Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by nname

Actually, the diagram shows the 2021 ridership.. for Canada Line, they estimated that there will be 143,200 boardings a day. Their 2011 estimate for Canada Line is 117,600... I'd say its pretty accurate actually.

I don't get how the Richmond-Brighouse tail can be narrower than the Evergreen tail in 2021... that was the main problem that stuck out to me on the diagram. Ridership to Brighouse is at least 2/3 of the overall C-Line ridership, which implies it should be at least 75k in 2011 and 100k in 2021, which would be greater than Evergreen.

Anyway, that's just a side comment to the main discussion...

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I don't get how the Richmond-Brighouse tail can be narrower than the Evergreen tail in 2021... that was the main problem that stuck out to me on the diagram. Ridership to Brighouse is at least 2/3 of the overall C-Line ridership, which implies it should be at least 75k in 2011 and 100k in 2021, which would be greater than Evergreen.

Anyway, that's just a side comment to the main discussion...

No I think it's important to the discussion. I don't think Evergreen ridership will be nearly as high as predicted. Almost like the opposite of the Canada Line.

[twoNeurons]

Regarding capacity, Remember that Canada Line trains are wider. They're probably equivalent to a 4-car MKI.

M-Line boarding numbers are also more balanced. There is more two-way traffic on the M-Line than the Expo line.

Ridership to Braid will drop dramatically once the EG-Line comes online. It serves as a bus hub now with many buses coming from Coquitlam and further East.

[DKaz]

What do the numbers in the diagram represent? PPPHD in 2021?? You'd have to run 6-car MKIs and 4-car MKIIs every 60 seconds west of Broadway! There is no way the tail end of Waterfront Station can handle that kind of frequency, they need to build a loop of some sort!

Trains would depart from Waterfront every 60 seconds as follows:

EXPO LINE TO KING GEORGE
EXPO LINE TO COMMERCIAL-BROADWAY
EXPO LINE TO KING GEORGE
EXPO LINE TO METROTOWN
EXPO LINE TO KING GEORGE
MILLENNIUM LINE TO VCC-CLARK

Evergreen Line would run every 2/4 minutes from VCC-Clark to Douglas, for a combined two minute frequency from VCC-Clark to Lougheed Town Centre.

I know interlining three different lines may seem like a possible technical nightmare but I really don't think anyone is going to pony up the money to build an expensive third platform at Columbia.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by DKaz

What do the numbers in the diagram represent? PPPHD in 2021?? You'd have to run 6-car MKIs and 4-car MKIIs every 60 seconds west of Broadway! There is no way the tail end of Waterfront Station can handle that kind of frequency, they need to build a loop of some sort!

Trains would depart from Waterfront every 60 seconds as follows:

EXPO LINE TO KING GEORGE
EXPO LINE TO COMMERCIAL-BROADWAY
EXPO LINE TO KING GEORGE
EXPO LINE TO METROTOWN
EXPO LINE TO KING GEORGE
MILLENNIUM LINE TO VCC-CLARK

Evergreen Line would run every 2/4 minutes from VCC-Clark to Douglas, for a combined two minute frequency from VCC-Clark to Lougheed Town Centre.

I know interlining three different lines may seem like a possible technical nightmare but I really don't think anyone is going to pony up the money to build an expensive third platform at Columbia.

Remember that Waterfront Station (Expo/M Line) also has an X-crossover west of the platform. That may provide shorter headways.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I don't get how the Richmond-Brighouse tail can be narrower than the Evergreen tail in 2021... that was the main problem that stuck out to me on the diagram. Ridership to Brighouse is at least 2/3 of the overall C-Line ridership, which implies it should be at least 75k in 2011 and 100k in 2021, which would be greater than Evergreen.

People from southern suburbs get on the train at Bridgeport; people from eastern suburbs get on the train at Coquitlam station.. I guess this is the difference? If you compare the width of the line north of Coquitlam station with the Richmond ones, you'll see they're about the same width.

Originally Posted by DKaz

What do the numbers in the diagram represent?

Ridership between 5 and 9AM.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Remember that Waterfront Station (Expo/M Line) also has an X-crossover west of the platform. That may provide shorter headways.

When the east tail was out of service for track repairs, the backlog for inbound trains was unacceptable, usually four trains waiting to get into the one platform. It is possible they can shorten the outbound train's dwelling time to say 10-15 seconds to reduce this pressure.

Are you sure it's 5am to 9am in that diagram? I wouldn't be surprised if we're at 30,000 passengers past Commercial-Broadway 5am-9am right now!

[nname]

Originally Posted by DKaz

When the east tail was out of service for track repairs, the backlog for inbound trains was unacceptable, usually four trains waiting to get into the one platform. It is possible they can shorten the outbound train's dwelling time to say 10-15 seconds to reduce this pressure.

Are you sure it's 5am to 9am in that diagram? I wouldn't be surprised if we're at 30,000 passengers past Commercial-Broadway 5am-9am right now!

I don't know, you can try sum up the bars on this chart

[Mac Write]

A simple solution would be to use North track for E and South for M. Would that help at all? But if they wanted to rotate trains through the east tail end though……

[officedweller]

Were they only using one platform or two platforms (both sides of the centre platform)?
I'm not really sure which would be faster, using the tail track (i.e. no criss-crossing) or the X-crossing where there would be criss-crossing but shorter distances.

[Mac Write]

South plantform unload, north platform loading. 3 trains can be in the station, South platform, North platform and tail track.

[arashi_1987]

Originally Posted by nname

I think there would more people travelling from Burquitlam to Production than from Braid to Production. So running Evergreen Line as shuttle would force even more transfers...

How would you cope with the difference in demand west and south of Lougheed station?

Answer: Densification!
Are there any plans to develop around Braid station or will it forever be an empty lot? And maybe when New West revitalizes more (e.g. that new mall with the theatre), more people will travel along that underused section between Lougheed and Columbia. It's not that underused anyway, just less used than the overcrowded sections.

The lougheed-columbia shuttle idea demonstrates efficient use of resources but will make the system function poorly. North and south side of Burnaby will be poorly linked (poor access to and from Metrotown/Surrey from Lougheed or Coquitlam).

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by nname

I don't know, you can try sum up the bars on this chart

20,400 +/- 500.

Originally Posted by officedweller

Were they only using one platform or two platforms (both sides of the centre platform)?
I'm not really sure which would be faster, using the tail track (i.e. no criss-crossing) or the X-crossing where there would be criss-crossing but shorter distances.

Normally, inbound trains unload on the south platform, go to the tail track, then switch in to platform 1 to load up on the north platform.

[nname]

Originally Posted by arashi_1987

Answer: Densification!
Are there any plans to develop around Braid station or will it forever be an empty lot? And maybe when New West revitalizes more (e.g. that new mall with the theatre), more people will travel along that underused section between Lougheed and Columbia. It's not that underused anyway, just less used than the overcrowded sections.

The lougheed-columbia shuttle idea demonstrates efficient use of resources but will make the system function poorly. North and south side of Burnaby will be poorly linked (poor access to and from Metrotown/Surrey from Lougheed or Coquitlam).

Well, but even if densification occurs, it would still be a less travelled route compared to Production-Burquitlam. Most people wouldn't mind if you run trains frequent enough on all the routes. If they can run the train every 3-5 minutes, then the maximum time you have to wait, even with 2 transfers, would still be less than 8 minutes.

And before anyone say that segment will be underused, here's the load data for SkyTrain.. Note that the busiest section on the 99 B-Line currently have a load of 23,000, so the shuttle would just get as much used as the 99 B-Line today

2006 Actual


2010 Simulated (from 2007)


2014 Simulated (from 2008)

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by arashi_1987

Answer: Densification!
Are there any plans to develop around Braid station or will it forever be an empty lot? And maybe when New West revitalizes more (e.g. that new mall with the theatre), more people will travel along that underused section between Lougheed and Columbia. It's not that underused anyway, just less used than the overcrowded sections.

The lougheed-columbia shuttle idea demonstrates efficient use of resources but will make the system function poorly. North and south side of Burnaby will be poorly linked (poor access to and from Metrotown/Surrey from Lougheed or Coquitlam).

There is the new Office Tower, Condo Tower complex. That will be going up at Sapperton. Right beside the hospital. So you can expect a small boost at that station.

[nname]

If they turn the M-Line into a shuttle, they should really build the Woodland station to boost ridership...

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by cabotp

There is the new Office Tower, Condo Tower complex. That will be going up at Sapperton. Right beside the hospital. So you can expect a small boost at that station.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=174746 Here is the thread.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by nname

If they turn the M-Line into a shuttle, they should really build the Woodland station to boost ridership...

I don't see why UBC - Broadway/Commercial - Lougheed - Douglas College can't be one line (EverMillenium?), and Waterfront - Broadway/Commercial - Metrotown - Columbia - King George - Langley can't be the Expo line.

Since Lougheed has a 2nd platform (currently unfinished), some of the Expo trains can be Waterfront - Broadway/Commercial - Metrotown - Columbia - Lougheed, with the Lougheed 2nd platform as the terminal station. Having a train sitting at the 2nd platform waiting to return to Columbia, Metrotown and Waterfront won't block the EverMillenium trains using the main platform at Lougheed.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I don't see why UBC - Broadway/Commercial - Lougheed - Douglas College can't be one line (EverMillenium?), and Waterfront - Broadway/Commercial - Metrotown - Columbia - King George - Langley can't be the Expo line.

Well it can. Back then, I wished the Canada Line had a distinction between the airport and Richmond branches just to make it more consistent with the Expo/Millennium Line configuration. Now, interestingly, I wish the SkyTrain system branded like the Canada Line.

Expo Line: Waterfront to King George via Columbia
Millennium Line: Waterfront to Douglas College (Tricities Branch) and Waterfront to Columbia (New Westminster Branch)

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Since Lougheed has a 2nd platform (currently unfinished), some of the Expo trains can be Waterfront - Broadway/Commercial - Metrotown - Columbia - Lougheed, with the Lougheed 2nd platform as the terminal station. Having a train sitting at the 2nd platform waiting to return to Columbia, Metrotown and Waterfront won't block the EverMillenium trains using the main platform at Lougheed.

I love how we always talk about what the Lougheed Stn platform configuration is. I'll explain what the plan was originally for this station.

Let "Platform 1" be the unused and unfinished platform
Let "Platform 2" be the current inbound/westbound platform to VCC-Clark
Let "Platform 3" be the current outbound/eastbound platform to Waterfront via Columbia

Because of the rather confusing cross-track configuration east of the station, trains from Columbia will cross over to the track for Platform 1. Trains from Douglas College will also go to Platform 1.

There is a little more flexibility with Platform 2 and 3, as both can be easily used for trains to Columbia and trains to Douglas College.

Officedweller has a few diagrams which makes it a lot more simpler. I'm too lazy to dig it out again.

I think it's worth investment to reconfigure Lougheed Stn though. Currently, the station uses a centre dual platform with an island platform on the side:

Platform 1 (not used)
--------------------------Track
--------------------------Track
Platform 2/3
--------------------------Track

IfI think they should rebuild Platform 1 and the unused track so that the station uses two centre dual platforms instead with the following train configuration:

--------------------------Track: Inbound/Westbound to VCC-Clark
Platform 1/2
--------------------------Track: Outbound/Eastbound to Columbia
Platform 2/3
--------------------------Track: Outbound/Eastbound to Douglas College

This layout makes a lot more sense for the shuttle configuration between Lougheed and Columbia. Transfers between trains really occur on the platform level. Let's say you are on a train going at Columbia. Trains from Columbia enter the centre track. If you want to go to VCC-Clark, simply transfer across the platform. Similarly, if you want Douglas College, you also transfer across the platform. This layout works for both directions!

The shuttle train can be timed to work with trains from both or either directions, so that when you make a transfer, the train will already be there waiting for you.

[CPE]

Translink wont do that, it makes too much sense.