ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well it seems like there's some mighty thin-skinned people when it comes to certain subjects and whatnot. Personally I'm as big a fan of the MARTA as you will find and have ridden on it thousands of times and have family who worked for it, but nothing's perfect and they would say so themselves. How can you make something better if you can't mention what the problems are.

There is a BIG difference between you saying MARTA isn't perfect and others who are overly critical of MARTA. Of course it isn't perfect...I think everyone knows that. But it's far from being the worst transit system in the U.S. and far from being ineffective. Overall we are pretty lucky to have what we have - and several cities (larger and smaller) would give anything to have it.

It's fine to discuss problems with MARTA, but when it gets down to highly opinionated/untrue statements - THAT'S where it becomes a problem. Surely you see the difference in the two?

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

It's fine to discuss problems with MARTA, but when it gets down to highly opinionated/untrue statements - THAT'S where it becomes a problem. Surely you see the difference in the two?

omg, don't bring shirley into the mix, we already have a cybele with at least one alter ego.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well it seems like there's some mighty thin-skinned people when it comes to certain subjects and whatnot. Personally I'm as big a fan of the MARTA as you will find and have ridden on it thousands of times and have family who worked for it, but nothing's perfect and they would say so themselves. How can you make something better if you can't mention what the problems are.

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

There is a BIG difference between you saying MARTA isn't perfect and others who are overly critical of MARTA. Of course it isn't perfect...I think everyone knows that. But it's far from being the worst transit system in the U.S. and far from being ineffective. Overall we are pretty lucky to have what we have - and several cities (larger and smaller) would give anything to have it.

It's fine to discuss problems with MARTA, but when it gets down to highly opinionated/untrue statements - THAT'S where it becomes a problem. Surely you see the difference in the two?

Thanks TarHeelJ. I couldn't agree more with your comments.

I don't post much, but when I do it's mostly done to add balance or debunk those highly opinionated/untrue statements that you speak of. If I'm thin-skinned of anything, it's of those who perpetuate falsehoods, pretense and hypocrisy.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

There is a BIG difference between you saying MARTA isn't perfect and others who are overly critical of MARTA. Of course it isn't perfect...I think everyone knows that. But it's far from being the worst transit system in the U.S. and far from being ineffective. Overall we are pretty lucky to have what we have - and several cities (larger and smaller) would give anything to have it.

It's fine to discuss problems with MARTA, but when it gets down to highly opinionated/untrue statements - THAT'S where it becomes a problem. Surely you see the difference in the two?

Well I guess I haven't seen anybody being hypo critical of the MARTA or claiming it was the worst transit thing in the country. That would be plumb stupid in my opinion, it's not perfect but it's better than most of them. Who are you after, that young fella who got beat up at the station?

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well I guess I haven't seen anybody being hypo critical of the MARTA or claiming it was the worst transit thing in the country. That would be plumb stupid in my opinion, it's not perfect but it's better than most of them. Who are you after, that young fella who got beat up at the station?

Hmmmm...I have to question this. You've skipped over many posts if you haven't seen unfounded criticism of MARTA in this forum. I assure you it's here.

MARTA is probably the most maligned transit system in the U.S. It gets a load of fantasy criticism.

[cybele]

Well now here's a fella who wrote a new book along the lines of what I've been saying might happen.

A Nation 400 Million Strong

What will this nonhegemonic transcendent superpower [the U.S. in 2050] look like? The Internet’s democratization of information will mean more people will work at home. The heartland will be revived as places with “skill surpluses” like Fargo, N.D., and Boise, Idaho, prosper through technology. The nation’s suburbs will become more like preindustrial villages with vibrant town centers and less like bedroom communities catering to commuters. As a result the core of many central cities will shrivel and become anachronisms as the sprawling, multipolar, car-dependent cities of the South and Southwest (which can lure younger families with lower property prices) become cutting-edge cultural incubators.

Some older urban areas, like New York, may survive as “luxury cities,” but Mr. Kotkin perceptively warns that municipal officials who believe they can position their cities only as playgrounds for the rich are doomed to a demographic dead end. He invokes Jane Jacobs: “Cities don’t lure the middle class. They create it.”

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well now here's a fella who wrote a new book along the lines of what I've been saying might happen.

no surprise here....you're a fan of kotkin.

generally anti-transit, pro carbon, pro auto, pro roads and highways.

1970's mentality.

perfect fit.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

no surprise here....you're a fan of kotkin.

generally anti-transit, pro carbon, pro auto, pro roads and highways.

1970's mentality.

perfect fit.

Well I don't know the man from Adam's off ox, all I'm saying is it's a possibility that ought to be looked at. If somebody had claimed 40 years ago that the city of Atlanta would stay the same size but the suburbs would add 5 million people folks would have said he was crazy as a bessie bug.

Remember everybody thought all these interstates would be funneling everybody back into downtown, so we spent umpteen billion dollars on it but then they went the other way. It's what they call the law of unknown consequences or some such thing, nobody can tell what people are going to do.

[cybele]

Well and before everybody starts talking like the 1970s was some terrible stone age let's not forget that's when the MARTA came along and the Omni and the Peachtree Plaza and Peachtree Center and Colony Square and Tower Place and whatnot, much of which is what made Atlanta what it is. Not to mention the Fox and so forth. I shudder to think what this town would have been like without all that 1970s thinking.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well I don't know the man from Adam's off ox, all I'm saying is it's a possibility that ought to be looked at. If somebody had claimed 40 years ago that the city of Atlanta would stay the same size but the suburbs would add 5 million people folks would have said he was crazy as a bessie bug.

i have know idea what a bessie bug is, but the atlanta regional commission and it's smaller predecessor have been making projections like that (i.e. suburban growth) for quite a long time, at least since the 1970's

Originally Posted by cybele

Remember everybody thought all these interstates would be funneling everybody back into downtown, so we spent umpteen billion dollars on it but then they went the other way. It's what they call the law of unknown consequences or some such thing, nobody can tell what people are going to do.

huh? what? i don't think anybody thought the interstates would prop up the central cities....the interstate highway program was not based on urban renewal. the interstates were conceived as a means to moving masses of people and commerce between states and cities via highway and connecting nodes in metropolitan areas.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well and before everybody starts talking like the 1970s was some terrible stone age let's not forget that's when the MARTA came along and the Omni and the Peachtree Plaza and Peachtree Center and Colony Square and Tower Place and whatnot, much of which is what made Atlanta what it is. Not to mention the Fox and so forth. I shudder to think what this town would have been like without all that 1970s thinking.

cybele, you and boomhaur may have been separated at birth.

and before you start with that line about it's not nice to poke at a man simply because of the way he talks, i have to say boomhaur is one of my favorite KOTH characters.

• Video Link

[Rail Claimore]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

huh? what? i don't think anybody thought the interstates would prop up the central cities....the interstate highway program was not based on urban renewal. the interstates were conceived as a means to moving masses of people and commerce between states and cities via highway and connecting nodes in metropolitan areas.

You are right that the original and main intent of the interstate system was as a means of moving people and goods inter-state. But numerous people in power in big cities back in the 1950's and 1960's had a say in wanting urban interstates to serve their central business districts as a means of keeping employment numbers high and tax dollars rolling in, even in traditionally centralized office markets. Chicago is a perfect example of this. Mayor Daley is the reason downtown Chicago is served by four expressways from the surrounding suburbs, two of which are among the busiest in the country.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by Rail Claimore

You are right that the original and main intent of the interstate system was as a means of moving people and goods inter-state. But numerous people in power in big cities back in the 1950's and 1960's had a say in wanting urban interstates to serve their central business districts as a means of keeping employment numbers high and tax dollars rolling in, even in traditionally centralized office markets. Chicago is a perfect example of this. Mayor Daley is the reason downtown Chicago is served by four expressways from the surrounding suburbs, two of which are among the busiest in the country.

ahh, the far reaching legacy of the daley's. doesn't chicago also serve as the termination point for one or more interstate?

i also think it's relevant to note that some cities used the interstates as a convenient tool to draw boundaries and dividing lines based on various demographic criteria.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

huh? what? i don't think anybody thought the interstates would prop up the central cities....the interstate highway program was not based on urban renewal. the interstates were conceived as a means to moving masses of people and commerce between states and cities via highway and connecting nodes in metropolitan areas.

Well if it was just about that you have to ask yourself then why it was so all-fired important to run every single interstate in Atlanta smack dab through the middle of downtown? Even today you'll hear somebody pop up and talk about moving the Interstate out of Downtown and you'll get the most godawful squalling about how it will kill downtown and nobody will be able to get to work any more.

Whatever, all I'm saying is these high speed streetcars and such are not the magic bullet. These interstates were the greatest transportation system ever created by human man when coupled with the automobile, but people just used them to spread on out which is what that wanted to do in the first place. Downtown Atlanta has had more interstates put in than you can shake a stick at but has it caused folks to move in? No. In fact I believe Georgia State did some study and they found that the MARTA had no impact on population or employment around the stations?

[cybele]

Originally Posted by atl2phx

i have know idea what a bessie bug is...

Well it's a pinching bug.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by cybele

In fact I believe Georgia State did some study and they found that the MARTA had no impact on population or employment around the stations?

i'd say lindbergh, (where i'm relocating in less than two months!) chamblee and north springs prove otherwise - but in any case, marta's kind of an anomaly in that it built heavy rail primarily with commuter-oriented stations, plenty of parking with limited/uninviting pedestrian access.

most of todays successful new lrt systems were built with walkability/desirability in mind - portland, denver, hell even dallas and st louis.

[cybele]

Well I am no expert, I was just thinking of this.

The Impact of Rapid Rail Transit on Economic Development: The Case of
Atlanta’s MARTA

This paper uses a simultaneous model of census tract population and employment to study the economic impacts of Atlanta's MARTA rail transit system. The results indicated that MARTA has had no discernible impact on total population or employment in station areas, but it has altered the composition of employment in these areas in favor of the public sector.

[cabasse]

guess i'm getting TOD and other high density development mixed up with "discernable economic impact"

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well if it was just about that you have to ask yourself then why it was so all-fired important to run every single interstate in Atlanta smack dab through the middle of downtown? Even today you'll hear somebody pop up and talk about moving the Interstate out of Downtown and you'll get the most godawful squalling about how it will kill downtown and nobody will be able to get to work any more.

oh, i don't know about that, there are advocates for smart transportation solutions who believe getting rid of the downtown connector would be a wise move. for example, the post below from andrea suggests eliminating the connector. of course andrea doesn't post here any more....the two of you were like ships in the night....andrea left and and you appeared.

Originally Posted by Andrea

Oh, I think it's entirely possible to get rid of the connector. It's just a bunch of concrete -- a dinosaur from a different era, when fossil fuels were cheap and believed to be almost limitless. There's every reason to be thinking about smarter ways to make our cities work, and restructuring 1950's style monoliths into intelligent urban roadways should be near the top of the list.

One of the lessons we can learn from the mistakes of the past is that when it comes to urban transportation one size does not fit all. Freeways may be exactly what people want in the relatively lightly populated suburban areas. But they make no sense in the denser urban core, which is more suited to a sophisticated network of urban streets and mass transit. (How many people who actually live in Atlanta, for instance, find it necessary to use a 16-lane limited access highway to get around town?)

excuse me, but i still get a little misty eyed when i come across one of andrea's posts.

Originally Posted by cybele

Whatever, all I'm saying is these high speed streetcars and such are not the magic bullet. These interstates were the greatest transportation system ever created by human man when coupled with the automobile, but people just used them to spread on out which is what that wanted to do in the first place.

nobody's suggesting light rail is the magic bullet. light rail is a logical part of a larger transportation system that is more efficient for getting people around the more densely populated parts of the city and through some of the most heavily traveled corridors.

Originally Posted by cybele

Downtown Atlanta has had more interstates put in than you can shake a stick at but has it caused folks to move in? No. In fact I believe Georgia State did some study and they found that the MARTA had no impact on population or employment around the stations?

there's no doubt that the interstates were a catalyst to outward migration. that's obvious.

i find the GSU study highly questionable....i'd love to see it. there are obvious examples of marta stations where there have been increases in population, employment and/or a combination of the two. lenox, civic center, midtown, lindbergh, buckhead, north avenue, etc...

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by cabasse

i'd say lindbergh, (where i'm relocating in less than two months!) chamblee and north springs prove otherwise - but in any case, marta's kind of an anomaly in that it built heavy rail primarily with commuter-oriented stations, plenty of parking with limited/uninviting pedestrian access.

that, plus i recall reading somewhere (it may have been from someone on this forum) that the zoning around most marta stations maxes out at very high levels which in turn pushed up the property values and repelled a lot of potential mid-level density developments.