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  #2701  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 7:18 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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I think its silly to have a train reverse into the eastbound tracks, wait to change passengers, and then return to Braid and other Millennium stations. And while doing so, this train is blocking other eastbound traffic coming from VCC through Lougheed.

There's already an unfinished platform and trackbed north of the main platform that can be finished and used for terminating trains. While the terminated trains are waiting to re-enter service, the main Lougheed platform is available for through-running service.
     
     
  #2702  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 7:38 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Using the photos from The Model Shop, I have realised that I was thinking of the wrong unfinished trackbed that was already starting to rise up to twist over the other Evergreen track on their way to North Road. Part of the problem is the interesting bits of the switches and tracks east of Lougheed station (at the top of the photo) are right at the top edge of the photo, and can easily be missed.

However, with the new switches and track at 158 and 158A, the new Evergreen tracks can be simplified in their construction, and can remove the need for twist-over construction, extra cross-overs and 'wrong-rail' running. Any 'wrong-rail' running can be kept within the area of Lougheed station where workers would be more aware of train movements.

Millennium Line routing as we are familiar with it today.


Evergreen Line routing through Lougheed Station without needing a twist-over design for the track bed, nor a substantial length of ‘wrong-rail’ running along these tracks to North Road. This will need a new pair of switches (labelled 158 and 158A), and new track between them. Because the unfinished trackbed east of switch 155 was built with the expectation to rise above and twist over the other Evergreen track, the easternmost 2 segments of existing trackbed will have to be removed and rebuilt level with the rest of the tracks east of Lougheed station in order to make room for the new switches 158 and 158A and connecting track. Any crossover between tracks happens within the Lougheed Station area, so workers in the area will be aware of train movements.


Evergreen Line trains from Douglas College terminating at Lougheed. While resting at the Lougheed terminal platform before returning to the Douglas College terminal, other trains can run through Lougheed using the main platform.


Millennium Line trains from Columbia terminating at Lougheed. While resting at the Lougheed terminal platform before returning to New West, Burnaby and Vancouver, other trains can run through Lougheed using the main platform.


An unusual routing of Millennium Line trains from VCC terminating at Lougheed. While resting at the Lougheed terminal platform before returning to VCC terminal, other trains can run through Lougheed using the main platform.


My guess of how Coquitlam trains from VCC, Vancouver and Burnaby were supposed to get to the ‘Coquitlam’ platform (north of the existing main platform) by crossing over to the westbound tracks and then over to the ‘Coquitlam’ platform tracks. After leaving the ‘Coquitlam’ platform, the train would continue eastbound & take switch 155 to cross over to the Evergreen Eastbound (and northbound) tracks. This is quite an unusual setup, and may never be used if the main platform can be used for all Evergreen line (VCC to Douglas College) and Millenium line (VCC to Columbia, Metrotown and Waterfront) routes, and the 3rd platform can be used for terminating some services at Lougheed.



Photo of the Lougheed Station model courtesy of The Model Shop.
     
     
  #2703  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 9:14 AM
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so i don't get the extra platform - if i am coming from new west or from boradway to the main platform i would have to walk down the escalator and go up to the lone platform in the north and than continue onto coq centre?
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  #2704  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 3:54 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
so i don't get the extra platform - if i am coming from new west or from boradway to the main platform i would have to walk down the escalator and go up to the lone platform in the north and than continue onto coq centre?
That was the original idea: The unfinished 3rd platform and tracks would have been completed and used for all Coquitlam-bound trains.

Instead, with my routings, all trains running through Lougheed will use the main platform. ie: from Columbia, the Millennium Line train to VCC stops at the usual westbound platform. You would exit & walk across to the eastbound side & wait for an Evergreen Line VCC-to-Douglas College train to arrive. You might have to wait for an eastbound Millennium Line VCC-to-Columbia train to arrive & leave before your Evergreen Line to Douglas College shows up.

This would be the easiest transfer between lines when compared to the hikes involved when changing platforms at Columbia or Broadway/Commercial


The unfinished 3rd platform and tracks can instead be completed and used as the Lougheed terminal platform for a train that finishes it's run at Lougheed. ie: the Millennium Line train from Vancouver, Metrotown & Columbia terminates at Lougheed instead of continuing on to VCC. At the same time the Evergreen Line trains are running end-to-end from VCC through Lougheed to Douglas College (and vise-versa). Coming from Columbia you would leave the Terminal platform, go down to the mezzanine and up to the main platform to catch your Evergreen train going east to Douglas College or west to VCC. Or you could be using the Evergreen Line from VCC or Douglas College and arrive on the main platform, go down to the mezzanine & up to the terminal platform to catch the Millennium train going to Braid, Columbia, &tc.
     
     
  #2705  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 3:58 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
so i don't get the extra platform - if i am coming from new west or from boradway to the main platform i would have to walk down the escalator and go up to the lone platform in the north and than continue onto coq centre?
That's my problem with using the extra platform - we should never want a passenger to have to go down&up to make their connection. The only reason to use 3 platforms is if the frequencies will be too high to use 2 platforms. Based on the information we now have for Evergreen, the frequencies will never be high enough to require 3 platforms. Even short-turn trains can be accommodated with 2 platforms at the frequencies that are being proposed. Since we use 70-80 metre trains now, we will probably never see 2-minute or better frequencies at Lougheed in our lifetimes.
     
     
  #2706  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 4:10 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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With Evergreen being built, a decision may be made to not finish the 3rd platform because it's not needed for now.

It may also be decided to finish the trackbeds at Lougheed so trains can be stored at the unfinished 3rd platform - just like how trains are stored at Stadium's finished (and abandoned) 3rd platform between the rush hours. It may be easier to inject an extra train from Lougheed than send it from Edmonds or another storage track.

Which reminds me ... with the platform extensions being done to handle longer trains, are the storage tracks between the main tracks already long enough to handle the longer trains? I don't remember learning anything about that.
     
     
  #2707  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 5:21 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
Which reminds me ... with the platform extensions being done to handle longer trains, are the storage tracks between the main tracks already long enough to handle the longer trains? I don't remember learning anything about that.
Since platform extensions only occur on the Expo Line, the Expo Line is the only one that needs to be extended. Looking at Google Maps, the storage tracks are ~80 metres right now, however, each one already has ~20 metres space allocated for extension. If you look at the ones at Nanaimo and Metrotown, there's this "grey" area that follows one of the ends of the storage track. The closest switch needs to be moved to that end, gaining enough space for longer trains.
     
     
  #2708  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 6:14 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Extending a storgae track would be very difficult given the disruption it would cause to mainline service durig construction. My guess is that if they are shortturning trains, they would just use a shorter train that can use the storage track to shortturn.

Nice diagrams jsbertram!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
The unfinished 3rd platform and tracks can instead be completed and used as the Lougheed terminal platform for a train that finishes it's run at Lougheed. ie: the Millennium Line train from Vancouver, Metrotown & Columbia terminates at Lougheed instead of continuing on to VCC. At the same time the Evergreen Line trains are running end-to-end from VCC through Lougheed to Douglas College (and vise-versa). Coming from Columbia you would leave the Terminal platform, go down to the mezzanine and up to the main platform to catch your Evergreen train going east to Douglas College or west to VCC. Or you could be using the Evergreen Line from VCC or Douglas College and arrive on the main platform, go down to the mezzanine & up to the terminal platform to catch the Millennium train going to Braid, Columbia, &tc.
This is worse than what is currently planned. With the three assigned platforms, a passenger travelling from Douglas to Columbia would make a cross-platform transfer on the main platform (walk to the other side of the centre patform). The only up and down transfer would be for a passenger travelling from Columbia to Douglas. With your scenario, all passengers to and from Columbia on a short-turning train would have to walk up and down to and from the third platform.

As planned, passengers would practically never have to transfer from the Columbia-bound to the Douglas-bound because you would wait at your originating platform for a Douglas-bound train. This up and down transfer would be a non-issue. Passnegrs on the wrong train could also avoid the up and down be transferring at ay station before Lougheed.

Apart from the additional up and down transfers, the main concern that may arise with using the third platform only for short-turning trains is that you may end up with trains having a common destination departing from two separate platforms (the "Lower Bay" problem that the TTC in Toronto experienced).
i.e. if a train from VCC pulls into the third platform to short-turn, it will then return to VCC from the third platform (unless it uses a "tail-track" maneouvre). In addition to forcing any remaining passengers to walk the up and down to get to the main platform to continue their trips, that also means that a passenger waiting to depart to VCC on the main platform will miss that train. Signage directing passengers to the "next train" on the correct platform would not be practical because of different walking speeds and the infrequency of trains using the third platform (i.e. if the sign says "go to third platform", and the passenger misses that short-turning train, he/she is screwed and (if he/she is aware) has to turn around and go to the main platform.)

I think that given the practical certainty of some trains (from whichever direction) short-turning at Lougheed, assigning the platforms by destination provides passengers with certainty as to where they need to go to catch a particular train.

Last edited by officedweller; Mar 22, 2010 at 6:29 PM.
     
     
  #2709  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 7:03 PM
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Looking at the overview map of these complicated switches at Lougheed I cannot figure out why they ever thought such a complicated station was required. A fly over is not that expensive if you consider the amount that switches themselves cost to install, added to the large maintenance costs associated with so many switches. And can you imagine the chaos if just one of them fails? You could even just have a short single track section from Lougheed to the double track that runs up North Road -- using the existing switches if this flyover is so unfavoured.

If the C Line functions with one centre platform at Bridgeport, why does Lougheed require such a crazy setup? Simply have all trains use the existing centre platform, run trains from VCC to Douglas, with maybe ever 3rd train running to VCC to Waterfront. If someone needs to transfer at Lougheed, no biggie, just get off the train and wait (regardless of which direction you are coming from). This also allows for easy integration of short turns, trains out of service, etc. In fact, in it's current pattern, Lougheed station is better than Brideport in that it already has cross overs on both sides of the platform (unlike Bridgeport, which only has one on the one side) allowing way more flexibility without ever needing this third platform to be built.
     
     
  #2710  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 7:56 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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I still figure that it's becuase of the "need" to short-turn trains in the station.

The ability to short-turn trains without impacting through trains would also facilitate a through service from Coquitlam to Columbia.

Remember that the original plans (i.e. the plans under the LRSP) were for the Lougheed station to be oriented north-south with the wye opening up to the south (not to the east, as built). That would have allowed two routes - Douglas to Columbia trains and Douglas to VCC. The "T" line under the LRSP shows a direct route from Douglas to Columbia (to serve Surrey from Coquitlam with only one transfer) and with the Broadway line terminating at Lougheed (the "T" is sideways).
When the plans for Lougheed Station were changed to an east-west station (likely because of the phasing of the lines to eliminate an in and reverse-out movement) - the functionality of the lines requiring a Douglas to Columbia routing was probably maintained as a design requirement.
     
     
  #2711  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 8:04 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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I think Lougheed as it was originally designed was more complicated than it needed to be with a 3rd platform dedicated to Coquitlam-bound trains and having the Coquitlam Eastbound tracks that rise up and twist over the westbound tracks on their way to North Road.

Removing the beginning of the rising trackbed and rebuilding it level with the rest of the tracks, and letting it operate as a flat junction may be the simplest way to get Evergreen and Millennium trains running through Lougheed without the need for a 3rd platform.

Right now, if you're on an Expo train from Waterfront but want to go to Sapperton, exit at Columbia & wait for the next Millennium train. No platform change needed. If you're coming from King George and going to Sapperton, you'll exit at Columbia, leave the westbound platform & go up to the eastbound platform to wait for the next Millennium train.

With Evergreen and Millennium trains running through Lougheed, to change lines you would just exit at Lougheed and wait for your train to arrive. If you're changing directions too, just exit at Lougheed, walk across the platform and wait for the right train to arrive. Every change of train would be a same-platform transfer.

This is already happening at Bridgeport: If you've landed at YVR and are heading to Lansdowne, exit the train at Bridgeport, walk across the platform and catch the next Brighouse train. If you grabbed the first train coming through Oakridge to get to Aberdeen and you've realised you're on the YVR train, exit at Bridgeport, stay on the same side of the platform & jump on the next Brighouse train.

The only use I can see for the 3rd platform is to accommodate large volumes of traffic as a way of separating Coquitlam-bound traffic from New-West -bound traffic, but this would likely be decades away.
     
     
  #2712  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 9:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
Right now, if you're on an Expo train from Waterfront but want to go to Sapperton, exit at Columbia & wait for the next Millennium train. No platform change needed. If you're coming from King George and going to Sapperton, you'll exit at Columbia, leave the westbound platform & go up to the eastbound platform to wait for the next Millennium train.

With Evergreen and Millennium trains running through Lougheed, to change lines you would just exit at Lougheed and wait for your train to arrive. If you're changing directions too, just exit at Lougheed, walk across the platform and wait for the right train to arrive. Every change of train would be a same-platform transfer.

This is already happening at Bridgeport: If you've landed at YVR and are heading to Lansdowne, exit the train at Bridgeport, walk across the platform and catch the next Brighouse train. If you grabbed the first train coming through Oakridge to get to Aberdeen and you've realised you're on the YVR train, exit at Bridgeport, stay on the same side of the platform & jump on the next Brighouse train.

The only use I can see for the 3rd platform is to accommodate large volumes of traffic as a way of separating Coquitlam-bound traffic from New-West -bound traffic, but this would likely be decades away.
It does seem simple to have both lines interlined, but I can see where the problem is. It's not with excess volume, but the lack thereof.

Right now, if you are at Commercial heading to Braid, you get on the next train. With Evergreen line interlined with Millennium line, at Commercial, you have to wait for a Millennium train.

Lets say a M-Train just left as you ran down the stairs and just missed it. With average frequencies, that's a 4 minute wait until the next Evergreen train, and another 4 minute wait until M-Train. If it were 2 EV trains for every 1 M train you are looking at a 12 minute wait. (assuming 4 minute headways and not longer/shorter). Even if you hopped on the first EV train you would still have to wait that 12 minutes combined at Commercial and Lougheed.

With trains short turning at Lougheed on 3 platforms, you can have 4 minute frequency of both Evergreen line AND the shuttle at the same time without running empty trains on the rest of the line using up expensive rolling stock and electricity. By short turning trains you can use less rolling stock while maintaining consistent headways on the system.

I used to be in the interlining camp, but after thinking about it, it does seem like the average total trip would be shorter with Transfers (as long as the shuttle was still frequent and not some every 20 minute inconvenience).

And at Lougheed, the majority of time critical transfers (you know, the morning transfers on your way to work/school when you are late) will happen cross platform; evening (on the way home transfers) will happen down/up stairs.

If trains from Columbia terminate at Lougheed, then people to SFU will cross platform transfer to a westbound train on the Center track. People coming from Douglas can cross platform transfer to a train to Columbia on the South Track. That would be over 3/4 of all transfers be cross platform in the morning when people are in a hurry.

If it were a shuttle and there was no 3rd platform at Columbia, the shuttle could enter the station on the westbound platform, leave heading west, switch tracks and reenter the station on the eastbound platform; much like it does at Waterfront, King George and VCC. The train would spend less time blocking other trains, and offer a transfer point at both platforms, removing the need to use any stairs to switch trains.

The advantage of this layout at Lougheed is that it does allow trains to become through trains without confusing riders at Lougheed. All the platforms will still have trains that go to their proper destinations and any transfer would happen like normal (there would be cases of reduced transfers but no extras). This will be good for those situations where a segment of track needs to be closed to "medical emergency" thus preventing trains to flow from Waterfront <-> Columbia. Running trains from VCC <-> Columbia would be useful in a crisis, thus lowering the number of transfers needed at Lougheed to a limited capacity shuttle.

It's interesting to note that if the M-line were extended to the Canada Line that there would be 2 independent, mass transit ways of getting out of downtown, offering redundancy in case of a crisis that shuts down one of the lines.
     
     
  #2713  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 9:40 PM
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All of these concerns are interesting, but somehow they were deemed unimportant at Bridgeport, and we ended up with a better - and cheaper - station there because of it. Lougheed just seems like an impending mess to me.
     
     
  #2714  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 10:12 PM
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While all of you are spending hours trying to come up with a solution for the Lougheed junction, there are engineers and designers getting paid to figure it out. Just to let you all know.
     
     
  #2715  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
All of these concerns are interesting, but somehow they were deemed unimportant at Bridgeport, and we ended up with a better - and cheaper - station there because of it. Lougheed just seems like an impending mess to me.
People already complain having to wait 8 minutes or more to get to Richmond from Vancouver. I'm lucky and never had to ride the spurs everyday, but ask people from Richmond and I bet they'll tell you the 7 1/2 minute wait sucks.

But the Canada Line is a bit different than Millennium and Evergreen. Just the "spur" of the Evergreen line would be about as long as the trunk of the Canada Line. Also, usage is high on both spurs of the Canada Line, warranting a 1:1 ratio, and excess capacity on the trains from the spurs is gobbled up by demand on the trunk in Vancouver. Trains from Richmond arrive at Bridgeport Full, and trains from the airport are full when they leave Bridgeport. Canada Line is also exceeding ridership projections and will need to have frequencies improved to carry more people, which helps the case of interlined spurs.

The station might be cheaper, but in the case of Evergreen/Millennium, you are going to need a lot more rolling stock compared to Canada Line to keep adequate headways on the spurs. Saving a few million on station construction will result in the need of tens of millions worth of extra trains. The resulting capacity on Lougheed <-> VCC will far exceed demand. So you will either end up with infrequent trains at Douglas and Braid, or half empty trains on Lougheed <-> VCC.
     
     
  #2716  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 10:55 PM
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I agree that adding the Evergreen Line will have a synergistic effect. There will be more riders across the entire system because of it. Just like with the Canada Line, there will be people from the tri-cities using Skytrain that never used it before, and they will be going to all sorts of destinations. There will also be new trips from all over Metro Vancouver into the tri-cities because will become much much more convenient to get there.
     
     
  #2717  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by red-paladin View Post
I agree that adding the Evergreen Line will have a synergistic effect. There will be more riders across the entire system because of it. Just like with the Canada Line, there will be people from the tri-cities using Skytrain that never used it before, and they will be going to all sorts of destinations. There will also be new trips from all over Metro Vancouver into the tri-cities because will become much much more convenient to get there.
I don't know.. are there really a lot of destinations out in the tri-cities that people will visit?

It's nothing compared to the options and traffic that would happen on a UBC extension.
     
     
  #2718  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2010, 11:33 PM
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People already complain having to wait 8 minutes or more to get to Richmond from Vancouver. I'm lucky and never had to ride the spurs everyday, but ask people from Richmond and I bet they'll tell you the 7 1/2 minute wait sucks.
Ok, but based on the current ridership of Columbia-to-Lougheed, there will never be a need for high frequency on that part of the network. So why can't we just lower the priority of that segment, and run only every 3rd or 4th train toward that segment, or just run a shuttle. Most ridership (and therefore most trains) will always be going Douglas-VCC. The ridership pattern isn't complicated enough to justify making Lougheed complicated.

Quote:
The station might be cheaper, but in the case of Evergreen/Millennium, you are going to need a lot more rolling stock compared to Canada Line to keep adequate headways on the spurs.
The Evergreen project plan promises 3-minute service at peak hour. I calculated that it takes 22 trains to provide 3-minute service (with no layover at each end) from VCC to Douglas and back, and 5 more trains to provide 3-minute shuttle service Columbia-Lougheed.

Based on ridership projections, at 3 minute service, these trains will not need to be 4-car trains on opening day. With the flexibility to run 4-6 car trains, Millennium/Evergreen will have a huge amount of surplus capacity to meet future ridership growth, without ever surpassing 3 minute service.

Therefore, Lougheed doesn't need to be built for any more than 3 minute service going to/from the west, + possible turnback trains from Columbia depending on how the trains are configured to run to the east.

Lougheed can easily fit this on the existing platforms. Building the 3rd platform buys us, what? A less convenient transfer for a few people, is the only thing I can think of.

Quote:
The resulting capacity on Lougheed <-> VCC will far exceed demand.
This problem will solve itself once the line is extended further west... We will need that capacity on the "Millennium trunk" sooner or later.
     
     
  #2719  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2010, 1:20 AM
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MoT issued two more RFPs today for Property Acquisition in relation to the Evergreen line. Still no shovels in the ground but I'm fairly confident the shovels are in the process of being ordered.
     
     
  #2720  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2010, 1:35 AM
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Nice to see the prospects for this look promising, I''m happy something is happening in the city rapid transit related, but I was still secretly hoping for this deal to fall apart and the M line extension to go ahead first.

Oh well Evergreen isn't a bad consolation prize.
     
     
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