Decision 2010: Calgary Municipal Election

[MalcolmTucker]

^ He ran in the past, placed 3rd or 4th. I wouldn't think so - he might be tempted to run for the 'Alberta Party' however.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

To help prove my point look at provincial politics in Alberta. When the PCs came to power in 1971 the population wasn't much more than 1.5 million compared to 3.7 million now. I've heard and read so many times over the years that as more immigrants come here that the Conservatives would be voted out of office because the existing population would be overrun. The people originally here would always say that newcomers would see why we are the way we are and that they would become just like us. And it's been like that for close to 40 years. Basically what I'm saying is that a lot of people come here with preconceived ideas about Albertans but once they've been here awhile (definitely less than 10 years and probably less than 5) they learn why we don't trust Ottawa, are more entrepreneurial, etc. When the Conservatives lose in 2012 (barring a major miracle) it'll be because of their own stupidity and not because of "immigrants."

So overall newcomers/immigrants are not a problem in the sense you mention.

I think you missed my entirely tongue-in-cheek post, but that's good because it's prompted you to post exactly what I say to everyone who is scared of immigrants. Whether it's at the municipal, provincial, or federal level. I continually hear people bemoaning how immigrants are going to "take over" and "change our way of life", and yet historically we see exactly what you describe above - people learn very quickly why we do things the way we do, and for the most part, embrace it.

I see this misconception most commonly on a federal level (we're all supposed to be worshiping Mohammed by now, according to some), but I notice it very strongly in Calgary at the city level, and when you make comments about "real Calgarians", that's how you sometimes come across, at least to some of us. I suspect you feel exactly the opposite from what you've just written.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

^ He ran in the past, placed 3rd or 4th. I wouldn't think so - he might be tempted to run for the 'Alberta Party' however.

Interesting. A reaction to the Alberta Liberals stubbornness and stagnancy?

[BFHeadstone]

I am placing my bid behind Bigtime as well

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

I am born and raised here, 29 years as of Friday. I grew up in suburbia and over time my view has changed to a more urban lifestyle, so I don't count as a Calgarian now in your view? Ditto for my wife.

I'm not a hardcore everyone must live in the inner-city person either, I just want to make it more accessible and affordable for those that want to raise a family there.

Thanks Bigtime. Now I feel old.

[DizzyEdge]

All I want from a new council is:

1 - progressive ideas so that Calgary's growth can be managed in a way that is cost effective and doesn't guarantee future gridlock or unnecessary infrastructure maintenance costs.
2 - some fiscal conservatism so that the priorities from "1" are the biggest wins for the bucks
3 - assuming every progressive idea is to solve a problem, or a future problem, some proper salesmanship of the ideas, vs 'we know best', followed by 'ok fine we're doing a study to show why our idea is good'... instead it should be 'hey Calgarians we know you dislike this problem' or 'hey you may not realize but this will be a problem down the road', followed by 'although this may rub some people the wrong way, we've determined this is the best way to deal with this, but we're open to better ideas'
4 - someone who can get govt money like Bronco did.

That's about it.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by lubicon

Thanks Bigtime. Now I feel old.

Don't worry, Vascilli makes me feel old!

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

It's those people that should be banned from voting until they've been here long enough to understand why things work the way they do.

As someone with democratic sensibilities, I am deeply offended by this comment. If you don't like the way people vote, move somewhere else. Everyone, regardless of how long they have lived somewhere, their grasp of issues or their ideologies, has an equal say in our society. It is called democracy and it is the system of government and society that we have had since the foundation of our country. Democracy is about accepting the fact that others won't think the same way you do. You should learn to deal others' ideology, because everyone else has to deal with yours. Welcome to Canada, we aren't oligarchs here, I thought you would understand this living here so long. I think immigrants have a better grasp on this concept than you seem to.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I think you missed my entirely tongue-in-cheek post, but that's good because it's prompted you to post exactly what I say to everyone who is scared of immigrants. Whether it's at the municipal, provincial, or federal level. I continually hear people bemoaning how immigrants are going to "take over" and "change our way of life", and yet historically we see exactly what you describe above - people learn very quickly why we do things the way we do, and for the most part, embrace it.

I see this misconception most commonly on a federal level (we're all supposed to be worshiping Mohammed by now, according to some), but I notice it very strongly in Calgary at the city level, and when you make comments about "real Calgarians", that's how you sometimes come across, at least to some of us. I suspect you feel exactly the opposite from what you've just written.

The amusing thing is that so many migrants to Calgary have traditionally come from small towns in Saskatchewan and the BC Interior. I'd lay good odds that as a group they're more likely to agree with Corndogger's vision for the city than younger born and bred Calgarians. Of course my views are un-Calgarian, despite being born at the Holy Cross with grand parents born in Alberta, so I don't count.

[jeffwhit]

^^^Yeah, go back to.... um....

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

You make it seem like where you were raised doesn't have an impact on your values and how you view various issues.

Actually, I was poking a bit of fun at your implication that where you live totally influences your values, which set off a storm of comments about what what "real or long-term Calgarians" think. I worked at Esso during their office move from Toronto to Calgary - talked to a lot of former Torontonians - let me tell you: we have a lot more in common with them than we'd like to admit.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Promoting Growth--Didn't Bronco on at least two occassions get the development industry to pay for considerably more of the infrastructure in the new and existing areas they were working in? Plus, politicians should never think they can control growth. Just look at the mess Ed created because he thought he could.

I seem to recall something similar. Like the interchange south of Heritage on Deerfoot, paid for by developers as a condition to develop the shopping area there. We need more of that - especially for new home development. I'd like to know what the full cost of new infrastructure required to service a new home costs - and pass most, if not all of it on to the home buyer. The flip side is that the city has to make it easier to build apartments that are affordable by the masses. I doubt any serious candidate is going to come even close to suggesting that because, as you said, most people want a nice house in the 'burbs, even if it is turning the city into a sprawling mess.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Without knowing what McIver plans to do that is a tough question. I will say that Bronco's three terms were considerably better than Duerr's and that he did a lot to make up ground for the "lost" Duerr years. Was Bronco better than Ralph? That would be an interesting comparison.

I base my opinion on McIver based on his past actions. I don't care what he says he's gonna do - like any politician he can promise anything, but what he can deliver on will be less.

Klein was better than Bronco. I never trusted Bronco for a second based on his closed-door style of administration. Klein had the balls to build the NE LRT line in the middle of a major recession; that was a lifeline to many in the construction industry, during a much darker period that we are experiencing now. '88 Olympics - huge success, definitely in part due to the City's support. Besides, if I ever wanted to bend Ralph's ear, I'd just have to head down to the Louie after work to give him a piece of my mind.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

I worked at Esso during their office move from Toronto to Calgary - talked to a lot of former Torontonians - let me tell you: we have a lot more in common with them than we'd like to admit.

I totally agree. Let's just say that Calgarians and Torontonians are a lot closer than say Calgarians are to those from Nanton in their actual opinion on issues. It's natural because people in big cities have face similar issues and have similar concerns - basically a very similar outlook on things (for those who don't know, I currently live in Toronto).

[freeweed]

Pfft, Calgarians have watched their hockey team make the playoffs in living memory, never mind that old Stanley Cup thing. I think I've met 3 living people who actually remember Toronto winning one.

Calgarians do have something in common with Torontonians though - plenty of people in both cities have come from somewhere else, especially other Canadian towns and cities, and for the most part will never leave. Transplanted folks in both cities are some of the strongest boosters of their respective new homes. "Born and bred" types in both cities tend to be a bit meh about the city and take a lot of what it offers for granted.

It reminds me of smokers - just as you'll never meet a stronger anti-smoking advocate than an ex-smoker, you'll never meet as strong a booster of Calgary/Toronto as someone who moved there as an adult.

[korzym]

Originally Posted by fusili

As someone with democratic sensibilities, I am deeply offended by this comment. If you don't like the way people vote, move somewhere else. Everyone, regardless of how long they have lived somewhere, their grasp of issues or their ideologies, has an equal say in our society. It is called democracy and it is the system of government and society that we have had since the foundation of our country. Democracy is about accepting the fact that others won't think the same way you do. You should learn to deal others' ideology, because everyone else has to deal with yours. Welcome to Canada, we aren't oligarchs here, I thought you would understand this living here so long. I think immigrants have a better grasp on this concept than you seem to.

lynch mobs are democratic.

[korzym]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Pfft, Calgarians have watched their hockey team make the playoffs in living memory, never mind that old Stanley Cup thing. I think I've met 3 living people who actually remember Toronto winning one.

Calgarians do have something in common with Torontonians though - plenty of people in both cities have come from somewhere else, especially other Canadian towns and cities, and for the most part will never leave. Transplanted folks in both cities are some of the strongest boosters of their respective new homes. "Born and bred" types in both cities tend to be a bit meh about the city and take a lot of what it offers for granted.

It reminds me of smokers - just as you'll never meet a stronger anti-smoking advocate than an ex-smoker, you'll never meet as strong a booster of Calgary/Toronto as someone who moved there as an adult.

what survey did you find this in?

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by fusili

As someone with democratic sensibilities, I am deeply offended by this comment. If you don't like the way people vote, move somewhere else. Everyone, regardless of how long they have lived somewhere, their grasp of issues or their ideologies, has an equal say in our society. It is called democracy and it is the system of government and society that we have had since the foundation of our country. Democracy is about accepting the fact that others won't think the same way you do. You should learn to deal others' ideology, because everyone else has to deal with yours. Welcome to Canada, we aren't oligarchs here, I thought you would understand this living here so long. I think immigrants have a better grasp on this concept than you seem to.

Don't lecture me about democracy and everyone having an equal say in our society, especially in this country. To be honest, I can't believe you actually wrote that. Do you actually believe the average person has the same say as someone with a lot of money or as someone involved in a politically active special interest group? Just because they have the same single vote as everyone else sure doesn't mean they have the same say. Often, they don't even have a chance to have their say.

I clearly shouldn't have used the charged wording I first used when I posted about voting but what I said that Freeweed replied to. I will stick to my guns when I say that I'm opposed to newcomers coming here and telling us how we should live and trying to implement their views on us through the back door. I have no problem with them criticizing the hell out of the way things are done here but the way they try to force change on people. And yes I'm well aware that city council makes the decisions but it's very hard to mount a last minute challenge successfully when these groups have been talking to council members and the administration for months with no other public input. If these people are so damn big on democracy then why don't they bring their concerns and plans out into the public first? By any chance is it because they only believe in democracy when it suits them? I'm the one who is a huge advocate of referundums and initiatives so don't tell me that I don't understand democracy or that I can't deal with other people's ideology.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Yeah, where did that come from?

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I will stick to my guns when I say that I'm opposed to newcomers coming here and telling us how we should live and trying to implement their views on us through the back door.

Ok, then stop having newcomers come here. So you want "newcomers" but only if they fit your provincial ideology and you don't want them to have any belief system or political viewpoint of their own? Good luck dude. I also wish I could control the universe, but sometimes it just ain't so.

Look, if you don't like or want immigrants, fine. But then you also have to deal with the massive labour shortage and inflation that will be a result of this. Look, either you can live in a stagnant economy with little immigration, or deal with the fact that for an economy to grow it needs new pools of labour, and until North Americans actually start having children, you are going to have to deal with immigrants. So if you don't want people to come here and "implement their views on us through the back door" then either deal with a stagnant economy, or have more kids who are willing to work low-income jobs. Welcome to the 21st century, it isn't 1946 anymore. Good luck adapting to our society with your viewpoint.