YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by quobobo

Don't make the rest of us pay for your xenophobia (or "patriotism" if you prefer, same thing).

If you're right and Emirates is going to provide bad service to Vancouver, then Air Canada will have no problem competing. If Emirates provides better service than Air Canada (not hard), then flights at YVR improve.

also, do you know what a zero sum game is?

Despite numerous posts pointing out the flaws in Emirates case, you obviously have failed to understand the issues involved. If you wish to wallow in a "Central Canada is screwing us" mentality go right ahead.

[quobobo]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Despite numerous posts pointing out the flaws in Emirates case, you obviously have failed to understand the issues involved.

Clearly. I’ve read through the recent pages of this thread and I'm still not entirely sure what you're arguing.

Before we go any further, could you nail down exactly why you’re against giving Emirates some slots? I’m guessing it will be one or both of these, but who knows:

1) Air Canada can’t compete with them, and in the long run we need a domestic airline so badly that it’s worth the cost to consumers.

2) The slots will be underutilized by Emirates, so we should avoid this for reasons of efficiency.

[Yume-sama]

I'd bet it has more to do with Emirates' perceived business practices

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by quobobo

1) Air Canada can’t compete with them, and in the long run we need a domestic airline so badly that it’s worth the cost to consumers.

This is true, but not for the reasons you would think. Emirates operating on the route and hubbing through Dubai presents an incredibly advantage unless the is a Air Canada codesharring airline from India flying into Dubai. Of course there won't be - why would an Indian airline feed into someone else's hub. I think Canadian's are also quick to forget that nothing is stopping any Canadian from starting another carrier that wouldn't be in the Star Alliance. We don't need to allow free access to everyone to have competition.

The western world - our airlines have formed alliances to share revenue, manage capacity and such. That Canada is only involved in one alliance right now is the fault of a lack on ambition at WestJet more than anything else. These alliances encourage hub and spoke travel on a continental scale, using very full international hub flights to support low yield domestic spoke flights.

Emirates wants to destroy that system. They want to remove every high yield passenger they can that are even only marginally better off to route them through their hub. Emirates will provide so much capacity to its hub, that Canada ends up being worse off. Sure, all our focus cities might be able to support a direct flight to dubai every day, or even two. But is that better than hubbing domestically than traveling directly to India, Syria, or Lebanon? I would say not. Hubbing domestically increases capacity and competition on routes where we would otherwise pay higher fares and enjoy less frequency. Vancouver having a Dubai flight could not only reduce available seats on flights to Europe, but domestic flights aswell. At least within the Star Alliance, the code sharing agreements basically make Canada's share of a flight even if hubbed through CDG, LHR or FRA equal to the operating airlines share. For a pure trade perspective it is better to keep profits at home than gve them all away to a foreign owner.

Add to that the strategic geopolitical implications of handing over a significant amount of high yield traffic to a state that is an absolute monarchy, reducing Canada's ability to act independently. What if Canada wanted to ship supplies to a certain democracy in the middle east during a future conflict? I am sure we couldn't count on Emirates to ship them.

[trofirhen]

OK. I'll go along with you - for a moment - and say it is better to fly directly to India, Syria, and Lebanon, wherever in that part of the world, rather than hubbing through Dubai.

Now for the question: WHERE are those airlines that are going to takes us from YVR to India, Syria, wherever? There's nothing available. Are they due to start service imminently?

It does not appear so, and there has been talk of various Indian airlines coming to Vancouver for ages. The result; nothing.

So why are you so uptight about EMIRATES landing here? What's the damage, and to whom?

[jlousa]

The flights aren't here because the demand isn't here. As much as I'd like more direct flights to where I want to go, I also don't expect any airline to fly me there on a half empty plane. We always hear airlines talking about expanding, but at the end of the day they don't because they can't make money.

I'll never forget a Warren Buffet quote from a couple of years back (probably still true today), he stated that he would never invest in the airline industry because his analysts ran the numbers and if you took the total income of the whole industry since the Wright brothers took flight until today, it would be in the red.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jlousa

The flights aren't here because the demand isn't here. As much as I'd like more direct flights to where I want to go, I also don't expect any airline to fly me there on a half empty plane. We always hear airlines talking about expanding, but at the end of the day they don't because they can't make money.

I'll never forget a Warren Buffet quote from a couple of years back (probably still true today), he stated that he would never invest in the airline industry because his analysts ran the numbers and if you took the total income of the whole industry since the Wright brothers took flight until today, it would be in the red.

Excelent point!! (putting it understatedly) .... although I did think that there would be demand from Vancouver to the Indian subcontinent anyway, as they do make up a large portion of our community.

[cornholio]

I look at the airline industry and see that is incredibly inefficient and by being inefficient it ends up costing consumers more. The reason it is inefficient is because of the incredible protectionism the industry sees by most nations, Canada being one of those nations.

Put it this way, most people don't need direct flights, they need cheap flights as they are usually on vacation and not business and the flight in most cases comprises over 50% of the costs yet takes up probably around 5% of the time or less(if going for one week). How do you get cheap flights, by being efficient and you can be efficient by routing most passengers through hubs, one of which can be Dubai. By doing this you become efficient, a airline would then have 99%-100% of their seats full at all times and have complete flexibility. Consumers would then have lower prices, and in the end probably the same travel times as the time lost to going through a hub and transferring(which would be quick) would be offset with greater flexibility in choosing the departure time with many more flights leaving each day. In the end consumers would be better if the industry was allowed to compete as this is exactly what would happen, direct flights would remain for only some destinations based on demand.

To sum it up.

Look at FedEx's business model to understand.
How goods are shipped is how people need to be shipped, that means routing to and from hubs. It can cost a fraction of what it costs right now to fly to 90% of the destinations if protectionism was droped.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Being unilaterally anti protectonist is just stupid however, and letting emirates have more slots when the o&d isn't there is certainly just throwing away the store.

You have to look at it as a government aswell, not just in a 5 year term, but a 50 year term. Do you want all of Vancouver's subcontinent bound traffic to route through Dubai then? The government looks at opening traffic to Dubai as a significant opportunity cost, when there is not a way a Canadian airline can compete for the traffic that would use the connection (due to protectionism on the part of others).

[trofirhen]

WHY can't Vancouver be a HUB instead of a spoke?? I guess the answer is evident; we're just not big enough yet. We do, however, have a strategic location: not only a bridge between East and West, but between North and South as well. Now if we can just develop the demand ......
That will take another 25 years I guess, (if there's any petroleum left to fuel the planes)

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

^ Being unilaterally anti protectonist is just stupid however, and letting emirates have more slots when the o&d isn't there is certainly just throwing away the store.

You have to look at it as a government aswell, not just in a 5 year term, but a 50 year term. Do you want all of Vancouver's subcontinent bound traffic to route through Dubai then? The government looks at opening traffic to Dubai as a significant opportunity cost, when there is not a way a Canadian airline can compete for the traffic that would use the connection (due to protectionism on the part of others).

I as a citizen and a consumer want what is best for me, I don't give two craps about Canada or any other country, I try to not be blinded by nationalism, like Einstein said, its a disease. Obviously I dont want a monopoly but that is not what we are talking about and that is something easily preventable.

To answer your question, yes, I would like to have my traffic routed through a major hub to increase efficiency, lower my price, and reduce our carbon foot print(this ones for all the environmentalist).

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

WHY can't Vancouver be a HUB instead of a spoke?? I guess the answer is evident; we're just not big enough yet. We do, however, have a strategic location: not only a bridge between East and West, but between North and South as well. Now if we can just develop the demand ......
That will take another 25 years I guess, (if there's any petroleum left to fuel the planes)

There will always be petroleum left to fuel the planes, infact it could be much much cheaper in 25 years then it is today(depending on technological advances). All thanks to peak oil, which by the way has notihng to do with us "running out of oil".

[trofirhen]

The current Minister of Transport is the Honourable John Baird, MP, an Ontario lad. (from where else did you expect)??

Regarding the title of this post, for those of you unfamiliar with French, it means "the roar of the crowd."

Putting 2 and 2 together .....

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by quobobo

Clearly. I’ve read through the recent pages of this thread and I'm still not entirely sure what you're arguing.

Before we go any further, could you nail down exactly why you’re against giving Emirates some slots? I’m guessing it will be one or both of these, but who knows:

1) Air Canada can’t compete with them, and in the long run we need a domestic airline so badly that it’s worth the cost to consumers.

2) The slots will be underutilized by Emirates, so we should avoid this for reasons of efficiency.

Air Canada's argument here is specious at best and dishonest at worst. The Vancouver Sun article stated they would grow capacity at YVR this summer and growing flights to Asia blah blah blah. Discounting the effects of the global recession, if you look back further 6-8 years, you'll see that the number of Air Canada Asian routes from Vancouver has actually remained stagnant or even decreased.

Taipei - Axed
Osaka - Axed
Nagoya - Axed
Hong Kong - Reduced from 10x weekly to 7x weekly
Seoul - Reduced during summer season from 14x weekly to 7x weekly. Beijing - Originally 7x weekly

So by this measure, either Vancouver was either (1) vastly overserved, (2) the Asian population has shrunk in the past 8 years or (3) Air Canada's inefficient cost structure prevents them from adequately serving these routes. So what actually happens now is that carriers like Cathay Pacific, a number of US airlines as well as British Airways and Lufthansa benefit since they transport passengers from Vancouver to Asia and Europe via their own hubs. Oh wait, isn't that the fear with Emirates???

To try to stoke fears that YVR will be only a spoke in Emirates' Dubai hub is just plain stupid. I don't agree with Dubai's measures to try to gain access to the Canadian market, but this is pure protectionism on Air Canada's part. Surely no-one would be naive enough to believe that daily or twice-daily flights to Dubai are going to destroy Air Canada's hub in Vancouver...?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Air Canada's argument here is specious at best and dishonest at worst. The Vancouver Sun article stated they would grow capacity at YVR this summer and growing flights to Asia blah blah blah. Discounting the effects of the global recession, if you look back further 6-8 years, you'll see that the number of Air Canada Asian routes from Vancouver has actually remained stagnant or even decreased.
..................
To try to stoke fears that YVR will be only a spoke in Emirates' Dubai hub is just plain stupid. I don't agree with Dubai's measures to try to gain access to the Canadian market, but this is pure protectionism on Air Canada's part. Surely no-one would be naive enough to believe that daily or twice-daily flights to Dubai are going to destroy Air Canada's hub in Vancouver...?

Aha! Some people on this forum do, apparently, as well as Air Canada itself!

[Rusty Gull]

Does Air Canada have any idea how much ill will there is towards them in Vancouver? They have given the gears to YVR repeatedly during the past decade. They have slashed jobs out here. They have reduced service, and killed routes.

If you look at their behaviour, their mission seems clear -- hobble YVR as much as possible -- and using government-sanctioned protectionism to do it -- to funnel traffic through money-losing Pearson.

Air Canada is behaving like a monopoly. Wait: It IS a monopoly. No wonder they are afraid of a world-class airline like Emirates setting up here.

[Yume-sama]

A little off topic, but, why (or when) did Singapore leave YVR?

[nova9]

They announced cancellations around July/August of last year. I remember because I was headed to Singapore and then they announced the cancelllations and it made my flight prohibitively expensive and annoying.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

Does Air Canada have any idea how much ill will there is towards them in Vancouver? They have given the gears to YVR repeatedly during the past decade. They have slashed jobs out here. They have reduced service, and killed routes.

If you look at their behaviour, their mission seems clear -- hobble YVR as much as possible -- and using government-sanctioned protectionism to do it -- to funnel traffic through money-losing Pearson.

Air Canada is behaving like a monopoly. Wait: It IS a monopoly. No wonder they are afraid of a world-class airline like Emirates setting up here.

Really? I wasn't aware British Airways had stopped flying from London to YVR? When did that happen? Similarly when did JAL stop flying to Tokyo? Cathay Pacific to Hong Kong? Has Westjet stopped flying to Toronto as well?

Best look up the definition of a monopoly.

As those blaming Air Canada for ceasing service to Nagoya and Osaka, you are aware that JAL or ANA is free to step in at anytime to offer service aren't you?

[Yume-sama]

Originally Posted by whatnext

JAL or ANA is free to step in at anytime to offer service aren't you?

One is bankrupt and one doesn't fly to Canada because of their codesharing agreements with Air Canada.

I'd assume the main reason why Air Canada doesn't fly to KIX anymore is because of the high landing fees. #2 in the World... behind Narita

Plus KIX can't act as a hub for the Star Alliance like NRT.