Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

It wasn't exactly a media report like they make it sound, as if it was a fabricated unsubstantiated report

They literally had a representative from Translink on TV actually SAYING that. On camera.

Wasn't it from Transit Police?

[Yume-sama]

Originally Posted by deasine

Wasn't it from Transit Police?

Same deal That doesn't change the fact that a representative actually came on TV and said it.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Same deal That doesn't change the fact that a representative actually came on TV and said it.

Well they are two different organizations. Note that though Transit Police isn't checking tickets, that doesn't stop Transit Security, SkyTrain Attendants, and Canada Line Attendants from enforcing the fare rules.

By the way, Transit Security has been doing a few fare checks, not really just enforcing fares, but also counting the commuters and seeing what type of fare they use. There are six transit security officers, four of which who check fares, then yell out the type of fare, then the other two records on paper.

[Zassk]

122,000 on "Fridays"... not even event days... impressive.

I took the Canada Line downtown last week for a business dinner, and was highly impressed by the ridership. It occurred to me that the Rotem trains have less seats relative to their total capacity than MK 1/2 trains, so it always seems like the Canada Line is "full to standing room", even if the train isn't really that full. This may distort people's impressions a little. It takes a lot of people to fill a Rotem car such that you are competing for standing space.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

It wasn't exactly a media report like they make it sound, as if it was a fabricated unsubstantiated report

They literally had a representative from Translink on TV actually SAYING that. On camera.

They had said that it would not be their main focus. They never said they wouldn't be doing any checks whatsoever.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Zassk

122,000 on "Fridays"... not even event days... impressive.

I took the Canada Line downtown last week for a business dinner, and was highly impressed by the ridership. It occurred to me that the Rotem trains have less seats relative to their total capacity than MK 1/2 trains, so it always seems like the Canada Line is "full to standing room", even if the train isn't really that full. This may distort people's impressions a little. It takes a lot of people to fill a Rotem car such that you are competing for standing space.

One problem I noticed is that people don't spread out in the car well enough, so everyone's practically standing near door ways. Often, the articulation area is relatively empty.

The car itself wasn't exactly well designed either.

[nickinacan]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the daily ridership for the 99B line was? How many "new" riders did the Canada Line actually pick up?

[deasine]

Originally Posted by nname

What about the capacity? Does the 2 lines add up to give 25000 capacity per hour that skytrain can provide?

On a side note, I've found the top bus routes for 2007 from the phase B RTM document:

#    Route    Boardings
==    =====    =========
1     99    44,000
2     20    30,500
3      9    28,500
4     98    27,500
5     41    27,000
6      3    22,000
7     22    21,500
8      8    21,500
9     17    20,500
10     16    19,000
11     25    18,500
12    135    16,500
13    106    15,500
14     49    15,200
15     10    13,800
16     19    13,800
17      7    12,300
18    410    11,000
19      5    10,500
20    130    10,400
21     97    10,200
22    145    10,200
23     15     9,800

Top performing north shore bus come in 24th with 9600, I assume that's 239
Top performing Surrey bus come in 26th with 9000, I assume that's 321
Top Langley bus come in 31st with 6500 passengers a day, would that be the 501 or 502?
Top Maple Ridge bus come in 34th with 6000, it has to be the 701
Top South Delta bus got 3500 passengers a day, and that would be the 601

In total, there are 17 routes that have 5000 to 10000 riders a day.
6 for Vancouver, 4 for Bby/NW/Coq, 2 for north shore, 3 for Surrey, and 1 each for Langley and Maple Ridge

Note, the Broadway corrider already have 72,000+ passengers a day.

Originally Posted by nname

2007 data:



And this is how I read it:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3976323&postcount=1789

Originally Posted by nname

If you don't have these RTM doc saved:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5w1ztwjo1fl
http://www.mediafire.com/?nhngutamnin

And also this table, although the data is pretty old (Spring 2004), but it shows that the average trip on the 99 is just over half of the entire trip length. This tells us that most of the riders on the 99 gets on and off somewhere on Broadway.

Also note that while the Canada Line replaced the 98 B-Line, the ridership also includes suburban express routes, etc.

That being said, I'm sure the Canada Line attracted many many riders, especially airport users. I would estimate in the figure of at least 30 000 people.

[SpongeG]

has anyone seen the great usage of the pillars in richmond? the one with lighted up posters/ads on them? they look good

[deasine]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

has anyone seen the great usage of the pillars in richmond? the one with lighted up posters/ads on them? they look good

It's supposed to be community art... not ads T__T"

[SpongeG]

some of it is art but the ones i saw were posters for the "O" Zone party place

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by nickinacan

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the daily ridership for the 99B line was? How many "new" riders did the Canada Line actually pick up?

I assume you mean the 98 b-line whcih the Canada Line replaced?

[Alex Mackinnon]

I think hes wondering how many more new transfers the 99 gets because of the Canada line being in place rather than the 98?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I think hes wondering how many more new transfers the 99 gets because of the Canada line being in place rather than the 98?

I wonder how much ridership on the 99 B line has gone up because of the Canada Line. Even without taking travel from Richmond into consideration, all the people downtown I know who travel out to UBC now take the Canada Line over to Broadway and take the B line. They say even with waits and crowds its a lot faster than traveling deep into downtown and finding the 4 or 44 (which they used to do).

[lightrail]

According to this news release, Canada Line recorded 122,000 riders last Friday.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/February2010/03/c6673.html

Does this mean we'll break 200,000 on the line at some point in the games?

When Edmonton hosted the 1978 Commonwealth Games, ridership on the new LRT line was 14,000 per day, but the line recorded 68,000 during the opening ceremonies - and this was with 14 LRVs.

[Metro-One]

Wow, 122, 000 with the C-line's current design and rolling stock? That is amazing. Conservatively that number could become over 300,000 a day if frequencies are simply doubled and the c-car is added.

I think the line will do just fine!

[satishreddy]

Given the ridership figures for various bus routes, is there any logical reason for building the Evergreen line before extending the Millenium line west to UBC?
The 97B line doesn't even make the top 20 routes.

Ridership on a transit system depends on density of population and density of jobs. Do the following experiment: take a drive or the bus between Broadway/Commercial station and UBC on Broadway/10th Ave and compare that to a trip between Lougheed Mall and Coquitlam Mall on North Road, Clarke, and Barnet Highway. Look for population density, job density, places people go daily. Other than 2 or 3 patches of buildings along the route in Coquitlam/Port Moody, there is little or no density.

This is an example of a politically motivated decision that wastes money and limits resources for where they are actually needed.

I have seen a prediction of about 25000 per day riding the Evergreen line when it initially opens. The line is about 11km long, which is about 7 miles. Hence, there will be about 3,500 riders per mile. The figure for the Expo/Millenium line is between 8,000 and 9,000. The Canada line is about 20km, which 12.5 miles. Ridership is reported to be close to be 90,000 - 100,000 per day, which is about 7000 - 8000 mile.

I use the riders per mile figure, because it makes easy comparison to figures for other North American systems given in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_light_rail_systems_by_ridership

Even if the Evergreen line hits 35,000 riders per day on opening day, it will still have only 5000 riders per mile.

The Millenium line extension using Skytrain to UBC is about 12km, which is about 7.5 miles. It will easily reach the 8 - 9000 riders per mile per day average for the Expo/Millenium line on opening day given the existing ridership on the 9, 17, 99 buses which run along the route to UBC.

[Metro-One]

Dude, we have been over this before, this exact conversation. While you may be right that the M-line would bring in more riders, you missed the boat by about a decade to sway that decision.

Here are the main points to start:

1) The 97B line should not even be called a B line, it is slow and zig zags all over the place that one can not compare it to the direct link B-line of the 99, which is likely a major factor keeping its number so low, among others.

2) We have just gone through the Cambie street fiasco, maybe we should give the area some breathing room before we propose placing another line under peoples feet along Broadway (it would be political suicide right now and the media would have a field day reprinting all of the C-line problems, shelling out doom and gloom propaganda articles left and right)

3) There is a heavy resistance against such a project down Broadway currently (again, somewhat attributed to the fresh memories of Cambie street) and the Tri-city areas have generally been begging for a skytrain link for decades now. Local public support is an important factor in a project actually seeing the light of day. In fact the tri-cities have even began zoning and building around their anticipated rapid transit line.

Those are all very important things to consider in the system we have. Should the M-line extension be built first, probably, will it, hell no.

So should we — about the Evergreen Line being built, nope. Instead we should learn from it and start encouraging people at UBC and along Broadway to start campaigning as the Tri-cities have.

If you are so concerned about the Evergreen Line being built before the M-line extension, than you should be going door to door along Broadway informing them on the benefits of skytrain and writing to the media as i am currently attempting to do.

Before this project is ever off the ground, the people along the corridor have to be convinced. That is the true job.

[officedweller]

It's enshrined in the Livable Region Strategic Plan - required by law - to shape growth.

Classic debate - build to shape future growth or to serve existing growth?

The Broadway extension of the M-Line is only in the Livable Region Strategic Plan up to either Granville or Arbutus. An amendment to the plan (a revised, updated version is currently being drafted - the "Regional Growth Strategy") requires the unanimous consent of all Metro Vancouver municipalities.

Here's the Rapid Transit System under the Livable Region Strategic Plan (1996, updated 1999)
Arguably, a Guilfdord<-> Newton LRT or rapid bus line should get priority over the UBC Skytrain according to the LRSP.



Proposed Rapid Transit System under draft Regional Growth Strategy:

[satishreddy]

Metro One

I am not against transit. I am not against rapid transit. I am not against skytrain. The point I am trying to make is that if one does a serious analysis of the numbers, the Evergreen line is a waste of money, in my opinion.

In November a report was released on how well Translink spends its money. I can't remember the link. One one the main conclusions was that Translink developed a huge operating deficit because it expanded too quickly into areas with low ridership. This is precisely what the Evergreen line will do. A large amout of money (capital/operating) will be spent that is not warranted based on the ridership.

A political decision was made to appease the people of Coquitlam/Port Moody with Skytrain. I realize that. It doesn't make the decision logical or a good use of money. One implication of this decision is that it will make it harder for the case to be made for rapid transit in regions that really deserve it based on ridership.

Satish Reddy