ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Remember the ATL has had the MARTA for 30 or 40 years so it's not like they don't have all kind of rails already. About 10 times more than any other place outside of New York City and Washington, DC and such. It's not like the MARTA is being overused up anyway, you can easily go to a lot of these stations and they're sitting there without a whole lot going on around them. All I'm saying is use up what you got first and when it's close to full you can start building new ones, but we are a long way from that.

naturally, marta was set up to be a constrained system. it was set up to fail. kindof like your parents buying you a big wheel and saying "hey there little fella/gal, there ya go, you're set for life now with that big ole new plastic big wheel, you can just tool around allover the darn city with that thing for life."

it's the poor leadership and lack of executive direction in the state of georgia since the 1980's that has allowed marta to become a remnant of what it could have been and was originally intended. look to the metro in DC to see what could have been.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well talk about falling behind. Here we can't even get a little streetcar going for a few miles, meanwhile the Chinese are working on putting a high speed rail network to Europe in the next 10 years. What in the Sam Hill is this country doing?

where are you on this one cybele?

help me understand your position.

would you support the chinese model of high speed rail here in america?

[BlindFatSnake]

The only dag burn thang Cybele and Dante and Fiorenza support is MORE MONEY in their pockets at the cost/risk of others having to suffer.

Cancer research doesn't directly benefit me or AIDS reserach, but I'm all for being taxed to help the human race...

We in Georgia are stuck on "What's in it for me mentality", especially when it may help the poor Negroes in downtown and southside ATL. What a bunch of sorry bastards.

I've come to realize that the state (choked full of rednecks) is SIMPLY pissed because their captial is BLACK. Get over it. We all live in the state together, and we'll all watch as this black/white issue chokes the f*ck out of the greatest economic engine in the south.

[dante2308]

Wow, I was under the impression that Cybele and Fiorenza had completely different views hence the million post argument (some woudl say debate) that got shut down.

BFS, I would rather you not make this about race thank you. Your own racism makes it ironic and sad, but it certainly isn't helping the issue.

I think that the private industry should be involved in the expansion of transit. The concept of "public" transit in of itself stalls innovation and fixes the process to a political hell where MARTA has to throw a fit for 6 years just to have the state ignore it as it runs out of money. Maybe we should privatize MARTA and several other transit systems, allow foreign transit companies in, and let the wheels of capitalism bring in the services that we would NEVER get otherwise.

I would even support a subsidy supported by tax-payers as long as the companies aren't state run or subject to the whims of Perdue. In fact I think the best model is for the government to create private-public partnerships to build rail lines and to rent them to service companies. that includes high speed rail. In a perfect world, that would also include the highway system.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

where are you on this one cybele?

help me understand your position.

would you support the chinese model of high speed rail here in america?

Well, yep I sure would. Number one, you can't let the Chinese get ahead in everything or this country will be toast if it's not already. Number 2, I am a big believer in the high speed rail thing since I grew up riding them. It's a good way to get from point A to point B although the airlines will fight it tooth and toenail. What you've got to have is A, the need for it and 2, a good balance with roads and such. Many people will still need to drive since you can't take a dog or a motorhome on a train, for instance. So you can't go whole hog on the high speed light rail thing, it's not some magic bullet.

[STrek777]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well it looks like the state government is trying to knock the GDOT out of the whole high speed light rail thing.

State Senators upset with GDOT’s lack of progress on alternative transportation

Why weren't the train systems in America ever modified to reflect the "hub and spoke" system that the airlines follow? Remarkably it's still not to late to do so with the introduction of high speed rail! It is an extremely simple model and it would connect every state to each other, everyone would be able to share in the profits.

If Atlanta had the foresight it would build a massive train station to accommodate this and be known as a transportation hub of America. We already have a vast network of interstate and highways, we have the worlds busiest airport, and we could have one of America's largest train hubs.

Just start in Atlanta and build a line from Atlanta to each of the surrounding capitols: BNA, BHM, TLH, CAE, RDU! Each state could collect the taxes and revenues of the passengers boarding in their state. An interstate trasit fee could be collected from passengers that book travel from say BNA to TLH but transit ATL to help pay for upkeep of the tracks that those passengers would be using. It is a win win for all parties involved!

Each state could then be allowed to spend the revenues to invest in even more high speed rail. Atlanta to Athens, Macon, Savannah, Columbus, Dalton, etc. Each of those cities would get to keep the revenues they collect from passengers boarding in their cities and GA could impose an inner-state transit fee to cover the upkeep of those rails. Again win win for all involved!

Then those cities would have the revenue to invest in even more high speed rail: Savannah to Valdosta, Jacksonville, Charleston, Macon, etc.

See where I'm going with this?!?!?!

Capitol cities feed to cities feed to small cities and all are collecting revenue, all are generating tens of thousands of jobs, and high speed rail over time connects America. It's the "hub and spoke" system! Why it's not being considered is beyond me!

[dante2308]

Hub and spoke had everyone fly through Atlanta regardless of where they came from or where they were going. Thats fine at Mach 0.86 but traveling at 116 miles an hour or more likely 70 miles per hour, detours that come with hub and spokes take far too much time. It make sense to build HSR wherever the biggest level of inter-state(meaning between state) road or train traffic is so that people actually benefit versus their normal modes.

Air travel is mass transit and cheaper than HSR. I wonder if this isn't all just going to be an exercise is how to lose a lot of money. In Japan, the HSR network went bankrupt repeatedly and they are much more likely to use a train than we are.

[llamaorama]

The high construction costs bankrupted the original JNR but I believe its spin-offs that exist in the present day are all mostly private and make profits, right?

But realistically who cares, Atlanta isn't Tokyo and nothing is going to be built anyways.

[dante2308]

Japanese HSR is mostly profitable except for the new lines and ones built in low traffic areas. Atlanta may get funding for HSR only to be obstructed by our own government. I think the fact that Atlanta isn't in the first batch makes the chances a little lower. By the time Atlanta is considered for funding, I'm sure the system will be losing money.

In fact I guarantee that the system in the southeast wont make money before 2030.

[BlindFatSnake]

Originally Posted by dante2308

BFS, I would rather you not make this about race thank you. Your own racism makes it ironic and sad, but it certainly isn't helping the issue.

I think that the private industry should be involved in the expansion of transit. The concept of "public" transit in of itself stalls innovation and fixes the process to a political hell where MARTA has to throw a fit for 6 years just to have the state ignore it as it runs out of money. Maybe we should privatize MARTA and several other transit systems, allow foreign transit companies in, and let the wheels of capitalism bring in the services that we would NEVER get otherwise.
..

If you don't think MARTA's fight with the state is about RACE, than you are a hopeless wanna-be Negro. Everything from the re-creation of Milton county to NO STATE MONEY for MARTA boils down to RACE.

One of my white neighbors said he voted for Mary Norwood because he believed the state would help Atlanta if a white woman was running the show.

I'm a realist not a blindfolded dreamer... Dante, if you can get your head outta your crack long enough to smell some fresh air, maybe you'll come to your senses and she life for what it is. Life is not a pipe dream, dude!!!

[dante2308]

How offensive. I wonder what happened to you.

You realize you're the most openly racist person here right? That makes you part of the problem for either race.

[echinatl]

Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake

I'm a realist not a blindfolded dreamer... Dante, if you can get your head outta your crack long enough to smell some fresh air, maybe you'll come to your senses and she life for what it is. Life is not a pipe dream, dude!!!

You're also kind of a jerk.

[BlindFatSnake]

Most people have a problem talking openingly about RACE - those people are usually the racist. I approach everybody with an open mind. It's what they present that determines whether we get along.

I never turn the other cheek, but I quickly return a retort.
I have many friends of all races, backgrounds and sexual preferences.

Echinatl, yeah you're right - I am kinda a jerk. We need some jerks in the world to keep the jerkoffs in check. Sorta like the repugs and the dems - a check and balance system that is seriously flawed. Get in where you fit in, eh?

[dante2308]

I'm a wanna be negro? What does that even mean? I want to get back to a productive conversation on transit, but I want to get this question quickly answered.

[Rail Claimore]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Hub and spoke had everyone fly through Atlanta regardless of where they came from or where they were going. Thats fine at Mach 0.86 but traveling at 116 miles an hour or more likely 70 miles per hour, detours that come with hub and spokes take far too much time. It make sense to build HSR wherever the biggest level of inter-state(meaning between state) road or train traffic is so that people actually benefit versus their normal modes.

Air travel is mass transit and cheaper than HSR. I wonder if this isn't all just going to be an exercise is how to lose a lot of money. In Japan, the HSR network went bankrupt repeatedly and they are much more likely to use a train than we are.

That was because political pressure caused what was then public JNR to build lines to places where the premium on HSR did not beat the economics of lower-speed service. The Tokaido Line from Osaka-Nagoya-Tokyo is the money-maker for the whole system, which is now private under the various divisions of JR. That single line is a cash cow because it represents the ideal environment for HSR: a string of major urban metropolitan areas that already have substantial local transit connections in place that are all heavily used.

I'm not sure most of the lines in Japan make money outside the Tokaido Line. The Sanyo Line between Osaka and Fukuoka probably breaks even. The rest of the system doesn't do squat.

I don't think anyone expects HSR anywhere in the US, even the northeast, to break even. The key is going to be the recovery ratio at the ticket booth. The Southeast has one thing going for it: it's major cities form a line that pretty much follows I-85.

[dante2308]

The northeast Acela line is profitable (one of only two for Amtrak ) so HSR is definitely profitable in the US if you live in the train oriented Northeast. I think the Southeast is a different story unfortunately because there is no history of sustainable train usage in region. Before Acela went high speed they already had 17% of the travel market between the cities (now 40%). Here is it a number approaching zero. California HSR may be profitable too, but only if they don't try to over subsidize it.

[PedestriAnne]

Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake

I have many friends of all races, backgrounds and sexual preferences.

Difficult to believe, given that bit about "sissies" and a "bag of dicks."

[dante2308]

Again, how offensive.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake

The only dag burn thang Cybele and Dante and Fiorenza support is MORE MONEY in their pockets at the cost/risk of others having to suffer.

Cancer research doesn't directly benefit me or AIDS reserach, but I'm all for being taxed to help the human race...

We in Georgia are stuck on "What's in it for me mentality", especially when it may help the poor Negroes in downtown and southside ATL. What a bunch of sorry bastards.

Well, that's pretty hateful talk to put on a man, especially one who has never said any such thing as that. All I have ever said is there is no reason to get on people who has to drive their cars to get around, there is millions of them of all races and sizes and whatnot, just give them a fair shake.

Originally Posted by PedestriAnne

Difficult to believe, given that bit about "sissies" and a "bag of dicks."

Well I would have to agree with that too. No point in getting down on a fella on account of his lifestyle, one way or the other.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

naturally, marta was set up to be a constrained system. it was set up to fail. kindof like your parents buying you a big wheel and saying "hey there little fella/gal, there ya go, you're set for life now with that big ole new plastic big wheel, you can just tool around allover the darn city with that thing for life."

it's the poor leadership and lack of executive direction in the state of georgia since the 1980's that has allowed marta to become a remnant of what it could have been and was originally intended. look to the metro in DC to see what could have been.

Well it's not like the MARTA doesn't go to places and doesn't have a lot more room. I have never counted by there is probably something like 50 stations or thereabouts.

The thing is, a whole mess of them have never been built up at all so it's not even close to running out of room. You could add onto the ATL for 100 years along the MARTA and you'd still have plenty. Yes that north line is getting pretty busy around the Perimeter and midtown and whatnot, but go out on any of those other lines and there are a million places to build up. Why not use this big old system we've got and get it making money and so forth and when it's done then look into spending umpteen billion more dollars on more lines. Seems like that would be the smart way to go at it.