Hamilton Downtown Mosque | ? | ? | Planning

[SteelTown]

$5 million mosque planned for downtown

February 02, 2010
Denise Davy
Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/716584

Hamilton's downtown Muslim community has big plans.

Worshippers at the Hamilton Downtown Mosque want to expand their quarters at 96 Wilson St.

The plan is to grow out of the building in which they have operated more than 30 years and construct a new mosque, an elementary school and housing for new immigrants.

The expanded complex, estimated to cost $5 million, would grow out of the present quarters and occupy a city block bounded by Wilson, Mary, Catherine North and Rebecca.

But the expansion is not a done deal. Part of the necessary property is city owned and another portion owned by the province. Mosque spokesperson Mohamed Khattab says the group has been told that Hamilton police are interested in some of the property as well.

Police have not confirmed that interest to the Spectator.

The city’s public works department is also looking at the land for a water-pumping station.

Bill Farkas, manager of real estate for the city, said they’ve been asked by public works to find another plot of land that would be suitable.

Khattab said the existing mosque can accommodate about 200 people.

“We need a mosque that can take 600 to 700 people,” he said, adding they frequently send the overflow crowd to other mosques.

[FRM]

that plan has been there for a long time now, i hope they don't just demolish the current building they are in now, hopefully it can be integrated nicely with whatever new structures they add.

[realcity]

THAT'S FOR DOWNTOWN? and that's not all .... a Water-pumping station as a bonus.

It looks so suburban... all the wasted space on lawns, a flat roof, it's just missing a parking lot. Or is that a parking lot? It does look like a curb cut on the corner with entrance/exit car lanes. Yep it's a parking lot.

“We need a mosque that can take 600 to 700 people,” So I guess the City told them they needed a parking lot for 300-350 cars.

actually, it looks like a minimum security prison. where are the minarets and towers?

[highwater]

Originally Posted by realcity

It looks so suburban... all the wasted space on lawns, a flat roof, it's just missing a parking lot. Or is that a parking lot? It does look like a curb cut on the corner with entrance/exit car lanes. Yep it's a parking lot.

My thoughts exactly. What a missed opportunity to densify that block, especially since they are planning housing.

Wouldn't it be great if the city demanded changes to the plan that would be more in keeping with its urban neighbourhood. I can dream, can't I?

[emge]

I'm sympathetic to them as a faith group, knowing that usually funding these takes a lot of work and is done on a tiny budget, and this looks like an easy-to-plan box that maximizes what they want to get for $5 million.

That said, I'm all for the city making sure that plans are conforming to their standards and that density is enforced.

I may not be remembering this correctly, but I think I am.

About a year ago, the church I work at renovated an old building on a tiny budget. Tiny. There were a few new sections - one to accommodate the elevator, which was the major budget item. Another new exterior portion was the second story visible to the street. Again, if I remember correctly, I think metal siding was floated as an option for a portion of that. Not large, but a portion visible from the street. The city required stucco instead at the very least so plans had to change.

What we really wanted to put in was brick or stone, but there were a thousand factors to balance, and there were other big considerations. And I for one am glad the city said "you can't do siding" because that meant it at least had to be stucco. It forced the parameters to change.

So yes, it can be difficult when you're trying to manipulate a budget to get everything you need (upgrading knob and tube electrical and antiqued plumbing, plus an elevator, in our case) and making a hundred small cuts along the way. But I'm glad the city forced aesthetics to take an important place and for that one cut not to be made was a good thing in my mind.

I hope the city will do the same for the mosque - and that they will have some regulations about the density. Why are we allowing ANYTHING new built in the downtown that isn't at least 3 stories, covering at least 50% of the land it's built on and with at least half the remainder landscaped?

[realcity]

Churches have historically always been the most inspiring beautiful buildings in a city. Regardless of faith. I guess that hasn't been the case for the last 30-40 years. Too bad.

[SteelTown]

It's big but it's clear and better to see the details

[DHLawrence]

That is quite lovely--and the new section looks like the cloister at a medieval abbey.

Churches are one of the few buildings where a large parking lot has to be forgiven. Not everybody lives in one compact parish with a church/mosque/synagogue/etc. within walking distance; some people have to go long distances to worship. And to be fair, this parking lot isn't THAT big (though it does look ambiguous in the Spec's miniature version).

[realcity]

that looks nice now that i can see it. I take back my prison comment. Although still somewhat suburban. I really dislike lawns. I'd like to see some minaret towers but then again this looks more like a Saudi type Mosque than a Pakistani. I hope it is polished white stone

[realcity]

i wish the streets were labelled. It would be highly unusual (and dangerous) to have curb cuts on a corner.

[matt602]

Not really sure if I'm a fan of the design, in all honesty. As already posted, it seems far too suburban. Then again, it does have some unique features to it.

[SteelTown]

Mosque, police both want same land

February 03, 2010
Denise Davy
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/716981

Hamilton's downtown Muslim community has an ambitious multimillion-dollar plan to expand its quarters to include a new mosque, an elementary school and housing units.

But the project, expected to cost $5 million and take up an entire city block, is on hold because the Hamilton Police Service has expressed an interest in buying part of the needed land.

At issue is land ownership. The city owns part of the property and the province owns another portion. Because of that, government groups get dibs on buying the site.

Mosque spokesperson Mohamed Khattab said the redevelopment plan has been in the works for two years and the mosque only recently learned of the police interest.

The current mosque at 96 Wilson St. is inside an aging building and can accommodate only about 200 people.

Khattab said the Muslim population in Hamilton is growing and an overflow crowd is frequently being sent to other mosques.

The redevelopment project would take up the city block bordered by Wilson, Mary, Catharine and Rebecca streets.

"We need a mosque that can take 600 to 700 people," Khattab said.

The city's public works department was also looking at the land for a water-pumping station, as part of its 10-year plan.

However, Bill Farkas, manager of real estate for the city, said public works has said it is willing to move the station if the city is able to find another plot of suitable land.

Superintendent Mike Shea said the police are interested in the land because it is kitty-corner to the police station and the service is short on space. He said police know nothing about the mosque redevelopment proposal.

"We've been negotiating with the province for about a year and haven't received any notification from anyone," said Shea.

He said members of the mosque will meet with police Chief Glenn De Caire tomorrow and may discuss the land issue.

"It sounds like there's a bit of misinformation about this property. I had no idea they were planning anything on it."

Shea said the police received a letter of notice on Sept. 24 declaring the land was to be sold and asking if they had any interest in it.

"Our response was simply, 'Yes, we do have an interest so don't list it as excess property,' which means they'd have it for sale," said Shea.

Councillor Bob Bratina, who has been helping members of the mosque navigate the process, said the police interest is another "stumbling block" for the group.

"We're trying to rejuvenate the downtown core and this would do that and it would help a burgeoning Muslim community," said Bratina.

Bratina said the issue will be discussed at the next police services board meeting Feb. 16.

Farkas said the process for purchasing the land has not begun yet and that everything that has taken place so far is part of internal discussions.

"They have to wait until it goes on the open market for tender. Once it's cleared, there is a process to move ahead."

Meanwhile, Khattab said the mosque has raised about $500,000 over the last two years and has a $1-million donation confirmed from a Muslim association in Kuwait, subject to a contract being signed.

There are an estimated 20,000 Muslims in Hamilton and at least six mosques, including the Hamilton Mountain Mosque.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by matt602

Not really sure if I'm a fan of the design, in all honesty. As already posted, it seems far too suburban. Then again, it does have some unique features to it.

It could keep the unique features while using the land in a more appropriate way.

[adam]

The stonework will make this building nicer than city hall..

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by matt602

Not really sure if I'm a fan of the design, in all honesty. As already posted, it seems far too suburban. Then again, it does have some unique features to it.

Originally Posted by highwater

It could keep the unique features while using the land in a more appropriate way.

This is a beautiful design, what's wrong with it? What makes this suburban? That fact there is some green space and a few parking spots? This is planned to contain an elementary school and daycare, the green space is needed for children to play on.

Highwater, out of curiosity what do you think would be a more appropriate use of land, just so I can see from your perspective?

[highwater]

This is a city block in the downtown. It should be making much denser use of the land. It is inappropriate to plunk a low-density, suburban design right smack dab in the middle of one of the densest neighbourhoods in the city. They could build to the sidewalk, have low-rise residential, and still have plenty of room for parking and a play area for kids.

This is very short-sighted use of this property. They're building this because they have grown out of their current space. Shouldn't they be planning for continued growth?

[thistleclub]

Between this design, a water-pumping station and a police storage facility, I'd say there's enough lack of vision to go around.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by highwater

This is a city block in the downtown. It should be making much denser use of the land. It is inappropriate to plunk a low-density, suburban design right smack dab in the middle of one of the densest neighbourhoods in the city. They could build to the sidewalk, have low-rise residential, and still have plenty of room for parking and a play area for kids.

This is very short-sighted use of this property. They're building this because they have grown out of their current space. Shouldn't they be planning for continued growth?

With $5 million dollars? If this building was any larger the exterior would be stucco rather than stone and everyone here would be complaining for that reason.

And you say this is one of the densest neighbourhoods in the city, but I think my old suburban 'hood is denser than this. All I see surrounding this area is parking lots... this should be a welcomed addition if anything. Besides, when have you ever seen an elementary school that wasn't surrounded by greenspace?

[SteelTown]

Land cleanup is new hurdle
Property sought by police, mosque faces new environmental standards

February 04, 2010
Denise Davy
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/717303

A downtown mosque and police are both vying for property that may not be suitable for development.

The property, bound by Catharine, Mary, Wilson and Rebecca streets, was once contaminated by oil leakage and would have to pass tough environmental testing standards before anything is built on it.

Both Hamilton Police Service and members of the Hamilton Downtown Mosque are moving forward to purchase the land, although both sides claimed not to know of the other's interest.

The mosque has elaborate multi-million-dollar plans for a large mosque, elementary school and transitional housing for new immigrants on the land and had raised more than $1.5 million over the past two years for the project.

Meanwhile, Hamilton police Superintendent Mike Shea told The Spectator police have been in negotiations with the province for the past year to buy part of the land to solve a space shortage.

In 2002, the province bought the land after it was discovered to be contaminated from oil that leaked onto the soil from a former GO bus garage on the northeast corner of Catharine and Rebecca. The province dug it up and removed thousands of tonnes of the soil.

Jennifer Hall, spokesperson for the Hamilton office of the Ministry of Environment, said the land was cleaned up according to 2003-04 standards.

"Since then, the standards have become tougher, so they would have to do more soil and ground water testing to meet today's standards," said Hall.

Councillor Bob Bratina said members of the mosque have been through a "bureaucratic nightmare" trying to acquire the land.

Although the mosque expressed an interest in the land two years ago, government groups get first dibs at purchasing it since it is public land, one part owned by the city and another by the province.

Mosque spokesperson Mohamed Khattab said the mosque heard the police were once interested but thought they changed their minds.

"We were assured the police were not interested, then, all of a sudden, police are interested again," said Khattab.

Shea told The Spectator the police have a major interest in the land because it is kitty-corner to their downtown station, the perfect location for them.

Bratina says that wasn't his or the mosque's understanding.

"We were all under the impression that the police were not interested," said Bratina, who has been helping mosque members.

Downtown renewal director Ron Marini has been working with members of the mosque for more than a year trying to help them acquire the land.

"When you look at addressing the issue of integration with immigrants, that's exactly what this does," said Marini.

"That's exactly what Hamilton was built on -- centring the community around the church as their cultural ties."

Members of the mosque hope to resolve the issue when they meet with police Chief Glenn De Caire today.

De Caire was out of town yesterday and not available for comment.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by crhayes

With $5 million dollars?

Ah. The old 'beggars can't be choosers' argument for accepting lowest common denominator suburban planning in an urban area. Pardon me for wanting more for my downtown. They are planning housing as a component of this project. Why not partner with a private developer? And in any case, if they have limited resources, shouldn't they be making better use of them by planning now for future growth?

Originally Posted by crhayes

And you say this is one of the densest neighbourhoods in the city, but I think my old suburban 'hood is denser than this. All I see surrounding this area is parking lots...

Density is not determined by whether there is a parking lot next door, but rather by population/area. By that measure, this is one of the densest neighbourhoods in the city.

Originally Posted by crhayes

Besides, when have you ever seen an elementary school that wasn't surrounded by greenspace?

Read my comment again. I said this site could be planned in a way that would be more in keeping with the surrounding community and still have space for a playground and yes, even parking. Inner city schools aren't surrounded by the acres of 'greenspace' (God, I hate that term, but I digress...) like their suburban counterparts. There are planning formulas in place that determine the amount of space required/student, and as long as that is met the little darlings should survive. Also, many inner city schools employ an innovative multi-storey technique whereby several storeys are piled on top of one another to reduce the school's footprint, thus allowing more room for that beloved 'greenspace'.