Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[nname]

Well, something must have happened during December that cause the bus and trolley bus ridership to dip while the ridership on SkyTrain and SeaBus increases. Maybe because there's no snow this year and people were not "foced" to leave their car at home?

Ignore the December number and look at the Novemeber one instead. The ridership of 98, 424, and part of the 15, I would say it amount to about 750k riders a month. But the bus ridership for Novemeber actually increases by 175k compared to last year. Maybe the #3 and #17 were loosing riders due to Canada Line, or maybe the riders who used to take N/S trolley route from downtown now choose to take the Canada Line and then transfer to a E/W diesel bus route to avoid the traffic in downtown and Broadway/4th?

[SpongeG]

its the 1000's of people laid off in the fall

combine ebay and some of the other big layoffs thats a large number of transit users

[jlousa]

Pretty sure those numbers are just the skytrain jumping due to the Canada Line in the last part of the year, followed by the drop of passengers from buses along that route. Seems pretty straightforward.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by nname

Maybe the #3 and #17 were loosing riders due to Canada Line, or maybe the riders who used to take N/S trolley route from downtown now choose to take the Canada Line and then transfer to a E/W diesel bus route to avoid the traffic in downtown and Broadway/4th?

Exactly the main reason. I am one of these riders sometimes, and I overheard conversation on bus (#49) I know there're other people doing the same thing . #3 Main lost a sizable ridership in particular.

[lightrail]

What is still impressive is that the trolley buses are carrying 38% of all bus passengers in the region. Assuming the trolley number is a subset of the bus number, and it looks about right, that percentage has dropped from 15 years ago due to the introduction of the b-lines mainly.

[vangirl3]

Newbie here who is not strong in math... I have a question regarding the Q4 stats:

Does this mean that transit (disregard handy dart and WCE) in Q4 was carrying net approx 90k more people (37% more skytrain passengers; 10% more seabus less 13% trolly & 2% regular bus)? I'm only looking at the number of passengers for Q4 -- not the more detailed breakdown in the attachment.

Is that possible or have I truly failed at math

[CLC]

Canada line ranked #4 in the "America" Decade's Ten Most Expensive Transit Projects
http://www.infrastructurist.com/gallerie...it-projects-4-vancouver-canada-line.html

[officedweller]

Another article - same source?
This link has "sortable" info in tables (i.e. sortable by US$ per mile for each project)

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/03/11/the-decades-top-hits-2/

[GeeCee]

B.C.'s U-Pass student transit program to go provincewide, gov't promises

Transportation Minister Shirley Bond confirmed Friday the provincial government will make good on its 2009 election promise to have a provincewide U-Pass by September.

The U-Pass or University Pass is a low-cost subsidized transit pass that is currently available at only four institutions in the Lower Mainland — the University of B.C., Simon Fraser University, Capilano University and Langara College.

There are also U-Pass programs at the University of Victoria and Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops.

In the Lower Mainland, students get unlimited transit use for a mandatory monthly fee that ranges from $23.75 to $38 depending on the institution.

That compares to regular monthly passes that currently cost $73 (one zone), $99 (two zone) and $136 (three zones) and which are all due to increase in cost soon.

“We are going to honour the commitment we made,” said Bond. “It’s an important initiative for students right across the province.

“We are finishing the work that’s necessary,” she said. “We will honour the commitment to have that announcement probably in the not-too-distant future.

“It is complicated, as you can imagine. There are a number of agreements already in place at institutions.”

There are also the different transit providers around the province, including TransLink and B.C. Transit.

“Our staff has done a great deal of work,” said Bond. “We've had a lot of discussions with students and certainly students have been very active and very unique in how they’ve shared their views.”

One of those unique presentations was a giant chocolate U-Pass students from Kwantlen Polytechnic University presented to Bond in her office earlier this week.

Kwantlen students, of which there are more than 17,000 at campuses in Surrey, Richmond and Langley, said they were attempting to "sweeten the deal" on the U-Pass.

Benjamin Newsom, the U-Pass program co-ordinator for the Kwantlen Student Association, was surprised to hear U-Pass is finally coming to his school.

“Really?” said Newsom late Friday afternoon.

“Until I see the details of the plan I’m not sure what kind of impact it’s going to have on the province,” said Newsom. “It’s pretty surprising seeing as how they haven’t said anything, any details, to pretty much anyone about how they’re going to implement these plans.”

But the bottom line is that giving students a break is welcome news.

“I’m happy to hear they are planning an announcement on something to reduce the cost of transportation for students in B.C.,” said Newsom.

The OnePassNow Coalition, which has also been fighting for more access to U-Pass, represents 65,000 students at Vancouver Community College, Emily Carr University, Douglas College and UBC.

The coalition filed a complaint with B.C. Ombudsperson Kim Carter last April about the situation and spokeswoman Tiffany Kalanj checked in with the ombudsperson’s office Friday.

She suspected something was up with the U-Pass.

“The ombudsman has suggested that we wouldn’t want to continue [with the complaint] because the government has committed repeatedly to implement the plan by September,” said Kalanj.

Exact details of the plan should be interesting because TransLink currently doesn’t have the funding to provide the extra service required if all students suddenly had unlimited access.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Pass+stu...provincewide+promises/2680258/story.html

TransLink's days are numbered..

[invisibleairwaves]

*sigh*

I'm a college student at an institution without U-Passes who takes transit every day...and I'm against this. I want better service, and I'm willing to pay a little more so Translink can afford to make upgrades. It's still far cheaper than driving.

Of course, if the schools are going to make up the difference, that's fine by me.

[Locked In]

Better transit, better province: mayors' council

If province pays up, province benefits, mayors say, but Transportation Minister thinks taxpayers have paid enough

FRANCES BULA

VANCOUVER — Special to The Globe and Mail Published on Saturday, Mar. 13, 2010 12:00AM EST Last updated on Saturday, Mar. 13, 2010 3:19AM EST


Good transit in the Lower Mainland helps the economy of the whole province.

That's the argument Vancouver-area mayors are going to make next week in an effort to get more help from the province to pay for the region's latest mega-transit project, the Evergreen Line.

"If we have a robust, integrated solution for the Lower Mainland, the economic growth that will allow will benefit the entire province," said TransLink mayors' council chief and Langley City Mayor Peter Fassbender, as he prepared to head into a meeting Monday with B.C. Transportation Minister Shirley Bond.

"Everybody focuses on rapid transit as though it's only for the Metro Vancouver user and we've got to shift that paradigm."

But the Transportation Minister is ready and waiting with her counterargument.

"We certainly recognize that investments in the Lower Mainland make a difference. But the taxpayers of B.C. have already invested $400-million in the Evergreen Line. We have to look at what's fair and equitable in who pays for the rest," Ms. Bond said.

The minister noted many northern communities are waiting for highway and bridge projects, while the Lower Mainland has benefited from investments in the Canada Line, the Sea to Sky Highway, and the current Gateway construction project.

Ms. Bond also hinted yesterday that the province would introduce legislation in the current session to resolve the issue of how to pay for the $1.2-billion Evergreen Line.

"We're looking at both governance and other things to close the gap. If legislation is required to deal with any of this, it would have to be tabled in this session."

The province has committed $400-million and the federal government has committed $420-million for the line. But in TransLink's controversial 10-year budget plan last year, mayors declined to raise property taxes or introduce a vehicle fee to come up with the remaining $400-million.

Their concern at the time was the difficult political sell in asking taxpayers throughout the region to accept higher fees for a line that would benefit only a part of the region.

Instead, they proposed a much richer package of transit improvements for the whole region, which couldn't be paid for without the province approving new kinds of fees and taxes on top of the existing ones. When the province wouldn't allow that, the mayors passed a plan with no funding for the Evergreen Line.

Now, Ms. Bond is saying that Metro Vancouver mayors should apply the same equity arguments to their region that they're asking from B.C.

"If you're going to invest in the Evergreen Line, it benefits the whole Lower Mainland."

Ms. Bond refused to confirm whether the province is looking at imposing a property tax or a vehicle levy unilaterally.

The struggles over funding bigger transit projects in the Lower Mainland has been a political burr ever since TransLink, an agency that manages all roads and transit for the region, was created in 1999.

When the Expo and Millennium lines were built (opened respectively in 1985 and 2002), the provincial government paid all the construction costs. It wasn't until the Canada Line was being planned that the TransLink - and regional taxpayers - were asked to contribute to the construction of a major line.

TransLink contributed $334-million and is also required to make regular repayments to the private partner that built and is operating the line for the first 10 years.

Lower Mainland mayors have been reluctant to keep raising property taxes to pay for the region's share of transit projects, saying that it hurts economic growth in the region and targets the wrong people.

"Right now, the mayors' position is that the property tax is a big challenge for us," Mr. Fassbender said. "Road tolling and some of the other potential options are better because they actually become incentives for getting people out of their cars."

But apparent differences aside, Mr. Fassbender and Ms. Bond insist they are having ongoing, constructive conversations on how to resolve the issue.

Source: Globe and Mail

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

*sigh*

I'm a college student at an institution without U-Passes who takes transit every day...and I'm against this. I want better service, and I'm willing to pay a little more so Translink can afford to make upgrades. It's still far cheaper than driving.

Of course, if the schools are going to make up the difference, that's fine by me.

They just need to raise the price of the U-pass and make it mandatory for every student. Maybe make it the same price as a 1 zone pass.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Locked In

Source: Globe and Mail

I wonder when they voted for the $130 Mil plan last year during the fall.

If they had the same vote right after the Olympics. Would there have been a bigger swing towards the $450 Mil option.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by cabotp

They just need to raise the price of the U-pass and make it mandatory for every student. Maybe make it the same price as a 1 zone pass.

TOO HIGH A PRICE! For starters, students already only pay one-zone when they buy a farecard.
Secondly, the whole point of everyone paying is to create stable predictable income while providing a general benefit to the student body.

This concept sells well with most student bodies because many are already carless, are used to paying fees, and more or less are less set in their ways and open to change ( due to inexperience and youth, mostly ).

To do this, you need to offer the pass at a considerable discount.

Look at it like health-care. You pay the $100 / month and if you're a heavy "hospital-user" you get more benefit out of the system. Healthy people feel alright paying into the system because it's there when they need it and they know others benefit. I know, health care's real costs are more than that per user.

U-PASS also creates transit users. The benefits to Translink is tangeable now... but wait 10 years... hopefully we'll see massive increases.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cabotp

They just need to raise the price of the U-pass and make it mandatory for every student. Maybe make it the same price as a 1 zone pass.

The whole idea is that the price is mandatory, built in to tuition right?

I'm in favour of the idea, although as many have said here I do think the price needs adjusting. It needs to be permanently set vs. a farecard (say 66% or 75% of a 1 zone).

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by cabotp

They just need to raise the price of the U-pass and make it mandatory for every student. Maybe make it the same price as a 1 zone pass.

The U-pass is already mandatory for every student.

(with some necessary minor exemptions, such as if you don't live within Metro Vancouver)

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The whole idea is that the price is mandatory, built in to tuition right?

I'm in favour of the idea, although as many have said here I do think the price needs adjusting. It needs to be permanently set vs. a farecard (say 66% or 75% of a 1 zone).

That would be better that way as the price of the 1 zone pass goes up so does the price of the U-Pass

Originally Posted by huenthar

The U-pass is already mandatory for every student.

(with some necessary minor exemptions, such as if you don't live within Metro Vancouver)

By mandatory I was talking about all post secondary students not just the students of the schools that are part of the U-Pass program.

[cabotp]

Thoughts on this debate I'm having with Zwei

# Cabotp Says:
March 13, 2010 at 4:24 am

If a transit service is only successful when there are no transfers. Then I would suggest that you jump in a car and drive. Because that is about the only way that will ever happen.

There is no way you can design a transit system where ever single person on that system enjoys a one seat ride.

Sure some people will enjoy that idea based on where they live and where they work. But the vast majority of people will never get that luxury and so at some point in their journey will have to transfer.

Zweisystem replies: Studies have shown, including BC Transit, that you can lose upwards of 70% of potential ridership per transfer. The experience of the Karlsruhe TramTrain, proved that in spades!

A larger LRT network is better at providing ’seamless’ trips than a metro. In Europe, where there maybe 4 or 5 actual lines, may offer upwards of 20 tram routes. Remember, 80% of SkyTrain’s customers first take a bus to the metro, which suggest to me a whole lot of people do jump into their cars instead of taking transit.

# Cabotp Says:
March 13, 2010 at 10:52 pm

The thing is there is no way you can design a system where everyone gets a one seat ride. Everyone doesn’t live in the same area and all work in the same area. We all live and work and go to school and shop in different areas. So we all have our own travel patterns.

Even if there was a large LRT network in the metro Vancouver region. At some point most people would have to transfer. That would include someone transferring from one LRT line to another.

The biggest reason why you loose people at a transfer is mostly due to the fact of missing the connection and having to wait. Which is why transfers are not good SoF. In Vancouver people tolerate them more because of the higher frequency.

What the grid system does is allows you to make it to your destination with at most 1 transfer.

Zweisystem replies: The answer is actually no, people don’t like transfers because they are inconvenient. People do not like changing during a transit journey. The lesson from Europe is that transit is a product, not unlike any other product and if the customer likes the product, they will use it. Evidence from the METRO region is that the customers do not like the product.

Notice how he never responds to my statement that there is no way "everyone" can ride without transferring at some point. Not matter what kind of system is built.

[Whalleyboy]

i dont know what hes talking about inconvenience
most people i know just dont like waiting for buses to transfer due to its in frequencies

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

i dont know what hes talking about inconvenience
most people i know just dont like waiting for buses to transfer due to its in frequencies

Exactly. Which is why doing a transfer SoF is a huge problem due to the low frequencies in some cases. And to me 15 min is not a high frequency.

But in Vancouver transfers are not as bad. As most routes have very frequent service. So even if you miss one bus. The next one isn't that far behind.