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  #1441  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 7:48 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is online now
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I think you should go through on google street view to see 'on street lrt' in various cities. On street is very different in Edmonton than Toronto (St Claire).

Main difference besides stop spacing is that in Edmonton trains do not stop for cars ever. In Toronto, trains are subject to traffic lights.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s...iDm3cUiJsQdaQasXog&cbp=12,299.48,,0,0.14
vs
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s...bH0bgOpwhHfJhC3bA&cbp=12,103.15,,0,-5.28
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  #1442  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 7:49 PM
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  #1443  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 7:52 PM
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Construction starts next year

"The construction period is assumed to be the same for all three options with start in 2011 and completion by 2014 for opening of service in 2015."
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  #1444  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 8:22 PM
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So it's LRT for B-Line!
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  #1445  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 8:33 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
Stops at (for either LRT or BRT - to be in operations at 2015):

East Section
(Eastgate to Ottawa Street)
1. Eastgate Square
2. Nash Road
3. Parkdale Road
4. Queenston Traffic Circle
5. Kenilworth Avenue

Downtown
(Ottawa street to Longwood Road South)
6. Ottawa Street
7. Gage Avenue
8. Sherman Avenue
9. Wentworth Street
10. First Place
11. Gore Park
12. Bay Street
13. Queen Street
14. Dundurn Road

West Section
(Longwood Road South to University)
15. Westdale
16. Longwood Road/Main Street
17. McMaster University
This station spacing is very close to the current B-Line, distances varying from 500m to 1.5km the whole line, 500-800m for the central stretch.
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  #1446  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 8:37 PM
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The PDE workplan grant, executed in a 2009 agreement between Metrolinx and Hamilton, enables the city to build on the BCA results and continue to refine the case for LRT on the King-Main corridor, including:

• Detailed assessment of constraints and opportunities along the corridor
• Detailed route alignment and transit stop location alternatives
• Detailed ridership and level-of-service forecasts
• Detailed capital and operating costs
• Environmental Assessment (EA) process and public consultations

Metrolinx staff will continue to work collaboratively with Hamilton on the PDE workplan for the King-Main corridor and report back to the Metrolinx Board in late 2010 with a PDE workplan update.

RESOLVED:

• THAT the Metrolinx Board approve and publicly release the Hamilton King-Main Rapid Transit Benefit Case Analysis (BCA) report, demonstrating positive benefits for the Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), full Light Rail Transit (LRT) and phased LRT options;
• THAT the Board direct staff to continue to work collaboratively with the City of Hamilton on the planning, design and engineering (PDE) workplan for the King-Main corridor in 2010; and
• THAT staff report back to the Board in late 2010 with a PDE workplan status update.
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  #1447  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 8:59 PM
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  #1448  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 10:36 PM
bigguy1231 bigguy1231 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Dalton View Post
Intrusive and controversial, you still haven't explained why this is so in Hamilton versus any of the hundreds of other cities that did the same thing. Remember we have more lanes of traffic than just about anywhere else and we're talking about 2 lanes for LRT. You have not addressed these counterarguments, you just keep repeating the same thing. Seriously, how is such fear and uncertainty justified in the face of so much success? What makes Hamilton unique?
Get out of your LRT bubble and listen to people, not just people in your own little pro LRT group. There are genuine concerns that need to be addressed. Those concerns may be invalid and irrational but they are concerns all the same. If you want to see this come to pass, the masses need to be convinced. I have not met one person who lives on the mountain or in the outlying areas who sees any benefit of building it and they pay the bulk of the taxes in this city.

This is an election year, if there is any mention of city taxpayers paying one dime for this project there is going to be a revolt. That cost is just one of the concerns. Others include access to King street and across King street, changes in traffic patterns and the big one for businesses parking for their customers. There are numerous other concerns as well. You can't just say trust us it worked elsewhere so it will work here, which is essentially what we are being told.
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  #1449  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 11:40 PM
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See? You didn't answer my question, you just responded with some ridiculous comment about my 'pro-LRT group'. You mustn't seriously think I only associate with people who post on this board or go to LRT meetings. Why don't you just answer the question, it's the same one people have been asking you here since you joined. I want to believe you're really a concerned citizen, but posts like that make it difficult.
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Last edited by Jon Dalton; Feb 12, 2010 at 11:55 PM.
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  #1450  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 5:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
So it's LRT for B-Line!
Much as I'd love to agree, my reading suggests that the BCA finds that LRT has the most potential for benefits, but leaves the door open for the other alternatives and doesn't outright shut the door on BRT or phased LRT installation. Also, there is NO funding commitment, only a funding scenario that the province will then have to approve, and when they cut the cheque they may prefer the lower capital costs of BRT and that's what we'll get.
In other words, nothing is for certain, but its a good start.
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  #1451  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 6:11 AM
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Funding arrangement is completely up to the province. Metrolinx and the city will continue to "refine the case for LRT" it'll be LRT for the B-Line and construction will start next year.
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  #1452  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 6:25 AM
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It has been suggested in the past Hamilton would have to pay about 15% of the total cost so that would make it about $12 million. That shouldn't be a problem when Hamilton is paying $30 million for the randle reef cleanup.
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  #1453  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 6:42 AM
bigguy1231 bigguy1231 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Dalton View Post
See? You didn't answer my question, you just responded with some ridiculous comment about my 'pro-LRT group'. You mustn't seriously think I only associate with people who post on this board or go to LRT meetings. Why don't you just answer the question, it's the same one people have been asking you here since you joined. I want to believe you're really a concerned citizen, but posts like that make it difficult.
You obviously only comprehend things you want to believe.

Intrusive, it is going to essentially close one of the main thoroughfares in the city King St. It is going to cut off access to all side streets for people who want to turn left, as per the plans released by the city. That may not worry you, but it does worry people living and doing business in the areas effected. All 13 kms of the route thats alot of lost access.

Controversial, it is going to basically cut the lower city in half. It is going to funnel what was in alot of cases local traffic onto main streets making them even more congested than they already are. It will be Hamiltons version of the iron curtain.
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  #1454  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
RESOLVED:

• THAT the Metrolinx Board approve and publicly release the Hamilton King-Main Rapid Transit Benefit Case Analysis (BCA) report, demonstrating positive benefits for the Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), full Light Rail Transit (LRT) and phased LRT options;
• THAT the Board direct staff to continue to work collaboratively with the City of Hamilton on the planning, design and engineering (PDE) workplan for the King-Main corridor in 2010; and
• THAT staff report back to the Board in late 2010 with a PDE workplan status update.
They are only committing to further study through the end of 2010. There is no construction start date. They suggest in the report to start construction in 2011, but that's as far as it goes.

Quote:
It has been suggested in the past Hamilton would have to pay about 15% of the total cost so that would make it about $12 million.
Where are you getting the amount $12M? If the total cost of LRT is estimated at $784M, 15% of that amount would be $117.6 million. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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  #1455  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 2:55 PM
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Report: Get on board light rail

February 13, 2010
Meredith Macleod
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/721381

A light rail line stretching across the city would cut the cost of commuting by $852 million, according to a much-anticipated Metrolinx report.

That far outstrips the $313 million in so-called transportation user benefits, should the city go with bus rapid transit.

Those benefits, calculated over three decades, include savings in travelling time for transit and auto users, decreased costs of vehicle operation for drivers and the savings from reduced accidents.

The benefits case analysis (BCA) for the city's future rapid transit system was released by transportation planning agency Metrolinx yesterday.

The report compares three options against the status quo, including a phased LRT, and found that all three delivered benefits that outweighed their costs.

"These are very positive and encouraging results for Hamilton," said Rob Prichard, president and CEO of Metrolinx and former CEO of Torstar Corporation.

"This is a strong foundation for Hamilton's advocacy in favour of provincial investment in rapid transit."

The report made no recommendations about a transit mode. It envisions construction to begin in 2011 and finish in 2014, with service beginning in 2015.

Funding commitments from the province are still unknown.

The three options studied were:

* A bus-rapid transit line running along the current B-Line route from Eastgate Square to McMaster University. Bus rapid transit would significantly boost the frequency of buses and give them a dedicated lane away from other traffic. As well, buses would get priority at traffic signals.

The projected cost is $220 million.

* A light-rail line running from Eastgate to McMaster. The trains would also run in dedicated lanes and have signal priority.

The estimated cost is $784 million. This is the option preferred by the city.

* A phased-in light-rail line starting at Ottawa Street at King and running to Mac. The cost is estimated at $748 million. The remaining easterly portion of the line would be completed for 2030 at a cost of another $223 million.

All figures are in 2008 dollars.

Metrolinx staff concluded that all three options will satisfy expected demand and would result in net benefits.

When benefits are compared with costs, bus rapid transit is the best option at a ratio of 1.4 to 1. Both LRT options have a 1.1 to 1 ratio.

But when total benefits are accounted for -- including employment and wages, impacts on property values, development potential, ridership attraction, cuts to greenhouse gas emissions and rider comfort and convenience -- the full-route LRT is the clear winner.

"Overall, the results indicate that an investment in LRT in Hamilton will generate significant benefits and support the city's broader objectives to revitalize, redevelop and reshape its most significant east-west corridor," reads the report.

It goes on to say that while full LRT is the most expensive option, it also produces the greatest benefits across a range of areas, "all of which make an important contribution towards achieving the objectives and goals of both the city and the province."

Jill Stephen, the director of strategic planning for the city, said the analysis clearly shows rapid transit in Hamilton is a good investment.

"It's a very positive sign for us that all of the options show a positive benefit cost ratio. I don't know any other BCA that could say it has all positives."

She said the report quantifies the "city-building" and intangible benefits of LRT and how such a project could tie into other city initiatives like downtown revitalization.

"Hamilton is different and our needs for rapid transit are different than elsewhere in the GTA."

Advocate Nicholas Kevlahan celebrated the report's findings.

THE OPTIONS: BUS, TRAIN OR A MIX

OPTION 1: BUSES

* 18-metre articulated buses with a capacity of 90 people

* 17 station stops

* 14.2-kilometre route

* Would save drivers about 4.8 million kilometres a year by 2021

* Lowest overall economic and employment benefits

* Smallest reduction in greenhouse gas emissions (1,471 kilo tonnes by 2031)

OPTION 2: LIGHT RAIL

* 30-metre train with a capacity of 130 people per vehicle

* 17 station stops

* 14.2-kilometre route

* Offers the biggest reduction in greenhouse gas emissions (8,532 kilo tonnes by 2031)

* Largest employment and income benefits

* Would save drivers about 17 million kilometres a year by 2021

OPTION 3: PHASED-IN LIGHT RAIL, with buses on the eastern end of route

* LRT line stops at Ottawa Street; passengers travelling between McMaster and Eastgate will transfer onto buses

* 8.2 kilometres of LRT, 6 kilometres of buses

* 12 station stops LRT; 5 bus stops to be converted to LRT in 2030

* Would save drivers about 15 million kilometres a year by 2021

* Offers the same reduction in greenhouse gas emissions as full LRT (8,532 kilo tonnes by 2031)

CROSS-CITY TRAVEL TIMES

Total

minutes

Time between trains/cars

West

Downtown

East

Bus rapid transit 5 17 12 34 2 1/2 minutes

Light rail transit 4 13 9 26 2 1/2 minutes

Phased in rail 4 13 12 30* 4 minutes

THE MONEY

Bus system

Light rail

Phased light rail

Transportation

user benefits $313m $852m $748m

Costs $220m $784m $655m

Development $38m $50m $38m

potential to $77m to $144m to $106m

"This is really massive for Hamilton. There is nothing on the horizon that could have that kind of impact on Hamilton."

Kevlahan was disappointed, however, that the report did not make a definitive recommendation to go with LRT.

Metrolinx boss Prichard says the task at hand was to do careful analysis of options so that the best decisions can be made.

The agency is doing benefits case analyses of all 15 projects given priority in Metrolinx's Big Move report which set out transit goals across the GTA for the next 25 years.

The next step will be for the province to determine which projects it can finance, Prichard said.

"It would be premature to make a recommendation on this alone. We may at a later date be invited (by the province) to make a recommendation (on which mode of transit)... I expect that might happen and we'll be well-positioned to do so."

Metrolinx staff don't expect that any of the rapid transit options will attract enough increased fare revenue to pay for their increased operational costs but concludes that all three will attract people out of their cars.

The full LRT route could generate anywhere from $50 to $144 million in economic spinoffs, according to Metrolinx. That includes increased development and property value boosts along the corridor.

Bus rapid transit, which is traditionally believed to be less attractive to investors and riders, is projected to tally from $38 million to $77 million in development.

The phased LRT also begins at $38 million but goes up to $106 million.

All the forecasts are based on the assumption that the city will convert both Main and King streets to two-way traffic.

Metrolinx analysts warn that if that conversion doesn't happen, ridership projections will be cut, along with projected time savings for travellers. Economic uplift is also greater when transit is located along two-way streets, they say.

The Metrolinx board, made up of appointees of the province, will meet Feb. 19. While the city once expected a clear vote on the mode for Hamilton, it's now known the board will receive and discuss the report but not commit to a chosen mode.

But the city will continue to go forward with planning, design and engineering on an LRT option, Stephen said.

A consultant to undertake that work, expected to take about a year, is being chosen now. Metrolinx staff say they will report back to the board in late 2010 with an update.

Kevlahan, spokesperson of Light Rail Hamilton, says that's just more wheel spinning. The report released yesterday has been delayed since last summer.

"Metrolinx is avoiding making real decisions. It's creating a lot of reports," he said. "Metrolinx was supposed to get things built."
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  #1456  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 2:58 PM
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Mayor wary of street conversion

February 13, 2010
Emma Reilly
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/721374

The city needs to convert King and Main streets to two-way traffic to get the most out of rapid transit, according to a Metrolinx report released yesterday.

But Mayor Fred Eisenberger is reluctant to endorse the move -- even though the plans presented yesterday are contingent on traffic running both east and west on Main and King.

Metrolinx, the authority that oversees transportation in the Hamilton and Toronto area, released a report yesterday detailing three options for rapid transit. Each one assumes both Main Street and King Street would be converted to two-way streets with two-way rapid transit running down the median of King.

"(Two-way) conversion is considered a positive move from a city-building perspective that will create a more pedestrian and transit-friendly environment," the report reads.

Eisenberger said it's "premature to talk about those kinds of assumptions at this point" and more traffic studies need to be finished before council makes a decision.

"Clearly there is going to be a need to look at how the transportation flows in our inner city," he said.

"And that has yet to be done in thoroughness."

Rob Prichard, president and CEO of Metrolinx, said it's ultimately up to the city to decide whether to convert its streets to accommodate two-way traffic.

"It's simply an assumption. If the city remained with one-way streets, we would have to change that assumption and adapt our analysis," he said.

Initially, the city expected yesterday's report to include a firm recommendation about whether Hamilton should receive light rail or dedicated bus lanes.

Instead, the report outlined all three options -- buses, light rail or a phased-in light rail system that integrates buses on the route's east end -- without any endorsement.

"Clearly the province is now going to be the agency that we're going to have to work with," Eisenberger said.

For all three options, the report calls for construction to begin in 2011, finish in 2014 and for rapid transit to be up and running by 2015, in time for the Pan Am Games.

That timeline will depend on when the province makes a decision about funding.

While visiting Hamilton last week, Premier Dalton McGuinty said he sees Pan Am and rapid transit as "separate things" and the games won't necessarily influence Hamilton's chances of getting light rail.

The report also notes Hamilton's traffic lights will have to give priority to rapid transit, which could make waits longer on north-south at intersections.

Jill Stephen, director of strategic planning for the city, said city staff will make a presentation to council in April detailing its work over the past year and present options for the future.

"We'll confirm that we're on the right course moving forward with rapid transit," she said.

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What kinds of savings in travel time will rapid transit bring?

It's expected that current bus riders, new transit riders and auto users will all see travel times improve. Metrolinx calculated that in money terms at $13 an hour. For LRT, the total savings is $647 million for a full line and $553 million for a phased line. The savings for bus rapid transit are significantly lower at $269 million.

Will it link to GO?

No. Metrolinx researchers studied the impacts of moving the LRT route so it would connect with the GO station on Hunter Street. The analysis showed slightly higher peak ridership, but an increase in travel time that hurt overall benefits. The report did say a convenient connection to GO will become more important as GO train service to Hamilton improves.
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  #1457  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguy1231 View Post
Intrusive, it is going to essentially close one of the main thoroughfares in the city King St. It is going to cut off access to all side streets for people who want to turn left, as per the plans released by the city. That may not worry you, but it does worry people living and doing business in the areas effected. All 13 kms of the route thats alot of lost access.
FUD

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguy1231 View Post
Controversial, it is going to basically cut the lower city in half. It is going to funnel what was in alot of cases local traffic onto main streets making them even more congested than they already are. It will be Hamiltons version of the iron curtain.
Our lower city is already cut in half by a 5 lane expressway that kills economic development along our major arteries. At least this 'iron curtain' will be an economic catalyst - the opposite of what we have now.
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  #1458  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 4:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguy1231 View Post
You obviously only comprehend things you want to believe.
I spend most of my free time studying cities and observing them first hand. I comprehend alot more than you think. But thanks for the insult anyway.

Quote:
Intrusive, it is going to essentially close one of the main thoroughfares in the city King St.
You've been called on the BS SO MANY TIMES. It's wrong. King Street might be closed to car traffic only for two blocks. Not 'essentially closed.'

Quote:
It is going to cut off access to all side streets for people who want to turn left, as per the plans released by the city. That may not worry you, but it does worry people living and doing business in the areas effected. All 13 kms of the route thats alot of lost access.
How hard is it already to cross five lanes to turn left on a side street? It's not even necessary and won't save more than 30 seconds. That superficial inconvenience will be more than compensated by the fact that with two way streets, cars will be able to turn left OR right from major streets, where most of the traffic is.

Quote:
Controversial, it is going to basically cut the lower city in half. It is going to funnel what was in alot of cases local traffic onto main streets making them even more congested than they already are. It will be Hamiltons version of the iron curtain.
WTF? This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I walk through the core every day and we already have two iron curtains. Five lanes of speeding traffic is the most oppressive thing to anyone who tries to cross the street whether they're in a car or on foot. How easy, or safe, is it to cross side streets now with the wall of cars going 70km/h? Again, most of the traffic is on the main streets that will cross the LRT.

Is St. Clair Ave. in Toronto an 'iron curtain'? Is Spadina an iron curtain? Please. You accuse me of being in an LRT bubble. If that were true, at least it's a bubble of something profoundly successful. I'd rather that than be in a bubble of 1950's thinking that has failed Hamilton and so many other cities.

You still didn't answer my question. What makes Hamilton unique that it won't adapt to or benefit from LRT? Are we scientifically proven to be stupider people on average than other cities? I think Hamiltonians are smarter than you give them credit for.
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  #1459  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 4:07 PM
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But Mayor Fred Eisenberger is reluctant to endorse the move -- even though the plans presented yesterday are contingent on traffic running both east and west on Main and King.
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  #1460  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2010, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Dalton View Post
You accuse me of being in an LRT bubble. If that were true, at least it's a bubble of something profoundly successful. I'd rather that than be in a bubble of 1950's thinking that has failed Hamilton and so many other cities.
Right on.
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