Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Millennium2002]

Not to go off topic even further... but it's not completely right to pass off SFU as a low-volume destination... the university still needs hundreds of bus trips to service it and there's a new residential community being built next door as well.

But anyway, back on topic. I find the grades topic to be somewhat interesting as I've rarely noticed them. There is a hill around where Broadway and 10th meet at Dunbar... I don't think it's very steep though given the distance between a station there and at Sasamat.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I recall this being discussed. It would mean a deep station at Sasamat to mitigate the grade. If built that way, theoretically stated by one member, the train could surface in the Endowment Lands (Pacific Spirit Park)

What's the reason for the UBC SkyTrain (that would be built underground from Fraser St to Sasamat St) suddenly having to poke up onto the surface (or be elevated) just because it has reached the UEL? Just leave it underground through the UEL right to the UBC "transit hub".

also, if SkyTrain LIMs can run trains at grades up to 10%, the Sasamat station wouldn't have to be so deep, since the SkyTrain tunnels can match the rise & fall of the local terrain.

[CBeats]

I was at Sasamat with my friend who lives there, and I was just looking around at the street and said "Yep, this'll be a skytrain stop eventually.."
And her response was not "Oh really? When?" or "Cool, I'd love to have that instead of the B-Line" or even "Where is it coming from?"
...it was "Oh no really? That's terrible. I don't want Point Grey to change. It's so nice and small. Change is bad!"
I tried to reason with her about it serving people other than the residents of Point Grey, but she didn't get it.

I find it unbelievable that this is the attitude of some people in Vancouver, who I suppose associate Skytrain with a devastating construction process and sketchy, Surrey-ish vandals and hoodlums.

...the same people who've never set foot on the Skytrain or ever been to Surrey...

[Alex Mackinnon]

This came up about a month ago. Just though I'd bring it back up to the front of the thread since someone brought it up.

Its pretty much a non issue. Theres 2 ways of mitigating the problem if there is any.

a) Build the station at Blanca because Sasamat to Blanca is relatively flat
b) Build the station at Trimble because Trimble to Discovery is relatively flat

The station just needs to be needs to be right near the toe of a steep section in the hill to minimize the station pit depth. Its not that big of a deal. The only downside to moving the station a block off of Sasamat is that you miss the big parcel of land at the Safeway site.

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Its not the UBC station you need to worry about actually. It Sasamat. There's about 4 km between Alma and UBC and at most 100m elevation to gain. There's about 80m to Sasamat and 1.5km.

Originally Posted by Zassk

An 80 m gain over 1500 m distance is a 5.3% grade. That can be done by SkyTrain according to what capotp said above, but is close to its limits. More likely, the tunnel would start as close to the surface as possible (maybe even at-grade) at the lower station, and then would have a deep station at the top of the hill, maybe 20 or 25 m deep. That way the grade would be less.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

What's the reason for the UBC SkyTrain (that would be built underground from Fraser St to Sasamat St) suddenly having to poke up onto the surface (or be elevated) just because it has reached the UEL? Just leave it underground through the UEL right to the UBC "transit hub".

also, if SkyTrain LIMs can run trains at grades up to 10%, the Sasamat station wouldn't have to be so deep, since the SkyTrain tunnels can match the rise & fall of the local terrain.

its cheaper above ground

[DKaz]

I don't remember the exact numbers but skytrain can do 6% sustained and up to 10% for short periods.

[cornholio]

I think I have said this before but imo a no brainer would be to get the federal government involved and to redevelop the military land in Point gray by moving the service to the burbs where they belong. This would mean runing the line through the site and building a station somewhere on the western side of the parcel and forgetting about Sasamat. That land would shell well over a billion dollars, enough to move the facilities, modernize them in their new location and help pay for a part of the line. On top of that the developers or developer would still probably develop a neighbourhood comparable to SEFC with all the amenities. On top of this the line would then be more profitable as that land if developed with a low rise high density neighbourhood could generate tons of passengers in the segment that will need them.

Everyone would benefit.

The only question is how do you get a inefficient and bureaucratic government involved. The benefits are clearly there but how do you get everyone on the same page and motivated enough to actually make it happen.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cornholio

I think I have said this before but imo a no brainer would be to get the federal government involved and to redevelop the military land in Point gray by moving the service to the burbs where they belong. This would mean runing the line through the site and building a station somewhere on the western side of the parcel and forgetting about Sasamat. That land would shell well over a billion dollars, enough to move the facilities, modernize them in their new location and help pay for a part of the line. On top of that the developers or developer would still probably develop a neighbourhood comparable to SEFC with all the amenities. On top of this the line would then be more profitable as that land if developed with a low rise high density neighbourhood could generate tons of passengers in the segment that will need them.

Everyone would benefit.

The only question is how do you get a inefficient and bureaucratic government involved. The benefits are clearly there but how do you get everyone on the same page and motivated enough to actually make it happen.

Already in the works. But the base is not moving to the burbs.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by CBeats

I was at Sasamat with my friend who lives there, and I was just looking around at the street and said "Yep, this'll be a skytrain stop eventually.."
And her response was not "Oh really? When?" or "Cool, I'd love to have that instead of the B-Line" or even "Where is it coming from?"
...it was "Oh no really? That's terrible. I don't want Point Grey to change. It's so nice and small. Change is bad!"
I tried to reason with her about it serving people other than the residents of Point Grey, but she didn't get it.

I find it unbelievable that this is the attitude of some people in Vancouver, who I suppose associate Skytrain with a devastating construction process and sketchy, Surrey-ish vandals and hoodlums.

...the same people who've never set foot on the Skytrain or ever been to Surrey...

Fine. Tunnel right past them to UBC and don't bother putting in a station there. That would reduce the grade by a few % since the tunnel between Alma and the UBC Transit hub can be a straighter line.

When they change their minds in 20, 30, 50, 100 years they can add a special tax levy to their properties to build a new station.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Fine. Tunnel right past them to UBC and don't bother putting in a station there. That would reduce the grade by a few % since the tunnel between Alma and the UBC Transit hub can be a straighter line.

When they change their minds in 20, 30, 50, 100 years they can add a special tax levy to their properties to build a new station.

I second this thought. If they don't want it. Screw them.

To the people who actually live in the area and would benefit from it on this board. I have nothing against you. It just idiot nimbies that I'm against.

It took over 30 years to finally get the Canada Line, because of all the bloody nimbyism along Cambie, Oak, Granville and Arbutus.

[Xerx]

Interesting blog post by Jarrett Walker on the Broadway skytrain.

vancouver: the great broadway debate

The big rail transit debate in Vancouver at the moment concerns Broadway. You might call it Vancouver's Wilshire Boulevard: not always a beautiful street but a very important one. It's the direct line east from the University of British Columbia at the west end of the city, and goes through a major office core, including Vancouver City Hall, just south of downtown proper. It's the busiest east-west arterial in the entire city, and the site of one of the busiest bus lines in North America, the 99. It has everything you need for successful rail transit, except consensus. Here again is the City of Vancouver's network, with the Broadway corridor in dark orange.[...]

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/02/vanc...nd-the-dangers-of-interrupted-grids.html

[CLC]

Not recommended reading... Yet another Vancouver sun author wrote about transit , including this statement for Broadway corridor

Streetcars would be much the cheaper option for the proposed service along Broadway to the University of B.C., whereas a SkyTrain is priced at almost $3 billion. Rough estimates from elsewhere suggest a streetcar would cost from a quarter to an eighth as much as a SkyTrain.

http://www.vancouversun.com/opinion/Vancouver+makes+timely+transit+pitch/2620821/story.html

[Millennium2002]

Is it just me or do people still think a streetcar will help solve Broadway's traffic woes? We don't need glorified bus service anymore... we need rapid transit!

The opinion offered by Jarrett Walker is interesting though. It is quite true that demand for rapid transit will probably drop after 10th Ave. On the other hand, there are new residential developments that are being built at UBC and I'm not sure if that was factored in as a possible new source of transit riders. And wouldn't an extra transfer cause more inconveniences like what is occurring with the Scarborough RT and the Green Line in Toronto?

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by CLC

Not recommended reading... Yet another Vancouver sun author wrote about transit , including this statement for Broadway corridor

http://www.vancouversun.com/opinion/Vancouver+makes+timely+transit+pitch/2620821/story.html

There's one thing that almost everyone neglects and that is the OMC if the streetcar system is built on Broadway. Where the hell will that be built on the Broadway corridor? There's no land big enough to build one (there's no way the NIMBYs would let Translink/COV to build OMC on University golf course lands)!! That in itself already kills the argument to built the Broadway streetcar line. Does it justify the costs to build another OMC for mere switch in technology on the Broadway corridor? And where the hell can streetcar stations be built without making W.Broadway only one general traffic lane each way? How are they going to traverse from Broadway to W.10th Ave via Alma without negatively affecting consistency in frequency and scheduling?

There aren't a lot of smart people in Van's media/transit planning agencies.

BTW, MetroOne, have you finished your essay piece on Skytrain to UBC? Last time you told me you're on the process of final finishing touches. When will you post that on Van Sun/Province?

[andcarne]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

There aren't a lot of smart people in Van's media/transit planning agencies.

I wouldn't be quite so quick to blame the transit planning agencies. Yes the reporters and media often seem to be clueless about how this will really work, but they're just trying to get different angles on the story.

From what I have heard through various sources, including a brief discussion with some TransLink people at the last stakeholder consultation, it sounds like they are aware of the necessity of a separate right-of-way on this corridor. It sounds like they will be going with elevated or underground in the end (and to some degree have already decided this), however they have to at least be seen to conduct full consultation and discussion on alternative options as well.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by CLC

Not recommended reading... Yet another Vancouver sun author wrote about transit , including this statement for Broadway corridor

http://www.vancouversun.com/opinion/Vancouver+makes+timely+transit+pitch/2620821/story.html

Originally Posted by andcarne

I wouldn't be quite so quick to blame the transit planning agencies. Yes the reporters and media often seem to be clueless about how this will really work, but they're just trying to get different angles on the story.

From what I have heard through various sources, including a brief discussion with some TransLink people at the last stakeholder consultation, it sounds like they are aware of the necessity of a separate right-of-way on this corridor. It sounds like they will be going with elevated or underground in the end (and to some degree have already decided this), however they have to at least be seen to conduct full consultation and discussion on alternative options as well.

But once ordinary citizens read misinformed editorials like the top link I've quoted on Van Sun, they will readily believe that streetcars are the way to go without thinking twice about it. And they those people will immediately form more and more Zwei and Rail For Fraser Valley-like groups advocating for them.

One thing I fear the most is people quickly jumping into conclusions and using the success of the Olympic streetcar line as the impetus in building the streetcar on the Broadway corridor, not the success of the Skytrain system in handling crowds during the Olympics.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

One thing I fear the most is people quickly jumping into conclusions and using the success of the Olympic streetcar line as the impetus in building the streetcar on the Broadway corridor, not the success of the Skytrain system in handling crowds during the Olympics.

Well, personally I'd like to see street cars going down or running parallel to every major corridor in the city... Using an ever-expanding skytrain system as the main artery they feed.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Well, personally I'd like to see street cars going down or running parallel to every major corridor in the city... Using an ever-expanding skytrain system as the main artery they feed.

Great concept, C.M. !!

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Great concept, C.M. !!

I thought I was simply spitting out the no-brainer solution. Stick both Skytrain and Streetcar down the Broadway corridor over time.

Question is, where the hell you gonna fit the streetcar? Broadway is too narrow and it is surrounded by small residential streets... Unless one of them is gentrified and turned into a bike/walk/streetcar only lane...

I'd love to see a cobblestone commercial street lined with aged Maple, Oak, and Arbutus trees, a streetcar running down the middle. Dunno if the Broadway corridor and parrellel streets are the appropriate location for this though. Thoughts?

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

But once ordinary citizens read misinformed editorials like the top link I've quoted on Van Sun, they will readily believe that streetcars are the way to go without thinking twice about it. And they those people will immediately form more and more Zwei and Rail For Fraser Valley-like groups advocating for them.

One thing I fear the most is people quickly jumping into conclusions and using the success of the Olympic streetcar line as the impetus in building the streetcar on the Broadway corridor, not the success of the Skytrain system in handling crowds during the Olympics.

That is only a problem is the planners foolishly listen to the people. In this case I'm all for dictatorship.

To me this is like a court trial. The judge already has the verdict in their head (ie skytrain). Now all they have to do is make it look like a fair trial is being run. But no matter what the prosecution or defense says. The judge will never be swayed.