YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

One is bankrupt and one doesn't fly to Canada because of their codesharing agreements with Air Canada.

I'd assume the main reason why Air Canada doesn't fly to KIX anymore is because of the high landing fees. #2 in the World... behind Narita

Plus KIX can't act as a hub for the Star Alliance like NRT.

A bankrupt carrier would jump at the chance if the route was profitable. Air Canada can't stop ANA from flying here, ANA chooses not to.

Likewise, if Emirates siphons off India traffic, you could probably say goodbye Cathay's second daily flight to Vancouver. There's been tons of Indians connecting when I've flown it.

[Yume-sama]

Maybe, maybe not. It starts off in New York City, JFK, then connects at YVR. In fact a lot of our International flights start off somewhere else, whether it be Mexico City (JAL) or Toronto (many AC flights).

That's a large market....

Osaka International Airport is having quite the financial problems that have pushed costs to airlines through the roof....

Many flights are simply going to Chubu now. But, hubbing is important, and neither KIX or Chubu are hubs.

I'd venture to say a good 20% of people on any given flight to NRT are not staying in Japan, and NRT is an excellent hub for Air Canada's alliance within Asia.

[Yume-sama]

Life is so unfair. I am looking at booking a trip to Tokyo. This blows my mind.

YVR - Narita = $1200 round trip
SEA - YVR - Narita = $800

Both Air Canada. Ya think I could just not show up for the first leg in Seattle?

How come everything is cheaper from the USA, even though it connects in Canada

Is it because there is more than one airline in the USA?!

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Likewise, if Emirates siphons off India traffic, you could probably say goodbye Cathay's second daily flight to Vancouver. There's been tons of Indians connecting when I've flown it.

Talk about hyperbole! The percentage of India-bound traffic on Cathay is miniscule! Although connecting through Hong Kong or Tokyo is an option, it's equally efficient to fly direct to Europe and connect to India from there.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Life is so unfair. I am looking at booking a trip to Tokyo. This blows my mind.

YVR - Narita = $1200 round trip
SEA - YVR - Narita = $800

Another classic case of Air Canada doing "the right thing" for Canadians!

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Life is so unfair. I am looking at booking a trip to Tokyo. This blows my mind.

YVR - Narita = $1200 round trip
SEA - YVR - Narita = $800

Both Air Canada. Ya think I could just not show up for the first leg in Seattle?

How come everything is cheaper from the USA, even though it connects in Canada

Is it because there is more than one airline in the USA?!

If the Seattle leg is under performing, it makes sense to get a body on the flight even at the expense of not selling the second ticket, due to the crazy economics of airlines and how financial results are reported for them. The load factor matters more than individually profitable flight segments - it is virtually impossible to figure out what the economic cost of one seat on a flight is. Since flight prices increase as the load factor increases, the airline likely uses a weight of load factor vs available seat miles (or available seat segments) to figure an 'escalator' on the base fare, which increases as more seats are sold.

Also, part of Air Canada wanting to turn YVR into a hub for people from the USA might involve tweaking their flight price calculations to offer lower prices on those connections.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

A little off topic, but, why (or when) did Singapore leave YVR?

Singapore left because they were pushing for greater access to Vancouver than 3x weekly via Seoul. The new bilateral air agreement between Canada and Singapore provided more access -- but only in the form of non-stops between Canada and Singapore.

Rumor (well, a bit more meaty than rumor since it was being heavily discussed on the SQ Talk board) had it that Singapore was hoping to keep the 3x weekly via Seoul and add 7x weekly via Hong Kong (note that this is no different than how they serve North American destinations. Singapore flies to LA via Narita and SF via HK. But I guess Canada is more special than the US, even though YVR considers these West Coast airports as direct competitors...)

Anyway, that didn't happen, so those constraints combined with the economic crash made the decision easy, although Singapore was claiming 80+ percent passenger loads prior to the recession.

[twoNeurons]

KIX has been reducing landing fees to attract airlines.

And who cares if we lose Cathay's second flight? Wouldn't you rather have more destinations and more choices of which hub to fly through?

As for prices being higher connecting through YVR from SEA with AC, A close friend who works for them told me that AC charges more on that route ( they used to do the same for the Osaka route ) for two reasons:

It's a direct flight.
There's more competition in Seattle.

I guess it's more difficult for them to control the competition in a foreign airport like they can in Canada.

Yume, I don't know if they're still offering it, but Delta has direct flights ( to KIX ) starting in June. There were $600 USD flights SEA - KIX DIRECT.

I booked two flights in July.

US airlines have really had the trim the fat in the last few years. Air Canada, being protected by the government, hasn't really had to do anything. It's one reason that we should really be promoting a second airline. That way, if one is badly managed, it's not a big deal just to let it sink or swim with no major concerns.

Yes, I know we used to have Canadian Airlines. Whether they were a good airline or not isn't the issue. We need two.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

US airlines have really had the trim the fat in the last few years. Air Canada, being protected by the government, hasn't really had to do anything. It's one reason that we should really be promoting a second airline. That way, if one is badly managed, it's not a big deal just to let it sink or swim with no major concerns.

Yes, I know we used to have Canadian Airlines. Whether they were a good airline or not isn't the issue. We need two.

You won't see that unless WestJet expands ever more aggresively, starts overseas services, and, of course, starts using larger planes than the ones it has. But hey, it MIGHT happen. They're expanding aggressively now

[MalcolmTucker]

If Transat gets into more trouble I could see WestJet buying them, and integrating the two 'vacations' businesses.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

If Transat gets into more trouble I could see WestJet buying them, and integrating the two 'vacations' businesses.

That would be great !!

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

Talk about hyperbole! The percentage of India-bound traffic on Cathay is miniscule! Although connecting through Hong Kong or Tokyo is an option, it's equally efficient to fly direct to Europe and connect to India from there.

Oh sorry, I didn't realize you were a traffic analyst for Cathay Pacific. I assume you have actually been on the flight. At least once?

The government of Canada's stance has been clear and consistent, both with Emirates and Singapore. The carrier has to prove a certain level of O & D traffic.

[big T]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Life is so unfair. I am looking at booking a trip to Tokyo. This blows my mind.

YVR - Narita = $1200 round trip
SEA - YVR - Narita = $800

Both Air Canada. Ya think I could just not show up for the first leg in Seattle?

How come everything is cheaper from the USA, even though it connects in Canada

Is it because there is more than one airline in the USA?!

This makes total sense to me -- direct flights are almost always more expesive, because you pay for the convenience. You should really be comparing SEA-YVR-NRT on AC to SEA-NRT direct on Japanese and US airlines. AC is simply trying to capture part of that market by offering an attractive price.

[whatnext]

It actually boggles my mind that anyone would want to vacation in Dubai in the first place:

A British couple caught kissing in public in Dubai face up to a month in jail in the Gulf Arab emirate for indecency after an Emirati mother complained her child had seen their kiss.

The pair, a British man living in Dubai and a female friend, were arrested in November on accusations of kissing and touching each other intimately in public and consuming alcohol, their lawyer said. They were ordered jailed for a month.

The case is the third time in less than two years in which foreigners have made headlines by falling foul of decency laws in Dubai, a flashy Muslim emirate popular with sun-seeking tourists and expatriates...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/worl...-time-in-dubai-over-kiss/article1500103/

[Yume-sama]

In most cases, and most places, if you respect local law and tradition, you are fine.

Whether or not you actually agree with local law. But you should know this before you go *anywhere*, particularly the Middle East.

And under no circumstances point out the hypocrisy of it

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Life is so unfair. I am looking at booking a trip to Tokyo. This blows my mind.

YVR - Narita = $1200 round trip
SEA - YVR - Narita = $800

Both Air Canada. Ya think I could just not show up for the first leg in Seattle?

How come everything is cheaper from the USA, even though it connects in Canada

Is it because there is more than one airline in the USA?!

the $400 is for the flight from YVR to SEA

I've looked up flights to London and its cheaper to fly out of Seattle but the flights I checked on the way back stop in YVR! before going to seattle

and the flights average $300 - $400 cheaper than vancouver

[twoNeurons]

Air Canada CEO says Montreal should become international transport hub
16 March 2010 05:27

MONTREAL - Emirate Airlines' desire to expand service to Canada, high government taxes and fees all threaten Montreal's ability to become a major international hub, says the chief executive of Air Canada.

Calin Rovinescu told the city's business leaders Monday that while Trudeau Airport will never overtake Toronto's Pearson, it has the potential for more traffic.

Last year, a total of 12.8 million passengers flew through the Montreal airport, including six million with Air Canada. Since 2004, Air Canada's (TSX:AC.B) traffic through the city has grown by 25 per cent, while its capacity has increased by more than 18 per cent.

While Trudeau Airport's growth largely hinges on the state of the economy, channelling connecting traffic will be the key driver of the airport's importance as a hub, Rovinescu said.

That could be threatened if Dubai-based Emirate Airlines is able to "dump its excess capacity" into Canada and siphon passengers who make connections here.

"The growth of airports such as Montreal that rely on connecting traffic would be stunted," Rovinescu told the Canadian Club of Montreal.

"Rather than hubs, they would shrink to stubs at the end of a spoke leading only to Dubai."

The speech marked the second time in a week that Rovinescu has taken on the Middle Eastern airline for its expansion efforts in Canada.

Another impediment to Montreal's competitiveness as a hub is direct and indirect taxes, he added.

Air Canada pays about $1,000 more on average to land an Airbus A320 in Montreal, about twice what it costs the airline's U.S. peers to fly into major American airports.

The result is higher ticket prices and a disadvantage for Canadian carriers.

"The imbalance is significant and over time this will be one of the main drivers determining which cities we will help develop as meaningful hubs and where we invest our scarce resources," Rovinescu said.

One-third of Air Canada passengers who fly through the airport begin their flights elsewhere. Air Canada's membership in the Star Alliance should help improve that number. For example, the recent addition of Brussels Airlines to the alliance will increase traffic to Africa.

Rovinescu said improving Montreal's standing as a hub requires better transit connections to the downtown.

Its current service puts Canada's second-largest city a long way behind other gateways, including Vancouver with its new Skytrain service.

He said all three levels of government need to commit to improving the transit connection in order for Montreal's airport to achieve its full potential.

"If a case can be made for funding the (Formula 1 auto racing) Grand Prix and the consequential several days of economic benefits, an even stronger case can be made for funding rapid transit access and real infrastructure development for the airport," he said.

Rovinescu said Air Canada is in a marathon to improve its corporate culture, cut costs and restore profitability.

Air Canada and its 26,000 employees have made progress, but more remains to be done to allow the former Crown corporation to complete its transformation, he added.

On the Toronto Stock Exchange, Air Canada shares fell four cents, or 2.33 per cent to $1.68 in afternoon trading.

source

Where have we heard this before? Montreal has a lot of Arabs. I wonder what the opinion of the Arab community in Montreal would be if Emirates wanted into Montreal.

[twoNeurons]

Airlines square off over Vancouver service
Derek Moscato
15 March 2010 12:00

These should be the best of times for the aviation business in Vancouver. On the day after the conclusion of the Winter Olympics, our international airport successfully oversaw its highest volume of passengers ever. The Paralympics have helped to sustain some of that momentum into March.

Presumably, all of the air traffic that has flowed in and out of the city over the past month should have translated into a surge of new opportunities for Vancouver International Airport — bolstered capacity and perhaps even new routes and carriers.

But that hasn’t always been the case. The last few years have actually been marked by a loss of flights for YVR. Take Singapore Airlines, which pulled flights out of Vancouver last year. Or Cathay Pacific, which trimmed its service to Hong Kong. Before that, Vancouver lost its direct air link to Osaka.

This is not good news — whether you work for the airport, are a frequent flyer, or work in industries such as tourism or trade. A vibrant international air hub is one of the key backbones of our economy.

At least one top-tier airline, Emirates Airlines, is trying to make inroads here, but it’s getting the expected but troubling brush-off from our federal government.

According to a study commissioned by the Dubai-based carrier, Canada stands to gain $480 million in annual economic benefits by approving its plan to introduce service to Vancouver and Calgary, and bolster its flights to Toronto. The plan would also create 2,800 new jobs across the country, according to the study.

The provincial government agrees. In a statement, B.C. Premier Gordon Campbell said, “As a province and a country, we need to capitalize on services like those offered by Emirates Airline to realize our full economic potential.”

The problem is, an agitated Air Canada does not agree. Last week in Vancouver, its CEO went so far as to call Emirates’ proposal “the stuff of fairytales.”

Emirates has since fired back — stating that consumers are the ultimate losers in this standoff, and that Air Canada enjoys an unfair advantage here.

It’s time for Transport Canada to rise above this squabbling and do the right thing. Protectionism puts Canada in a negative light globally and will hurt B.C.’s economy. More airline competition is better for consumers, period.

Emirates Airlines should be allowed to start service in Vancouver immediately.

Free the skies, Ottawa.

– Derek Moscato is a writer with a focus on urban issues, transportation, architecture and economics; [email protected].

source

[big T]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

source

Where have we heard this before? Montreal has a lot of Arabs. I wonder what the opinion of the Arab community in Montreal would be if Emirates wanted into Montreal.

Montreal has tons of North Africans and Lebanese, but not so many "Arabs" as in people from the Arabic peninsula. Connecting in Dubai from eastern/central Canada would make little sense for that crowd when they can connect in Paris / take a drect flight (at least on Royal Air Maroc).

As for the article, I agree that Montreal has quite a bit of untapped potential, but it is mostly domestic in my opinion. If you look at stats you'll see that the share of intl / transborder traffic is noticeably higher in YUL than in either YYZ or YVR.

[Rusty Gull]

Best. Article. Ever.

(courtesy the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation: "Canada, Australia, Emirates & Etihad: Case study of protectionism vs liberalism. Who’s got it right?")