Halifax Stadium Discussion

[c-way-dude]

I am in total agreement with those who want to go ahead without the HRM. While I have never personally set up a trust fund, it can't be terribly hard. Every once in a while you see a trust fund set up for someone with a rare medical condition that requires a treatment that isn't paid for by government. You'll also occasionally see a trust fund set up for a family with no insurance who loses everything in a fire.
The question that I would have is how is the trust fund going to be managed. Will decisions be made by whoever leads the cause, or will there be something like a Board of Directors to decide where the money would go?
I also agree that we need someone in Halifax, with the skills and the persistence to work for the cause. The primary jobs of this person will be to bring a wide variety of business and non-business people together for the cause, and to give people who are supportive confidence that investing in a trust fund could actually help accomplish something.
As for the politicians, the vast majority are followers, not leaders. The key is to come up with a plan that most people can accept. The Commonwealth Games bid enjoyed very solid public support before the budget ballooned. It would be nice if this could gain enough support to become an election issue.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Worldhaligonian and dmont, you are 100% right. One thing that I realize from speaking to the councillors and working on the 3D models is that there is a great deal of work to be done. As you stated dmont, "The trust funds and the 3D and scale models were all a means to sell the idea".

I am quoting myself here, but what I said previously is not entirely true. I really think that a sunken bowl design would be a good economical solution for a stadium in the HRM that would produce an attractive stadium. With proper landscaping it could be a very appealing stadium. If the row height is kept to 14 inches per row (this is the row height at Princeton Stadium http://www.princeton.edu/football/pustad.htm ) and the lower bowl of seats is 24 rows (i.e the entire first stage) then there would be 20,000 - 22,000 seats in the lower tier (if the lower bowl is completely finished including the end zones). Then later when the second tier is completed, it would have very low exterior walls which would keep the cost down and it would be an unobtrusive design. At 14 inches per row and 24 rows with the first row being 4 feet above field level, the first tier would be 32 feet deep. Another idea, if it could be built at Young and Windsor and there was a significant amount of bedrock then operate it as a quarry for a couple of years, have the rock crushed on site with a rock crusher similar to the ones used at quarries. If this is the proper type of rock it could be sold to construction sites close to the peninsula as gravel. If nothing else this might pay for the cost of trucking it off-site. Then instead of it being raised by 10 - 15 feet (as would be the case if the rock was kept on site but piled up) the entrance to the bottom bowl would be at street level. This would reduce the cost even further since it would cut way down on the number of stairs and access ramps. Basically the first stage would be almost invisible from street level. The concourse would be at street level and all seats in the lower bowl would be accessed by walking down to the seats (as is the case in many stadiums). In fact, if the lower bowl were 28 row then this would seat about 25,000 and then a second tier of seats would not be required. All seats would be accessed from street level and this would greatly reduce construction cost. Then for large events, temporary seats could be added at street level at the ends. I would like to do a model of this design.

Recent sunken bowl designs are: Detroit's Ford Field and Dallas Cowboys new stadium.

To prevent the stadium from becoming an overly imposing presence in the Detroit skyline, the playing field and lower bowl (100 level) were set below street level, similar to the design at adjacent Comerica Park. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Field

April 2006: Excavation begins by Mario Sinacola and Sons Excavating. By August, they had moved over 1.4 million cubic yards of earth, shaping a 13 acre to 14 acre stadium bowl an average of 54 feet (16 m) deep. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboys_Stadium

The two above designs weren't sunken to save cost but for convenience; there is a lot less climbing to get to seats and it makes for a less obtrusive design.

I am really annoyed with HRM city. There are economical solutions and locations for a stadium, someone at city hall just needs to think about HRM area sports fans and get this done.

Another sunken bowl design is the planned Hamilton Pan-AM 2015 Stadium that will be used by the Hamilton Tiger-cats after the Pan-Am games (below). To keep the cost significantly lower, instead of building costly 2nd level tiers of seats, increase the size of the sunken bowl (this is just a hole in the ground with cement rows and it is accessed from the top as in the image below for the lowest bowl of seats). It seems like many newly constructed and newly proposed stadiums are being built with a sunken lower bowl.


source ( http://coldneck.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/its-seven-oclock-and-i-want-to-rock/ )

Another reason for setting up a strong group (Advocates for an HRM Stadium, i.e. Ad-HRMS) in the HRM is that if there really is a group with a strong proposal then there will be a group to help promote it through the HRM. Without support for any new stadium proposal it could be opposed by groups like those that opposed the Commonwealth Games.

[dmont]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Another reason for setting up a strong group (Advocates for an HRM Stadium, i.e. Ad-HRMS) in the HRM is that if there really is a group with a strong proposal then there will be a group to help promote it through the HRM. Without support for any new stadium proposal it could be opposed by groups like those that opposed the Commonwealth Games.

Bingo.

[fenwick16]

I was looking for an image of the 2010 Stadium Proposal (prior to the 2014 proposal) and came across this interesting article in The Coast: http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/game-over/Content?oid=961424 . (I wasn't able to find the previous 2010 stadium proposal although I have seen renderings in the past).

Reading the article, I can see how the cost of the Commonwealth Games would scare supporters away. To me this is one more reason for going with a moderately priced stadium (but not at the low end either) that will not result in a lot of opposition. Having grown up in Nova Scotia, I believe that Nova Scotians tend to be thrifty and practical minded people who would prefer facilities that they can afford. A stadium advocacy group can give opinions on what price range people will accept.

In the end, the HRM and all of Nova Scotia will have what they wanted from the Commonwealth Games, a stadium, at a fraction of the price.

[c-way-dude]

The ironic thing about the ballooning budget for the 2014 Commonwealth Games was the fact that the costs of building a stadium did not go up that much. IIRC, the stadium would have cost $109 million in the initial bid, and $121 million in the final bid. Part of this increase was due to the fact that organizers had decided to go from 15000 temporary seats (for a total of 40000 seats) to 25000 temporary seats (for a total of 50000 seats).
Based on BMO Field ($63 million), and NCAA stadiums mentioned in this thread, I think a suitable stadium could be built for somewhere between $75 and $100 million.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

The ironic thing about the ballooning budget for the 2014 Commonwealth Games was the fact that the costs of building a stadium did not go up that much. IIRC, the stadium would have cost $109 million in the initial bid, and $121 million in the final bid. Part of this increase was due to the fact that organizers had decided to go from 15000 temporary seats (for a total of 40000 seats) to 25000 temporary seats (for a total of 50000 seats).
Based on BMO Field ($63 million), and NCAA stadiums mentioned in this thread, I think a suitable stadium could be built for somewhere between $75 and $100 million.

That is a good point, the 25,000 extra temporary seats don't need to be included in the price. Also, in order to win the Commonwealth Games I think that it was felt that a grandiose stadium would be required (based on what I have read). In order to keep the cost down the stadium could be built with 15, 000 - 20,000 permanent seats seats with 5,000 - 10,000 temporary seats and then once the stadium proves its worth it can be expanded with more permanent seats. In many ways, I think that 25,000 seats is a good size for the CFL since there won't be an oversupply of tickets. So fewer tickets might create more demand and higher average ticket prices.

[c-way-dude]

I do not believe that the CFL would accept a stadium that did not have at least 25000 permanent seats.
The reason that I believe a stadium could be built for less than $100 million is the fact that the Commonwealth Games stadium had an initial cost of $109 million including 15000 temporary seats. From the artist's conception, it looked like very little, if any, of the stadium was "sunken". The stadium seemed to feature 25000 permanent seats along the sidelines, with the temporary seats behind the end zones.
Money could be saved using a sunken bowl. Less support structure would be needed if the stadium were bowl or horseshoe-shaped. There would be fewer seats along the sidelines, and they would not be nearly as high. I figure something along the lines of old Varsity Stadium in Toronto ( horseshoe-shaped with about 27000 seats), or something like BC Place Stadium without the upper deck or roof (about 29000 seats). The Lions closed off the upper deck of BC Place for a few years and still were able to get by. The Argos also closed off the upper deck at SkyDome for a few years.
Any temporary seats that would have to be added to host a Grey Cup could affordably be put around the existing stadium, as the top of the stadium would be at, or just slightly above, ground level.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

I do not believe that the CFL would accept a stadium that did not have at least 25000 permanent seats.
The reason that I believe a stadium could be built for less than $100 million is the fact that the Commonwealth Games stadium had an initial cost of $109 million including 15000 temporary seats. From the artist's conception, it looked like very little, if any, of the stadium was "sunken". The stadium seemed to feature 25000 permanent seats along the sidelines, with the temporary seats behind the end zones.
Money could be saved using a sunken bowl. Less support structure would be needed if the stadium were bowl or horseshoe-shaped. There would be fewer seats along the sidelines, and they would not be nearly as high. I figure something along the lines of old Varsity Stadium in Toronto ( horseshoe-shaped with about 27000 seats), or something like BC Place Stadium without the upper deck or roof (about 29000 seats). The Lions closed off the upper deck of BC Place for a few years and still were able to get by. The Argos also closed off the upper deck at SkyDome for a few years.
Any temporary seats that would have to be added to host a Grey Cup could affordably be put around the existing stadium, as the top of the stadium would be at, or just slightly above, ground level.

This would be the cheapest design and depending on the design I think that it could be done for far less than $100 million. A compact stadium will cost far less per seat than a massive 50,000 seat stadium since all the extra ramps and exterior walls will greatly add to the cost (a very good book on this is "Stadia" by Geraint John et al. which can be ordered from Amazon.com, http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/07506684...WYIK6Y9EEQB&pf_rd_r=1TDP6ZTGK8FWZYB18RFD ). A sunken bowl with 30 rows and a complete bowl would seat about 30,000. This is especially advantageous if there is a sunken location available to save excavation cost. Even without a sunken location, it is advantageous since the stadium will likely be built on top of bedrock and then loose soil is not a problem as it has been with SMU Huskies stadium. I am working on a couple more 3-D designs based on this principle (I enjoy it as a hobby and I think that it a good way to get people's opinions on a suitable stadium design). One thing that I realize from doing the 3-D model is that as the number of rows in the sunken bowl increases then the width and length of the stadium must also increase since there must be space at the top for washrooms and movement of spectators. If the site width is limited then it is better to have only 20 - 22 rows sunken and then have 14 - 16 rows raised with washrooms and concourse below the upper tier of seats. This increases the cost but in order to have the stadium in a central location it might be required. It will also provide an area for luxury and media boxes plus the required wheelchair access area. Having a 3-D conceptual models allows me to basically sit (virtually) in the 3-D model and check to see if there are obscured views in various seats.

Very detailed computer models can be drawn with every nut and bolt included. Such a detailed model can then be analysed with FEA (Finite Element Analysis) computer programs that can calculate stresses in various structural members. This would take months of work but this is something that the city could start without it costing a lot of money. They could also set up a site selection committee without it costing much money (if current city staff is used). In fact the site really needs to be selected before the detailed model can be drawn since the design will most likely depend on the site selected. (I am designing a conceptual model based on the Windsor and Young DND location which in the end might not be available). What would really give me hope for an HRM stadium (along with many thousands of other sports fans and concert-goers) would be if they selected a site and then spent the money required to purchase it.

I have attached an image of a sunken bowl of 22 rows, and 16 raised on each sideline. This isn't an elaborate stadium but I think that it could be economically built. By adding some exterior precast concrete archways it is slightly more presentable. It would seat about 28,000 with room in the endzone area for about another 7 - 8,000 for large events. I have drawn it so that the field would be large enough for international soccer and a Canadian size football field. The reason for the octagonal shape is that it is more compact than an oval. The Carrier Dome has a similar octagonal shape ( http://www.webtickets.com/SeatingCharts/NewYork/CarrierDomeSyracuseOrangemen.asp ). The reason for slanting the endzone corner seats (instead of a rectangle) is to allow for easier viewing of action far down the field.

I have a question for the people who attended the CFL game at Huskies Stadium: were the end zones seats poor seats? I have drawn the stadium with the end zones complete in the lower bowl; being such a compact stadium model maybe some people would like end zone seats close to the action (you can't get any closer as far as touchdowns go).

At the top of the second tier (under the roof) there is additional room for sky boxes or another row of seats without much obstruction. In this model, the wheelchair accessible area is between the lower and upper tier of seats and would be directly accessible from street level. I have uploaded a copy of the model to Google 3D Warehouse. If anyone is interested in getting the Google Sketchup 3D model you will need the Google Setchup program to open it but you can obtain the legal free version at http://sketchup.google.com/ . Once you have the Sketchup program, open it and then go to the download model section and search for Halifax, Nova Scotia Stadium. With the Sketchup program you can virtually walk through the model and position a camera at various points in the 3-D model. You will also be able to make changes to the model.

[fenwick16]

MaritimeCFLFan started a thread at CFL.com at http://forums.cfl.ca/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51659&p=849005#p849005 which refers to this thread. I have requested that people on that forum who are interested in having a Halifax Stadium and eventually a CFL team to please send letters (or emails) to Mayor Kelly and the councillors to explain the benefits of having a CFL team in their own city. So far one person has written a very good letter (refer to legalbeagle's letter on page 4 of the thread) and sent it to Mayor Kelly. The response is at http://forums.cfl.ca/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51659&p=849005#p849005.

Could someone explain to me why the city can proceed with a new library, a new convention centre, talk about a new 12,000 seat Metro Centre for $100 million, etc. but why they can't even mention a stadium at city hall during their weekly meetings? They are not even willing to set up a trust fund so that individuals can contribute. I must be stupid; why can other public works projects get talked about and even proceed but the first step towards a stadium must be by the public sector? I have my own explanation which is purely related to politics: A $100 million Metro Centre with 12, 000 seats will have 150 events a year and appear to be a success even if none of those events are additional events than would have been held in the current Metro Centre. Going ahead with the site selection and first stage of a stadium will mean sticking their necks out even though it has a much greater chance of bringing new events to the city.

PS: I am liberally using the word "they" although I know that there are councillors who really do support a stadium and are interested in seeing one built. My apologies to the ones who support a new stadium.

[-Harlington-]

i have no idea why this city is not working for something of obvious benifit, the only ones there hurting are the citizens.
we could have had a team back in the 80s but it seems we had the same government then as well that wont go get things like this, all i can say is i wish we had monctons government.
I had no idea we were going for a new 12000 seat arena, which i think is absolutely ridiculous since the metro centre has about 10000 now, a 2000 seat change isnt going to make much of a difference.

[haligonia]

Plus, the Metro Centre isn't even sold out half the time, sometimes for concerts maybe, but last time I checked the Mooseheads and the Rainmen weren't getting great attendance.

[fenwick16]

How about the following motto for "Advocates for an HRM Stadium"

We must all be stupid because we can't understand why the city can't start making plans for a stadium.

I hope this doesn't offend anybody but I really feel stupefied by the explanation that the private sector must make the first move.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

How about the following logo for "Advocate for an HRM Stadium"

We must all be stupid because we can't understand why the city can't start making plans for a stadium.

I hope this doesn't offend anybody but I really feel stupefied by the explanation that the private sector must make the first move.

Kelly and his shortsighted band of merry men are gun shy. Their primary concern is their job and they think that "STADIUM" sounds like Commonwealth Games" to the electorate. The electorate was duped by this crowd and everyone will pay for it when Moncton lands a CFL team.

[Phalanx]

This is one of those rare cases where I'm going to agree with Empire on a matter of politics. They won't take any risks at all for fear of losing their job. There are no leaders in Halifax city council for the city Halifax (Sorry, sorry "Halifax Regional Municipality"), just a bunch of self-interested managers.

[fenwick16]

Here is legalbeagle's letter from CFL.com to Mayor Kelly and all of the councillors: (source: http://forums.cfl.ca/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51659&p=849079#p849079 )

Dear Mr. Kelly,

I just wanted to write you a note to encourage you and the rest of Halifax City Council to give serious consideration to building a stadium to house an eventual CFL team, not to mention many other benefits that a stadium would bring.

I was born and raised in Saskatchewan. In a strange but real way, Saskatchewan and the Maritimes have a lot in common. We are very dependent on nature and her good fortune, be it farming or fishing. Both areas are working hard to diversify their economies, having more than a little success in oil and gas and beyond. But the most striking similarity is how a higher proportion of citizens of both tend to have to move out of the province/area for various reasons but their hearts stay behind - as we are fiercely proud of our roots and our respective provinces.

The reason I mention this is because I can see parallels also developing with Halifax/Regina and Saskatchewan/the Maritimes regarding how a CFL football team does/could galvanize that regional pride. The Roughriders give all Saskatchewanites – wherever they may now be located – a tangible sense of belonging, a symbol of success, a focal point for that fierce loyalty and pride that becomes tangible in what is now known as “Rider Pride”. Like Saskatchewan, a Halifax CFL team would be the only professional team of any sport in the region. I have every reason to believe that a CFL team in Halifax could and would similarly become a symbol, a magnet for encapsulating a similar pride that is always there, just looking for a catalyst to crystallize it and bring it out nationwide.

It is more than economics and stadiums – it is a feeling, a movement that cannot be measured. But even if one wants to talk strictly economics, I can tell you that I have visited every province and territory except two, one of them being Nova Scotia. I now live in the lower St. Laurent area of Québec, just a short train ride from Halifax. If Nova Scotia had a CFL team, I can assure you that I would be there every year for at least a couple of games (the Sask game being one of them, of course!!) every year. And in coming, I would be arranging groups every time. Who knows exactly how many would come – certainly if I target the Alouettes games as well, I would have a large gang – but it could easily be in the dozens at times. And we would almost certainly stay a couple of days each time, spending our discretionary income in your neck of the woods rather than somewhere else. And this is just one Canadian’s pledge – the CFL is big and getting bigger and stronger each year and Halifax needs to be a part of it to make it truly pan-Canadian.

My CFL includes Halifax – I invite you to make your Halifax do the same.

Your fellow Canadian,

[legalbeagle]
[legalbeagle's address and phone number]

A subsequent post by legalbeagle:

You may certainly post my letter on the skyscraperpage.com thread.

Yes, if city council and the private sector are both playing "blink" (who will blink first), it will never happen. Someone has to take charge and, in matters of public interest or at least to the extent that it is a matter of public interest, that is the leadership role that is expected of the political sphere - that is what they are elected for. The only thing that concerns me about what you wrote is the following line: "There is no way that I can see anyone in the private sector putting money into a Halifax Stadium. " Maybe you said it more categorically than you meant it (or maybe you meant "into the startup of a Halifax Stadium"), but if there is absolutely no private sector involvement, I don't see a municipal or even provincial government going forward without at least some private sector involvement. Even Sask - a historical bastion of socialist government - is expecting a contribution from the private sector.

Anyways, the letterwriting strategy is definitely a good one - in fed government circles, they say that a single letter to an MP is considered representative of 5000 constituents. The scale would be different for a municipal government, but the principle is the same. The thing is that, to have any impact, it really must come from those who can vote for the politician and who pay taxes to the government that the politician is a member of which, unfortunately, I do not do.

C'mon Halifax/Maritime residents - I could take less than 10 minutes out of one of my days to write your mayor a letter; surely you can do the same. If not enough people are willing to do even that, it will speak volumes that maybe Halifax doesn't have either the desire or the support to make a stadium and the CFL happen. But if there is that grassroots support, if the followers lead, eventually the leaders will follow.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Here is a link to another thread in Skyscraper that discusses other current and future stadium endeavors taking place in other Canadian cities. I only dream of the day Halifax is seriously discussing a similiar project.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=176229

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MaritimeCFLFan

Here is a link to another thread in Skyscraper that discusses other current and future stadium endeavors taking place in other Canadian cities. I only dream of the day Halifax is seriously discussing a similiar project.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=176229

This is my dream also. How do we get Mayor Kelly to share this dream?

[-Harlington-]

Originally Posted by haligonia

Plus, the Metro Centre isn't even sold out half the time, sometimes for concerts maybe, but last time I checked the Mooseheads and the Rainmen weren't getting great attendance.

actually the mooseheads usually have the highest attendance in the league, i think the rainmen are just starting to gain popularity and could do better.
but i think a CFL team would add to these definitely.

[David1gray]

mooseheads dont have great attendance this year because they arent doing good at all. last time i looked at their record they was 8 and 22......

[-Harlington-]

yeh, i think its one of the worst years in their history but somehow theres still a shot at the playoffs :/