Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[hammersklavier]

Simple: 611 happens to be home to the Broad Street Subway, which is underused. By making it more visible (flex-time park-and-ride facilities at Pattison? Improved signage for Fern Rock?), patronage of the line can increase.

Broad Street is, in many ways, perfectly positioned for a heavy rail line, which is the main reason why it got built. Its congestion is due to its critical arterial status, especially from the northern suburbs, and the fact that it nigh-impossible to make it much better than it actually is.

Speaking of ROWs, though, I personally think that a heavy rail line can be routed from Main Street in Manayunk (the terminus near the foot of the Pencoyd Viaduct, of course) to Ridge Avenue, then down 33rd, run alongside the CSX tracks from the bottom of 33rd (approximately at Girard) to Pennsylvania, under Pennsylvania and out into the City Branch Cut (the former site of Noble Street) and along that cut into a new cutoff tunnel connecting it with the Ridge Avenue Spur, down the old cutoff from that Spur to the Chinatown line, and south along 8th towards Washington and (preferably) eventually Oregon. Such a line would enormously improve transit options for a vast swath of the city, including much of eastern South Philly, and in conjunct with a network of light and heavy rail, including heavier lines linking the more far-flung neighborhoods of the city together and the lighter lines connecting into the heavier network and linking together the outer parts of the central city.

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

How come PATCO was never extended to 30th Street Station?

Ideas have floated around about extending PATCO to 30th street or even further. Who knows if it will ever happen. What I'd like to see is the Broad street line extended south into Gloucester County. It would definitely cut down the commute for many South Jersey residents who work or visit the city.

[volguus zildrohar]

What is now PATCO in Center City is the only built section of an originally envisioned subway loop around downtown. This is why it was never built further west to begin with. It hasn't been extended since for a variety of reasons - the need hasn't expressed itself until recently and the money/political atmosphere hasn't always been there at the same time.

hammer, it would be a great day if CSX ever gives up the 25th Street viaduct although I'm sure it would need massive (Have you ever seen that suck close up? It shows its age.

[hammersklavier]

I'll bet it's showing its age.

If built right, CSX doesn't even have to give the viaduct up completely for transit to operate along it (unlike, say, the Arsenal Bridge).

That's because the Viaduct is quite wide enough for three tracks (at the very least), there is a precedent for operating freight and heavy rail together in the same ROW--it's called Chicago--although not on the same tracks (which, of course, doesn't need to happen with 25th Street either). And platforms can hang off the viaduct, so they don't have to impinge on the running ways, either.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Whats the Status of restoring the old Tram routes?

[pwp]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Whats the Status of restoring the old Tram routes?

Are there plans to do so?

[hammersklavier]

Ain't gonna happen. The 23 is too long and too slow to be restored as a single route (although there are two parts of the total length whose restoration should certainly be looked into) and the 56...I don't know if SEPTA will ever restore it, and after the way they managed to bungle up giving the 15 a really quality restoration, I don't know if I would want them doing it anyway.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Ain't gonna happen. The 23 is too long and too slow to be restored as a single route (although there are two parts of the total length whose restoration should certainly be looked into) and the 56...I don't know if SEPTA will ever restore it, and after the way they managed to bungle up giving the 15 a really quality restoration, I don't know if I would want them doing it anyway.

Thats not what my Philly friend said , he said they would replace those lines sometime in the next 5 years.

[Muji]

SEPTA's new Silverliner V pilot cars just arrived a few days ago in Philadelphia. Some nice photos taken from the Railroad.net SEPTA/PATCO Forum - credit to users RRDMECH and ex Budd man.





Pretty ho-hum exteriors but those large windows look fantastic inside the cars.

[hammersklavier]

...is slightly faster than the 36 along Elmwood Avenue. But it is still hampered from getting up to full speed due to the frequency of carstops. Eliminating two or three of these carstops (why, honestly, are there two carstops servicing Penrose Plaza?) would greatly improve speed along the line. (This over-frequency of stops is SEPTA's scourge throughout its system.)

Still, if an entire line were as running-way separated with the same average distance between carstops as the 36 along Island Avenue, these incremental speed increases would build up--if the 15 were grade-separated where it's most amenable: along the widest sections of Girard and under the elevated portion of 95, say--to where service can be 7 to 10 minutes faster. Said speedier service makes light rail an even more enticing transit option.

It is also in my opinion that an average of three to five blocks between stops is best. Placing new carstops between extant ones with paths two both of the former carstops would be an easy way to consolidate carstop service. For example: a well-engineered 15 should be running-way separated (in the same manner as the 36 along Island) from South College and Poplar to Girard and Richmond: rerouting through traffic to Broad down Poplar instead of Girard (making it the arterial instead) and thereby using the lanes gained to separate the 15's running way from the traffic ways, as well as providing stops at St. Joseph's Prep-Ridge, St. Joseph's Hospital-Broad Street West, and 11th/12th-Broad Street East would provide similar light-rail-style running from 9th Street to Girard College, for one thing.

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Thats not what my Philly friend said , he said they would replace those lines sometime in the next 5 years.

SEPTA has had restoration of the 23 and 56 in every 5 year capital plan since they shut them down and has moved them back every time they're created a new five year plan. They'll find Jimmy Hoffa's body before either of those trolleys returns to service - particularly the 56 because it doesn't run through any trendy neighborhoods.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

SEPTA has had restoration of the 23 and 56 in every 5 year capital plan since they shut them down and has moved them back every time they're created a new five year plan. They'll find Jimmy Hoffa's body before either of those trolleys returns to service - particularly the 56 because it doesn't run through any trendy neighborhoods.

I like the full restoration of the 23, but the 56 should be converted from a trolley to a trackless tolley, just like the 75 on Wyoming Ave. Reasons being is that Erie Ave from Broad St all the way to Kensington Ave can be a death trap due to the underutilized middle land that used to be for the trolleys that served that throughfare.

I believe that the city should turn Erie Ave into a two lane throughfare (one lane for each land w/ a middle lane for left turns), w/ bike lanes on each sides. I don't know what nutter plans on doing to fix these streets, but this should be one of them. Every time I see somebody pass another person through the middle lane, only to get back into the driving lane, it seems like a potential fender bender waiting to happen.

Also, get rid of the of the ridges and elevated middle lane on Erie Ave while you're at it, they're unneceesary.

Another route SEPTA needs to get rid of is the 89, since it's practically useless (except to get to Juniata Park), and replace it w/ a bus route from Bridge and Pratt to Wissahickon via Hunting Park Ave. HP Ave is the only arterial throughfare that doesn't really have a dedicated bus route east of Broad St, and you have shopping districts in Hunting Park and Juniata Park that needs local bus service.

And adding another route on Tioga St and Glenwood Ave from 33rd and Dauphin to Port Richmond would help, too.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I like the full restoration of the 23, but the 56 should be converted from a trolley to a trackless tolley, just like the 75 on Wyoming Ave. Reasons being is that Erie Ave from Broad St all the way to Kensington Ave can be a death trap due to the underutilized middle land that used to be for the trolleys that served that throughfare.

I believe that the city should turn Erie Ave into a two lane throughfare (one lane for each land w/ a middle lane for left turns), w/ bike lanes on each sides. I don't know what nutter plans on doing to fix these streets, but this should be one of them. Every time I see somebody pass another person through the middle lane, only to get back into the driving lane, it seems like a potential fender bender waiting to happen.

Also, get rid of the of the ridges and elevated middle lane on Erie Ave while you're at it, they're unneceesary.

That sounds like a good argument for turning the middle lanes (where the trolley used-to-was) into separated ROW, like the one found on Island Avenue. Or: turn the line into a true LRV. Erie Avenue is, after all, quite wide enough for it (it's one of the widest streets in the city!)

Another route SEPTA needs to get rid of is the 89, since it's practically useless (except to get to Juniata Park), and replace it w/ a bus route from Bridge and Pratt to Wissahickon via Hunting Park Ave. HP Ave is the only arterial throughfare that doesn't really have a dedicated bus route east of Broad St, and you have shopping districts in Hunting Park and Juniata Park that needs local bus service.

And adding another route on Tioga St and Glenwood Ave from 33rd and Dauphin to Port Richmond would help, too.

I'm of the opinion that most of the bus routes in the city ought to be converted to trackless trolleys and that hence turning the 89 into a bus route would be more expensive than it's really worth.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Yes--I'm referring to the revised (greatly simplified) plan to run push-pull diesel service from Norristown TC to Wyomissing. Unlike the ill-fated SVM, this one has no bells and whistles attached--the minimal construction, equipment procurement, and line restoration costs necessary to introduce a viable service.



This map looks somewhat slapdash in regards to the 15's incorporation. It neglects to inform us that there is a transfer between the 10 and 15 available at Lancaster and Girard, and one between the 15 and Market-Frankford Line at Front and Girard. A minor, easily correctable oversight on SEPTA's part--and doubtless one that will remain until 2030.

I think they should seperate the 15 from the rest of the Subway Surface system only because the 15 is the only trolley line to not go undergrond. SEPTA should also consider reviving the 23 from South Philly to Chestnut Hill, w/ a spur line from G'town and Rising Sun Ave and Broad and Olney via Old York Rd (23N???).

I think some minor adjustments can be made to the Subway Surface (wonder why SEPTA doesn't call them that anymore) system:

-First, take out all the number designations and replace them w/ letters, similar to Boston and SF trolley lines. Reason being that this will make it much easier to tell the subway surface trolleys from the buses and streetcars. I know people will say that the numbers are a part of Phila's transportation history, but tell that to NYC, which is infamous for combining bus lines and giving them new numbers. SEPTA should give it's subway surface lines letters:

A - Lancaster Ave to 63rd and Malvern

B - Baltimore Ave

C - Chester Ave

D - Woodland Ave

E - Elmwood Ave

L - Lansdowne and Lancaster Aves (limited stops for transfers only) to Morris Park and Haverford Ave.

P -Parkside Ave, Monument Rd and Lancaster Ave to Righter's Ferry in Bala Cynwyd.

W - Whitby Ave to Yeadon.

-Second, some minor changes to certain underground stations:

-37th St to Spruce St

-36th St to Sansom St

Reasons for these changes is to let passengers know which streets they're on rather than relying on the vague number system.

[hammersklavier]

That's not a half-bad idea, but you're going to have to re-assign lettered bus routes (like the C) which overlap numbers.

I'd also like the see the 10 and 36 extended to meet the respective Regional Rail stations just beyond (Overbrook for the 10 and Eastwick for the 36). The 10-to-Overbrook thing, especially, has been floated around for years, and for good reason; I also happen to think that Eastwick would make a good hub stop for transfers and such; there's a bunch of bus routes already servicing it.

[volguus zildrohar]

I can get with the idea of renaming the SST with letters - and dropping the lettered buses and giving them numbers. SEPTA does have in its Five Year Plan (IIRC) extending the 36 to Eastwick station.

[hammersklavier]

It might also be a good idea to activate the occasionally-suggest University City trolley loop (U? L? UL?) because it's cheap. Like really cheap. The 40th and 49th Street cutoffs are already there and already electrified, so the only excuse not to do it would be a lack of equipment...but AFAIK since they originally ordered the Subway-Surface equipment back when the 23 and the 56 were still active lines they should have quite a few Kawas that are just sitting around, unused, and really--how many Kawas do you need to run that short loop? (Not many, I should think.)

[volguus zildrohar]

Indeed, the UCity/Spruce Hill loop idea has been bounced around for years (by various organizations but, AFAIK, never by SEPTA). I think the main impediment from SEPTA's perspective is the presence of LUCY and various other private shuttle services offered by the institutions in the area. SEPTA is always ready to argue "ridership" whenever changes/additions to service are made. Though the idea for the loop is sound, I think, ridership actually may be an issue. Would enough people use it to justify the outlay of equipment (and thereby the increased cost in equipment wear, manhours, etc). I'm playing devil's advocate here, looking at things the way I know SEPTA would so that I can find holes in the argument that I know they would make.

[pwp]

This is truely unacceptable. SEPTA is already behind the times. This will push the system even further down the modernization ladder. Horrible.

March 12, 2010

By Anthony Campisi
For PlanPhilly

SEPTA finally laid bare the devastating effects failing to toll Interstate 80 would have on the system.



At a press conference Friday, the authority announced it plans to defer or cancel 20 projects worth more than $200 million. SEPTA officials also released details about operating and capital budget proposals for fiscal year 2011...

http://planphilly.com/septa-seeking-fare-hike

[Muji]

To be fair, the issue of Act 44 funding is quite beyond SEPTA's control at this point, and now depends on whether or not the feds will allow the state to toll I-80. It goes without saying that failure would be horrendous for transit funding everywhere throughout the state. I'm personally hopeful that it'll be approved...given Transportation Secretary Ray Lahood's reliable support for transit projects and repeated lobbying on Rendell's part.