. Just for for reference Calgary is looking at expanding the convention center as well as it is not able to handle its current needs.

http://www.centrecitytalk.com/my_weblog/...tion-centre-hopes-to-triple-in-size.html

http://www.joconl.com/article/id32792
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  #682  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2010, 7:46 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by Hali_user View Post
The Calgary Convention Center is the only the 7th largest in Canada. It is full all the time though. Just for for reference Calgary is looking at expanding the convention center as well as it is not able to handle its current needs.

http://www.centrecitytalk.com/my_weblog/...tion-centre-hopes-to-triple-in-size.html

http://www.joconl.com/article/id32792
There have been a number of options they've talked about - because the current site is quite constrained. One option I've heard is building it above the CP train tracks - which would be interesting.

But getting back to Nova Centre; I'd like to see city council (for once) when considering a Development Agreement - really ask design questions. I don't know if they can, but I'd like to see that happen. Personally, if I were a councillor, I'd probably ask them to change the location of one of the towers like was suggested previously; to help the view from the hill.

One of the great things about the process out here is that design really has a lot of consideration. Calgary's Planning Commision approves all of the major buildings here in Calgary - in addition to rezonings. So when they apply for permit approval - it's reviewed and dealt with by a planner, but then the commission grills the planner (and the applicant and their reps) and can recommend changes, approve it or refuse it (like an approving authority). My favorite was a recent office tower; they fired it back to staff requiring changes because they didn't like some of the design features. HRM should start doing that more.
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  #683  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2010, 8:22 PM
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Some councillors have made design suggestions in the past but the ones I've heard have been almost universally bad, or at least produced bad results given project constraints. Many ask for things likes larger setbacks or faux heritage decoration glued on to modern buildings.

At the end of the day I think we have to be realistc about the expertise of the people who sit on council as well as the limitations of design by committee. I am happy that HbD has design guidelines and I think that is the best way to get good designs for simpler projects. Expert architects, planners, and engineers should be brought in for larger projects.
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  #684  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2010, 11:22 PM
Halifax Hillbilly Halifax Hillbilly is offline
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At the end of the day I think we have to be realistc about the expertise of the people who sit on council as well as the limitations of design by committee. I am happy that HbD has design guidelines and I think that is the best way to get good designs for simpler projects. Expert architects, planners, and engineers should be brought in for larger projects.
This site is exempt from HRMbyDesign's height limit, or could at least be thought of as a very big exception. Would this project, being a government project and very much a special case, be subject to design review? If so I think it could only be a good thing considering the size and scope of the project and importance of the site.
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  #685  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 12:08 AM
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I personally don't think that this view from the Citadel is terribly important; there's more of a view to the south and, historically speaking, the Citadel was designed to deal with land attacks, not attacks from the harbour.
I agree completely with someone123, this view from the Citadel is not important (and in fact was not within a viewplane). I liked this project right from the first time that I saw it and I still think that this is a great project. I would like to see it built as it is. Based on the comments when the renderings first came out, many others also liked it.

I thought that this project was already in the detailed design phase of the project.
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  #686  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 12:42 PM
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Another Save our View story, this time pretending to be in favour of a convention centre ( http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1173690.html ). I am becoming more and more convinced that this is one more project that is going to be scuttled, this time in order to save a view of the Dartmouth refinery.

Quote:
We need a new convention centre

By ALLAN LYNCH
Wed. Mar 24 - 4:53 AM


The last few weeks have seen a number of people who aren’t familiar with the Canadian meetings industry comment on the economics of a new convention centre for Halifax.

For the last 18 years, I’ve written about this industry for magazines in Canada and the United States. In Canada, this industry spends in excess of $9 billion a year.

In the last two years, because of the United States’ wonky economics, the industry has taken a hit and been unfairly disparaged by people who really don’t know what’s going on.

In the industry, it’s known as the AIG effect, based on the poor optics of insurance executives filmed at corporate functions after receiving taxpayer bailouts. What no one explained was that these events were contracted for long before the economy soured and would have to be paid for whether or not anyone attended.

An example of this impact occurred last January, when a national conference in Vancouver was cancelled. The conference price tag was $1.5 million, but the cancellation penalties amounted to $1.2 million. That would seem like a $300,000 savings. It wasn’t. The company still had to get their diverse sales force together, so one meeting was replaced by a series of four regional meetings, which meant paying for more travel, more meetings space, and having key people away from the office for longer periods. It was a false economy.

In Ralph Surette’s March 13th column in the Herald, he quoted Heywood Saunders, a professor of urban planning at the University of Texas, who asked why Halifax would succeed in this business when other destinations are suffering, and why businesses would choose Halifax over Ottawa, Niagara Falls and other destinations.

Valid questions. But what the professor doesn’t seem to know is the nature of the Canadian association market. Whatever the economic temperature, associations still have to meet. And Canada is rich in associations. Over 600 have head offices in Ottawa. To be democratic to their membership, these associations rotate their business across Canada. In any one year a destination can be bidding to win a share of 120 to 150 events. I’ve spoken to planners who have booked their meeting space for 2013, 2016 and are trying to nail down 2018. This is an industry that takes the long view to business.

Sadly for Halifax, a number of these groups have outgrown our venues and find themselves unwillingly limited to meeting in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. They want to go to other cities, but can’t.

Back when there was still a Reform Party of Canada, their corporate planner considered Halifax for their national convention. While the World Trade Centre had space for their formal meetings, there was no space capable of hosting their meals. Meals would have to held in the same ballroom as the business meetings. That meant losing several hours each day, and thousands of dollars in additional costs, to constantly tear down and set up the room.

Time is money, and groups want a seamless transition between functions. They can’t unleash 2,000 delegates into downtown Halifax at lunch time and expect everyone back in an hour for work. It has to be done in-house.

As for why a group would choose Halifax? Well, we used to have statistics proving that attendance was five-to-six-per-cent higher in coastal cities like Halifax or Vancouver. The seaside has more appeal for landlocked delegates than yet another business trip to the cement canyons of downtown Toronto.

The professor made reference to the decline in business in places like Las Vegas. Even with a decline, Vegas welcomed over a million conference goers last year. But Vegas’ problems are unique to it: it has a frivolous reputation in austere times; the new U.S. president made disparaging remarks (since withdrawn) about the city which frightened groups away; and the airline industry reduced the number of flights servicing the city by 15 per cent (in 2009 there were 369,767 fewer airline seats flying into that market).

As for those who believe the future is in cyber meetings, this technology has been around for 15 years and not caught on. It works for a short, tightly managed, in-house meeting, but doesn’t allow for productive networking and sales that come from face-to-face meetings. Nor does it build client relationships which are vital for business.

If face-to-face wasn’t important, there would be no need for G8 meetings or the Davos World Economic Forum which attracts 27 heads of state and 1,000 CEOs.

The Canadian economy is much different from the American economy and our industry is different from theirs. While we have suffered, it’s mostly been the hiccup effect of what has happened south of the border. American groups are now looking at ROI, return on investment, for their meetings. That’s been the driving force for Canadians for over a decade.

Do we need a new convention centre? Yes. Do we need one with a hotel and office towers attached? I don’t know.


I am one of those who worry about losing the view from the Citadel. I think most Nova Scotians assume they know what the view looks like these days, but how many Haligonians and city councillors have been to the Citadel in the last five years? Before we agree to lose what’s left of the view, I think people should take another look. It would be ironic to lose something that is a major draw to those we are trying to bring to the city.

We also need to talk about what will happen to the World Trade Centre. Will it remain or be declared surplus? If it is to be junked, couldn’t we use it for more hotel rooms (The Radisson was once an office building) or more office space? A tower in Scotia Square is about to come free with Nova Scotia Power’s move to the waterfront. And another developer is building a high rise in Historic Properties. Do we need more office space downtown?

In the 1960s and ’70s, conventional wisdom said we needed to be more like the rest of North America. The plan was to demolish derelict waterfront buildings, later to become Historic Properties, to build a four-lane highway along the waterfront to the container terminal, which is why we have the overpass to nowhere between the Delta Halifax and Trade Mart. The city would have been segregated from the water. What would Halifax look like had that happened? Would we have become a draw for cruise ships? Would we have the boardwalk or Maritime Museum? Could we have hosted the tall ships, this year’s naval review, or have space for the busker’s festival?

Convention centres in Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, London, Paris and other cities operate successfully by feeding business to their neighbours. If public money is to go into a new convention centre, then the public interest has to be accommodated in the business plan.

We need to take a breath and learn how to marry modern with ancient so we can keep what is authentic, unique and instills an interest in both corporate and individual visitors.

‘I am one of those who worry about losing the view from the Citadel. I think most Nova Scotians assume they know what the view looks like these days, but how many Haligonians and city councillors have been to the Citadel in the last five years? Before we agree to lose what’s left of the view, I think people should take another look.’

Allan Lynch has spent 18 years writing about the meetings and incentive industry for magazines in Canada and the United States.

Last edited by fenwick16; Mar 24, 2010 at 1:04 PM.
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  #687  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 12:52 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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A story about Premier Dexter's opinions (source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Editorial/1173820.html ). When I read it, I get the impression that Premier Dexter doesn't think that this is the "right project". The following lines near the end of the story:

Mr. Dexter said. "Convention centres, they don’t carry themselves in any jurisdiction, so far as I know. The question is one of economic benefit that comes from having them. So we want to have a pretty close look at that," he said.

"There is a lot of enthusiasm in Halifax for a new convention centre, and we feel it the same as everyone does. But … if you canvass the business community closely enough, they’ll say, ‘We just don’t want any project. We want a project that makes sense.’ "

"Mr. Dexter has hit the nail on the head."


Quote:
New convention centre: Dexter takes right tack


Wed. Mar 24 - 4:53 AM

DEBATE over a new convention centre for Halifax is heating up, as if in a convection oven. But Darrell Dexter is playing it cool.

"I have said all along that whatever project comes forward has to be the right project," the premier told The Chronicle Herald in a recent interview. "The only thing people have seen so far is a kind of a visual representation of what a proposal might look like."

We agree. An artist’s conception does not a concrete proposal make. Apart from how the view from the Citadel might be affected, there are many other factors to consider, not the least of which is economic viability. "We want to see the right business case," Mr. Dexter said. "The decision needs to be on the basis of fact and on an actual proposal. I mean, the convention centre has become a symbol rather than a reality."

The province is waiting to examine the nuts and bolts of Rank Group’s proposal for the former Herald building site. Without provincial support, and an investment of tens of millions of dollars of taxpayers’ money, the project won’t get off the ground. On April 19, Infrastructure Renewal Minister Bill Estabrooks is expected to make a recommendation to cabinet on whether to back the development, which could cost at least $300 million, once you factor in private investment in an adjacent hotel, plus an office tower and retail space.

The three levels of government are being tapped to kick in about one-third of the cost. HRM Mayor Peter Kelly is firmly in the camp of the convention-centre boosters, calling it a no-brainer because of the economic spinoffs the city stands to realize from increased visits. So far, Ottawa remains on the sidelines.

In the public arena, a healthy debate has erupted between citizens who believe debt-ridden governments can ill afford to sink more money into a P3 project and those who believe such a project would be the perfect catalyst for Halifax’s renaissance after decades of construction stagnation downtown.

Some analysts say the convention boosters are betting on the wrong horse — the industry is in decline, they claim, and will be further undermined by technology and climbing oil prices. Others argue Halifax is well-positioned to tap into the mid-sized convention market. Furthermore, it has a ready-made clientele in the plethora of national associations that hold annual meetings which are rotated around the country on a regular basis.

The current World Trade and Convention Centre does not fit the bill because it is too small. On the other hand, one should not expect a new convention centre to completely defray its own bills, or operating costs, Mr. Dexter said. "Convention centres, they don’t carry themselves in any jurisdiction, so far as I know. The question is one of economic benefit that comes from having them. So we want to have a pretty close look at that," he said.

"There is a lot of enthusiasm in Halifax for a new convention centre, and we feel it the same as everyone does. But … if you canvass the business community closely enough, they’ll say, ‘We just don’t want any project. We want a project that makes sense.’ "

Mr. Dexter has hit the nail on the head.

Last edited by fenwick16; Mar 24, 2010 at 1:02 PM.
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  #688  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 4:20 PM
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Why the hell do they all love that view so much?? It's not even that nice anymore. Tourists do not come here just to stand on top of citadel hill and look at the oil refinery and cargo ships going by. If they want a nice view go to peggys cove!
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  #689  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 5:19 PM
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Hitler reacts to convention centre opposition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybZJU94IVIA
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  #690  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 5:25 PM
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It was already posted in the general thread
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  #691  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 5:52 PM
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Has there been any update on the numbers for the various petitions? I posted them both on my facebook and got a very strong reaction in favour - so let's see what happens.
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  #692  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 5:56 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I just looked - For is closing in on 900; while against is around the 650.
I've heard through some friends (third hand) that apparently the HT is getting some nasty email's on their website and same with the save the view website.
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  #693  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 6:05 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
I just looked - For is closing in on 900; while against is around the 650.
I've heard through some friends (third hand) that apparently the HT is getting some nasty email's on their website and same with the save the view website.
Great to hear that you are doing what you can to promote this halifaxboyns. Since you are in Calgary and I am in the Toronto area, we can both see the great potential for this convention centre. To me, it is obvious that people will want to go to Halifax and Nova Scotia for a convention.

The numbers that I have are 578 against (save the view) and 898 for the convention centre.
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  #694  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 6:19 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Great to hear that you are doing what you can to promote this halifaxboyns. Since you are in Calgary and I am in the Toronto area, we can both see the great potential for this convention centre. To me, it is obvious that people will want to go to Halifax and Nova Scotia for a convention.

The numbers that I have are 578 against (save the view) and 898 for the convention centre.
2 shy of 900 - nice. I think it's time we start signing the names of dead relatives roflol. I'm joking of course, but after seeing a repeat of the Simpsons when Sideshow Bob won because of dead anything voting - just a thought.

I've always believed that government should have role in making a city great; in this case - yes it's risky, but any big project like this would be. So would be building the fast ferry or regional rail - what if people don't use it? You can't have progress without some level of risk. As a planner by profession, I'd love to come back to Halifax for a planning conference - there would be so many things you could talk about and focus on (including heritage). I mean the walking tours alone would be wonderful!
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  #695  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 10:27 PM
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How about this design for the hotel portion. It is about the same height (this one is 19 storeys) as the one proposed by Rank Corp. (source: http://www.jetsongreen.com/condominium/page/3/ ) . Hwoever, this is a condo instead of a hotel. It looks sharp to me and modern.



Description: The South Group recently announced that Luma, their newly completed residential project, received LEED Gold certification. The 19-story high-rise joins its sister building, Elleven, and becomes only the second condo in the state to receive the Gold level designation. Located in the South Park neighborhood of LA and with a total of 236 residences, LUMA saves 30% more energy over Title 24 2001 standards and consumes roughly 751,000 gallons less water annually than a comparable tower. The posh, green tower was built with low-VOC everything, and as you would expect, recycled and locally-sourced materials.
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  #696  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 10:39 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
How about this design for the hotel portion. It is about the same height (this one is 19 storeys) as the one proposed by Rank Corp. (source: http://www.jetsongreen.com/condominium/page/3/ ) . Hwoever, this is a condo instead of a hotel. It looks sharp to me and modern.



Description: The South Group recently announced that Luma, their newly completed residential project, received LEED Gold certification. The 19-story high-rise joins its sister building, Elleven, and becomes only the second condo in the state to receive the Gold level designation. Located in the South Park neighborhood of LA and with a total of 236 residences, LUMA saves 30% more energy over Title 24 2001 standards and consumes roughly 751,000 gallons less water annually than a comparable tower. The posh, green tower was built with low-VOC everything, and as you would expect, recycled and locally-sourced materials.
Wasn't there some concern about the orientation of the tower? I think I mentioned it in an earlier post, that I would turn the tower portions slightly - if it would help retain some view from the road (gesture of good will if you will). But I do like the style - we have a lot of buildings like that out here in Calgary!
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  #697  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 10:41 PM
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It occured to me while I was walking at lunch - there may be a real simple solution to all this; which may take the public input option out.

Back in the day - when the Saddledome was being proposed for Calgary - there was so much controversy about it (but the need was there); that it got so heated. Evenutally the minister for Municipal Affairs (who had the power under provincial legislation) gave the development an exemption - thus not requiring public input or consultation and away it went. There were court cases, which upheld the minister's decision - since he had the power to do it.

So - if the government really felt this was all important; couldn't they do the same thing under the MGA in Nova Scotia? I seem to recall reading something like that in the legislation. If not; then amend it and then do it.

Just a thought.
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  #698  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 10:48 PM
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Since it has already been incorporated into the Downtown Halifax Land Use By-Law, can't they just go ahead with the heights as proposed? I have even seen a diagram somewhere in the HRMbyDesign document which became the Downtown Halifax Land Use By-Law, 2009.

There is less detail on the design aspect so it could be altered from the rendering.
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  #699  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 11:00 PM
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The proposal isn't being held up by the regulatory process, it's being held up by a lack of funding coming from the province. This project was introduced by the last government and Dexter hasn't made any commitments. If he wanted it built he could circumvent anything done by the HRM.
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  #700  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2010, 11:08 PM
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The proposal isn't being held up by the regulatory process, it's being held up by a lack of funding coming from the province. This project was introduced by the last government and Dexter hasn't made any commitments. If he wanted it built he could circumvent anything done by the HRM.
That is what I thought regulatory wise. Money wise - that sucks.
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