YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Johnny Aussie]

Quoting Rovinescu:

"It plans to increase total capacity to Vancouver by 3.3 per cent in July, including a 26 per cent increase to countries in the Pacific Rim. For example, in June, it will start daily flights from Vancouver to Beijing and Shanghai, up from three weekly to Beijing and four to Shanghai."

Ummmmm... doesn't he mean actually re-instating some of the stripped capacity from YVR to Asia? "Start" daily flights..!? If anybody in the room listening to this speech realised this is a bunch of crap. Air Canada is not "starting" daily flights... they are just re-instating the daily flights. In fact going back to 2005, Air Canada had 57 weekly flights from YVR to Asia... this summer they will have only 35! I hope somebody questioned his "facts!"

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

...What's best for [Air] Canada isn't always what's best for Canadians.

If there isn't enough demand, travellers from a few cities pool in a hub and go to their destination. Dubai is as good, if not better, than any other extra-country hub.

I'm sorry if you, or a family or friend get laid off, I really am... but I'm sure that some leeway can be given here. A compromise can be made.

Again, you can't seem to resist casting this as an "Air Canada is the bad guy" issue, and inferring that only Air Canada employees have an interest in retaining a strong Canadian aviation industry. Did you see Air Canada lodge objections to the recently completed Open Skies agreement with the EU? No, because they're all competing on a level playing field.

What's best for Canadians does not involved having our air system subject to disruption by a despotic Middle Eastern regime. If Emirates was such an obviously "good thing" for Canada, would the despot which controls it need to resort to threats to close Canada's forward military base in the area?

[Prometheus]

Relying on the state to immunize a company from competition is not a sign of strength, but an admission of weakness.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Unless you live in Dubai, you're still going to have to wait there to catch your flight to any middle eastern destination. What's the difference whether you wait in Frankfurt or Dubai?

As to those bemoaning the fact AC doesn't serve countries like India: there is absolutely nothing stopping Air India or Jet from serving YVR. Sad that people like to turn this into a chance to bash Air Canada, rather than standing up what's best for Canada.

There's a huge difference. Flights to Mumbai leave Dubai every hour. But there's only one or two flights out of Frankfurt to Mumbai daily - hence the 8 hour waits at the airport.

As for your "What's best for Canada" line, that is so old. We all know that what is said to be "best for Canada" often is what is in fact best for Toronto, Pearson Airport and Air Canada. And that is all. The rest of us get screwed everytime.

Exactly how is greedy protectionism -- and that is exactly what this is -- good for anybody in supposed first-world democracy???

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Relying on the state to immunize a company from competition is not a sign of strength, but an admission of weakness.

Well put. Why can't we allow the free market decide this naturally, instead of intervening with questionable protectionist policies?

[SpongeG]

also a lot of muslims like to travel and be served Halal food on the airline

my friend is muslim and has to opt for the Vegetarian meals which at best are crap and when he described what they are they are nothing more than cheese wraps sometimes or pasta with veggies

so there is a difference to some people what airline and where they wait

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Again, you can't seem to resist casting this as an "Air Canada is the bad guy" issue, and inferring that only Air Canada employees have an interest in retaining a strong Canadian aviation industry. Did you see Air Canada lodge objections to the recently completed Open Skies agreement with the EU? No, because they're all competing on a level playing field.

What's best for Canadians does not involved having our air system subject to disruption by a despotic Middle Eastern regime. If Emirates was such an obviously "good thing" for Canada, would the despot which controls it need to resort to threats to close Canada's forward military base in the area?

You are introducing a red herring that Air Canada is trying to tell to anyone who will listen. It's no different than when Harper made some noise about reducing the supply of oil to the US when the Americans were screwing us on the softwood lumber file. It's called diplomacy.

I would like to know what your stake in this matter is (federal transport bureaucrat? devoted Aeroplan member? AC employee? Pearson Airport flack?) since you seem to defend the virtually indefensible (ie, reducing consumer choice).

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

You are introducing a red herring that Air Canada is trying to tell to anyone who will listen. It's no different than when Harper made some noise about reducing the supply of oil to the US when the Americans were screwing us on the softwood lumber file. It's called diplomacy.

Harper never head his head out of Bush's ass long enough to threaten anything of the sort.

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

I would like to know what your stake in this matter is (federal transport bureaucrat? devoted Aeroplan member? AC employee? Pearson Airport flack?) since you seem to defend the virtually indefensible (ie, reducing consumer choice).

Sorry, none of the above. Try proud Canadian. Canada will never add up as a zero sum game. Too much land, too few people. If we want to be masters in our own house, not everything can be reduced to a Walmart level.

[dubsH]

Originally Posted by whatnext

not everything can be reduced to a Walmart level.

Based on most of my experiences with Air Canada, I'd say it's near Walmart level service. Of course, you'll vehemently disagree, but that's my opinion.

[Yume-sama]

I actually have an Air Canada success story for today, to keep me happy.

I called in and very nicely explained that today the flight I booked to Boston was selling much cheaper than what I paid. And I got the difference refunded~!

I take the be overly nice to phone people approach. It throws them off-guard...

Surprisingly the same thing did not work with JAL. They made me cancel and pay a cancellation fee, to save 50%

Probably because they are used to polite people. Curse you, Japan! Seriously. The first time I went to Japan I was mesmerized by the fact they still bow while conversing on the phone.

[deasine]

Well JAL is quite cash strapped at the moment... =P

[Yume-sama]

I'm sure you'll all end up subsidizing my cheaper flight at some point!

[Star Scraper]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I mentioned that because it was listed on the Wikipedia site for Seattle Airport as one of their future possible carriers..

United already offers a non-stop route from DC too Dubai. They'd move in and snatch up the Seattle route way before Emirates.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Star Scraper

United already offers a non-stop route from DC too Dubai. They'd move in and snatch up the Seattle route way before Emirates.

Is there an agreement / freedom of market accord between the UAE and the US which would allow this? (I guess there must be, but I'd like to know, out of curiosity) Thanks.

[MalcolmTucker]

In Annex I of this document you can see that there is open skies, with full fifth freedom rights for both parties http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/125743.pdf, which would be reasonable. Unfortunately that is not what UAE wants from Canada.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

In Annex I of this document you can see that there is open skies, with full fifth freedom rights for both parties http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/125743.pdf, which would be reasonable. Unfortunately that is not what UAE wants from Canada.

Interesting! If the UAE wants, and has this with the USA, why do they NOT want it with Canada?

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Air Canada ISN'T turning YVR into an Asian hub.

True that. I am unsure what YVR would lose further that we haven't lost already from AC.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Well, to make a treaty like that useful for Canada, we need a new bilateral with India. So why would UAE offer it if we wouldn't accept it. So they play hard ball, and try to wedge themselves.

Originally Emirates was boycotting Canada, saying they wanted 7 slots to provide daily service to Canada. There were only 6 slots, but no service. The government said to get more slots they had to show enough O & D demand to get more slots since the governments policy is to increase the number of direct flights to destinations Canadians want to go to. So then Eithad started 3 times weekly service and Emirates to keep up, and to stop Eithad from taking all the slots started 3 more. There is still no evidence that O& D demand exceeds the current ~5400 seats each way cap that exists. If there was, Air Canada would use the available 6 Canadian slots to provide more service.

[Rusty Gull]

The bottom line is this: Whatever is good for Air Canada is bad for YVR.

AC has so thoroughly discredited itself over the years -- from its shoddy domestic service, to the dilution of the Aeroplan program, to its shabby treatment of YVR, to its insistence of routing traffic through Pearson -- that I do not trust one word that comes out of their corporate headquarters in Montreal.

Air Canada has screwed passengers. They have screwed shareholders. They have screwed loyalty club members. And now they are screwing the British Columbia public by trying to ban Emirates' planes from landing at YVR.

[quobobo]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Sorry, none of the above. Try proud Canadian. Canada will never add up as a zero sum game. Too much land, too few people. If we want to be masters in our own house, not everything can be reduced to a Walmart level.

Don't make the rest of us pay for your xenophobia (or "patriotism" if you prefer, same thing).

If you're right and Emirates is going to provide bad service to Vancouver, then Air Canada will have no problem competing. If Emirates provides better service than Air Canada (not hard), then flights at YVR improve.

also, do you know what a zero sum game is?