Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[volguus zildrohar]

Another lamebrained SEPTA solution. Do any other commuter railroads use such fare control systems in the US? Why does SEPTA find it so difficult to do things other agencies execute with ease? This situation was worsened by the removal of the ticket vending machines a few years back.

A few solutions I've always wondered about:

-Why not check tickets as riders exit/enter as opposed to once they're seated? Though it would add time to commutes, the Regional Rail system is not as extensive relatively speaking as other comparable commuetr railroads. This process could be expedited by workers at high volume stations along each line.

-Although this is already done to some extent, designate particular cars or sections of cars for riders to/from a particular block of stations. If you know everyone on the last two cars is a Zone 5, it makes the conductors work a lot simpler. This would require an ad campaign on SEPTA's part but it's surely cheaper than installing unecessary fare infrastructure. Could a lack of equipment be an issue for this?

I don't understand who's getting free rides? I don't know how well known it is that tickets aren't collected between Market East and 30th Street or University City but the number of people who take advantage of that surely cant be so huge.

[jamesinclair]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

Another lamebrained SEPTA solution. Do any other commuter railroads use such fare control systems in the US? Why does SEPTA find it so difficult to do things other agencies execute with ease? This situation was worsened by the removal of the ticket vending machines a few years back.

A few solutions I've always wondered about:

-Why not check tickets as riders exit/enter as opposed to once they're seated? Though it would add time to commutes, the Regional Rail system is not as extensive relatively speaking as other comparable commuetr railroads. This process could be expedited by workers at high volume stations along each line.

-Although this is already done to some extent, designate particular cars or sections of cars for riders to/from a particular block of stations. If you know everyone on the last two cars is a Zone 5, it makes the conductors work a lot simpler. This would require an ad campaign on SEPTA's part but it's surely cheaper than installing unecessary fare infrastructure. Could a lack of equipment be an issue for this?

I don't understand who's getting free rides? I don't know how well known it is that tickets aren't collected between Market East and 30th Street or University City but the number of people who take advantage of that surely cant be so huge.

Youre not thinking this through. All they're proposing is to adapt the same system used EVERYWHERE ELSE in the world. The US is one of the last places on earth to have conductors collecting tickets. Lame-brained is the current system which has existed for over a hundred years.

Many, many times, conductors dont collect tickets, either because the train is too crowded, or theyre understaffed or whatever. Everybody with a ticket can simply ride for free and use it another day.

All they need on the platform is a machine to stamp the date and time. No one needs to collect the ticket, as it's been "used".

[volguus zildrohar]

Now that I didn't know. I've never encountered fare control like that on US commuter rail systems. Why is it such a rarity here?

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

Now that I didn't know. I've never encountered fare control like that on US commuter rail systems. Why is it such a rarity here?

It's used on the River Line (don't tell me you didn't know that).

...the answer to your question? Probably the same reason why SEPTA still uses tokens.

Or is the conductor system used on NJ Transit, Metro-North, MARC, the LIRR, etc., as well?

[Muji]

Discussed earlier before, but it looks pretty final now.

http://planphilly.com/septa-change-regional-rail-designations

SEPTA to change regional rail designations
By Anthony Campisi
For PlanPhilly
February 3, 2010

Get ready to say good bye to the R8 regional rail line and say hello to the Fox Chase and Chestnut Hill West lines.

SEPTA sounds like it’s settling down on a plan to phase out the regional rail numbers in use since the Center City Commuter Connection tunnel was opened in the 1980s.

Starting July 25, lines will be named after their station terminals, Harry Garforth, SEPTA’s manager of rail planning, told a Feb. 2 meeting of the regional rail subcommittee of the Citizen’s Advisory Committee.

The colors associated with each line — the R8, for example, is orange on schedules and on system maps — will also be removed, he said

...

SEPTA hopes the change will eliminate confusion for area visitors and infrequent riders, who sometimes board the wrong train because they don’t understand that each line travels to two different directions.

The authority had been discussing the change for some time. Other ideas batted around by SEPTA officials were to give each line a name, like the New Jersey Transit model, or a letter.

The change also moves SEPTA away from a European-style regional rail model that emphasizes the possibilities of through-service beyond the Center City tunnel and into outlying neighborhoods and suburbs. Schedules made after the change won’t make reference to the other side of the old lines[...]

Personally, I think SEPTA's made a good decision, provided they manage to clearly communicate that most inbound trains do continue past Center City. Yes I know that the potential for through-service was one of the leading reasons the Center City Commuter Tunnel was even built. But the fact of the matter is, hardly anybody truly takes advantage of it, since the odds for anyone's suburb-to-suburb commute being easily done via regional rail is pretty slim. Furthermore, people who do in fact use through-service on one line will probably do so regardless of the name change.

[theWatusi]

What about lines that have different trains with different terminals? Will an inexperienced rider who was told to take the Doyelstown train to North Wales know that the Lansdale train will get him there as well?

I understand the R numbers are being discontinued to avoid confusion about through routing (like the R6 Norristown train doesn't end up on the R6 Cynwyd line after CC), but maybe instead of naming the lines, they should just number them 1-13.

Septa: PM me and I'll tell you where you can mail my $65k consulting fee to.

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

It's used on the River Line (don't tell me you didn't know that).

...the answer to your question? Probably the same reason why SEPTA still uses tokens.

Or is the conductor system used on NJ Transit, Metro-North, MARC, the LIRR, etc., as well?

I've been on The River Line. I know how their fare collection works. It's a commuter line but not part of a linked system like a typical commuter railroad which is why I don't think of it as one.

And every commuter rail system I've ever ridden - LIRR, NJT - uses a similar model as well with conductors with ticket punchers.

[miketoronto]

Can someone explain the regional rail fare collection to me, as I am a bit confused here.

Do they actually have people to are on board the train and collect a ticket from you at each station?
Like they walk up and down the train cars?
Does that not get annoying to passengers?

Are there no ticket collectors at each regional rail station?

[hammersklavier]

You know how Ye Olde Time railroads had conductors?

That's the way it's still done on our Regional Rail system.

And no, it's not irritating to passengers (speaking as a passenger) for the most part, the conductors are the gossip queens of the network so you can get some real dirt from some of them, but they're not the best solution in this day and age as far as operations efficiency goes.

[Muji]

Here's how it is Mike: There are no ticket collectors, turnstiles, or validation machines at regional rail stations. All fare collection takes place on trains once passengers are seated, done by on-board conductors/ticket agents moving through the cabin throughout the trip. Usually, one last round of checking occurs on inbound trains just before they reach Center City. On rare occasions, conductors will collect fares as passengers board, but I have only seen this on outbound trains during weekends.

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

I understand the R numbers are being discontinued to avoid confusion about through routing (like the R6 Norristown train doesn't end up on the R6 Cynwyd line after CC), but maybe instead of naming the lines, they should just number them 1-13.

I agree. Numbers and/or letters are much easier to remember than destination names.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Muji

Here's how it is Mike: There are no ticket collectors, turnstiles, or validation machines at regional rail stations. All fare collection takes place on trains once passengers are seated, done by on-board conductors/ticket agents moving through the cabin throughout the trip. Usually, one last round of checking occurs on inbound trains just before they reach Center City. On rare occasions, conductors will collect fares as passengers board, but I have only seen this on outbound trains during weekends.

Why aren't there ticket machines at every station that sounds a bit retarded

[McBane]

ah SEPTA, my favorite topic of discussion.

RR does not have ticket machines, except maybe at suburban station, 30th st, and market east -

SEPTA instead employs people to sell tickets but not at all stations. ticket agents are rude (as per union regs), lines are long (at the CC stations), and their salary, pension, benefits are a complete waste of money

outside of CC, not every errr, only a handful of stations have ticket agents. their hours are 5am to noon and of course, as per union regs, they take an hour lunch break! not very convenient

once on the train, if you are unable to buy a ticket b/c the station was closed or their is no ticket agent, you must buy your ticket on the train, for which there is a $2 surcharge on top of SEPTA's already sky-high prices ($3.50 for a 1 way off peak 12 min ride from Manayunk to CC???)

SEPTA graciously allows you to take your stub to a ticket window and get your surcharge refunded if there were no ticket windows open so they pay people to collect fares - who make you shell out an extra $2; then you wait in line and have someone else refund you that same $2.

SEPTA - how about you fire half of your overpaid staff, install these things called machines, and cut fares. if you need some help in grasping the concept of a ticket machine, see NJ Transit, Metro North, LIRR, or well every other transit agency in the friggin industrialized world!

[Muji]

The Transport Politic has some interesting things to say about the regional rail name changes. Can't say I'm particularly swayed but I think it's a good read nonetheless. Plus, his maps are just so awesome-looking.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/04/philadelphia-reevaluates-regional-rail-route-structure-dismissing-through-running/

[theWatusi]

Originally Posted by McBane

ah SEPTA, my favorite topic of discussion.

You forgot my favorite Septa employee--the subway booth operator.

Sell tokens? Nope

Give change? Nope

Answer questions without giving a dirty look? Nope

Do anything other then read the Daily News? Nope

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by Muji

The Transport Politic has some interesting things to say about the regional rail name changes. Can't say I'm particularly swayed but I think it's a good read nonetheless. Plus, his maps are just so awesome-looking.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/02/04/philadelphia-reevaluates-regional-rail-route-structure-dismissing-through-running/

Wow! That was some good reading. And all of the links to other articles and maps were good, too. The writer made some good points. Unfortunately, SEPTA does not always make the best decisions and the best ideas are often ignored.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

You know how Ye Olde Time railroads had conductors?

That's the way it's still done on our Regional Rail system.

And no, it's not irritating to passengers (speaking as a passenger) for the most part, the conductors are the gossip queens of the network so you can get some real dirt from some of them, but they're not the best solution in this day and age as far as operations efficiency goes.

We still have them in Chicago, on every line except the Metra Electric. The system seems to work fine... the conductors are professionals, and they're really good at keeping track of passengers - I've ridden Metra hundreds of times, yet I can count on one hand the times when my ticket wasn't punched. Oddly enough, they were all at off-peak times, when cars are sparsely filled and there should be no excuse.

[jamesinclair]

Originally Posted by ardecila

We still have them in Chicago, on every line except the Metra Electric. The system seems to work fine... the conductors are professionals, and they're really good at keeping track of passengers - I've ridden Metra hundreds of times, yet I can count on one hand the times when my ticket wasn't punched. Oddly enough, they were all at off-peak times, when cars are sparsely filled and there should be no excuse.

They may do their job, but it doesnt mean their salary is justified.

It's much cheaper to use a POP system.

If a ticket costs....$7, and the fine is $150 then as long as they catch you once every 20 trips, you lose out.

Of course, most people would not try to evade fares because if you only take one trip, you have the chance of being caught and forced to pay $150 (or whatever they decide)

[McBane]

I agree that the job of conductors are not justified by their salaries - not to mention pensions and all other union benefits. plus, machines don't go on strike. However, and it is unfortunate, the people who are most likely to be cowed by fines for not paying their fares are the people most likely to pay their fares. Philly is full of tax delinquents, PPA delinquents, and plain ol' criminal delinquents! You think those folks care about their credit or fines? At least you can boot a car!

Anyway, here is an interesting article from today's paper: Winging It: Hope accelerating for high-speed rail (though it's more general than Philly-centric).

[McBane]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

You forgot my favorite Septa employee--the subway booth operator.

Sell tokens? Nope

Give change? Nope

Answer questions without giving a dirty look? Nope

Do anything other then read the Daily News? Nope

Well of course! I was just listing the backwardsness of SEPTA's RR. If we were to expand the list to include the backwardness of all of SEPTA's transit modes and operating procedures, I could have gone on all day long...and sure enough those dolts in the subway booths would have been high on my list!