Salt Lake:Official development news thread - Part 2

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by RTD

Wow. Salt Lake City looks like a very beautiful city. I plan on moving down to Phoenix in the near future, all depending on US immigration, and will definitely have to check out SLC!

One quick question though; perceptions up here in Canada are that Salt Lake City and the State of Utah are essentially politically run (or rather heavily influenced) by the Mormon Church to a great extent. Can anyone shed some light on this matter?

Thanks!

Salt Lake City is a beautiful city! Your perceptions are correct. Since the majority of the Utah State Legislature is Mormon, and the mormon church's opinion is their opinion, the State of Utah is therefore vicariously run by the lds (mormon) church.

Salt Lake City proper, however, is a liberal oasis, sort of the backlash to a very conservative state. You'll find some of the most progressive people in the U.S. living right here in Salt Lake City! Salt lake has exclusively elected only mayors who are liberal/democrat since the 1970's.

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by RTD

Wow. Salt Lake City looks like a very beautiful city. I plan on moving down to Phoenix in the near future, all depending on US immigration, and will definitely have to check out SLC!

One quick question though; perceptions up here in Canada are that Salt Lake City and the State of Utah are essentially politically run (or rather heavily influenced) by the Mormon Church to a great extent. Can anyone shed some light on this matter?

Thanks!

I think the demographics are about 60%-40% for mormon, non-mormon. Though I'd venture many of those who are mormon may not be active in their religion, as happens with all religions. Salt Lake City is quite liberal itself with more conservative suburbs. There's exceptions. The state legislature and senate is heavily republican. It is still America though, and feels overall normal to me.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

I think the demographics are about 60%-40% for mormon, non-mormon. Though I'd venture many of those who are mormon may not be active in their religion, as happens with all religions. Salt Lake City is quite liberal itself with more conservative suburbs. There's exceptions. The state legislature and senate is heavily republican. It is still America though, and feels overall normal to me.

According to the Tribune, in 2009 Utah is 60.4% Mormon. These figures are directly from the LDS church. They report every year to the state their membership numbers so the state can figure out things like where to build schools based on the numbers of "children of record" in the LDS church, etc.

SL Tribune:
Utah 0.0005% more LDS in 2009
Mormon portion of Utah population steadily shrinking

In 2006, the Trib used a GRAMA request (govt records request) to obtain copies of those reports from 1989 to 2004 and show how many Mormons there were in the state between those years.

Based on an analysis by a BYU demographer, however, they figured only 35% of Mormons listed as members are actually active.[1] So, 40% of SLC is Mormon, but only about 14% of the city population would be active Mormons. (Many inactive members still consider themselves to be Mormon and vote and act similarly to other active Mormons, though.)

This PDF shows that in 2004, the LDS population of SL County was only 53.3%.

According to that same PDF, the statewide percentage of Mormons was 62.4% in 2004.

A new Trib article from 12/09 says that the LDS population of Utah actually increased 0.0005% in 2009 over 2008. While small, it's the first time since the late '80s that the LDS population percentage did not decline in Utah. Because of the bad economy, some small number of non-Mormons have moved out of Utah, increasing the LDS percentage slightly.

This article also says that in 2009, the LDS population was 50.3% of SL County.

Most of the legislative representatives from SL County are Democrats, but the rest of the legislators around the state are Republicans and heavily outweigh the SL County Democrats (also some of the Democrats are LDS). Because of the overwhelming number of LDS legislators and Mormon propensity to follow their leaders, the LDS church has an outsized influence in Utah politics. Having lived in several cities around the USA, there's nothing about the Utah legislature that feels normal to me.

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by Stenar

...A new Trib article from 12/09 says that the LDS population of Utah actually increased 0.0005% in 2009 over 2008. While small, it's the first time since the late '80s that the LDS population percentage did not decline in Utah. Because of the bad economy, some small number of non-Mormons have moved out of Utah, increasing the LDS percentage slightly...

I'd think that many mormons would actually move back to Utah durring a recession because of the relatively low cost of living here.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

I'd think that many mormons would actually move back to Utah durring a recession because of the relatively low cost of living here.

Utah housing prices, while they have gone done with the recession, are not affordable for the wages in Utah. So, overall Utah is not really very affordable.

[RTD]

Very interesting. Here in Manitoba, two smaller cities, Winkler and Steinbach, were governed heavily under Mennonite influence. At one time, there was no alcohol, no parties with loud music, and no dancing permitted within the city limits. Now, with increased immigration from other countries around the world, this has changed the face of these fast-growing cities. The regulations of no loud music and dancing have been removed, and now recent referendums have have granted permission to allow the sale of alcohol in restaurants and lounges in both cities. The next step will be to allowed licensed liquor stores within city limit.

As the faces of these cities change, I suspect Salt Lake City will (or rather is) going down this same path. The CJCLS will have less of an influence on the city and the State as the years go by. With more immigrants coming to SLC and Utah and having an influence on society, the demand for more liberal regulations will weigh on political leaders ultimately forcing them to adapt with the times and the people.

Thanks for the info, and I look forward to visiting your city and state very soon!

[TonyAnderson]

The state feels pretty normal to me. Every place in America has its differences, but overall it seems most people here live, work, and play.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by RTD

Very interesting. Here in Manitoba, two smaller cities, Winkler and Steinbach, were governed heavily under Mennonite influence. At one time, there was no alcohol, no parties with loud music, and no dancing permitted within the city limits. Now, with increased immigration from other countries around the world, this has changed the face of these fast-growing cities. The regulations of no loud music and dancing have been removed, and now recent referendums have have granted permission to allow the sale of alcohol in restaurants and lounges in both cities. The next step will be to allowed licensed liquor stores within city limit.

As the faces of these cities change, I suspect Salt Lake City will (or rather is) going down this same path. The CJCLS will have less of an influence on the city and the State as the years go by. With more immigrants coming to SLC and Utah and having an influence on society, the demand for more liberal regulations will weigh on political leaders ultimately forcing them to adapt with the times and the people.

Thanks for the info, and I look forward to visiting your city and state very soon!

That would however be a bit amusing to those who understand the real Salt Lake City. Next to New York, Salt Lake would be the capital city of song and dance in America. Salt Lake City, whether Mormon or whatever has always been under a strong influence of the performing arts of all varieties, and is even more so now. One only need look at the many world caliber groups who make their home in SLC, or even at the rosters of hit TV shows like Dancing With The Stars, or So You Think You Can Dance, etc. These shows and others are heavily peppered with Metro natives.

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by RTD

Very interesting. Here in Manitoba, two smaller cities, Winkler and Steinbach, were governed heavily under Mennonite influence. At one time, there was no alcohol, no parties with loud music, and no dancing permitted within the city limits. Now, with increased immigration from other countries around the world, this has changed the face of these fast-growing cities. The regulations of no loud music and dancing have been removed, and now recent referendums have have granted permission to allow the sale of alcohol in restaurants and lounges in both cities. The next step will be to allowed licensed liquor stores within city limit.

If that's the type of thought you guys had on SLC or Utah in general, then I'd say that's far too extreme. It's somewhat conservative for American standards, but nothing like that. For instance, Provo Utah, considered one of the more conservative areas of Utah (and America) and especially known for very high LDS percentages, has a few bars downtown alone, as well as a former strip-club, which is now closed. Many restaurants serve alcohol, and there's numerous licensed liquor stores. Dancing and loud music fill the downtown there on the weekends.

[RTD]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

If that's the type of thought you guys had on SLC or Utah in general, then I'd say that's far too extreme.

I would say that this is the typical perspective of Utah and SLC that many of us outsiders have on your home. That is why I took the opportunity to ask some of you locals what the deal is with the Mormon Church in your state. Polygamy also comes to mind when many think of Utah, but we also have our issues with polygamy in Canada, specifically in British Columbia. I happen to have went to school with a guy who's uncle lives on a Polygamy colony in Bountiful, British Columbia.

I'm glad that some of you took the time to inform me about the CJCLDS. It did help alleviate some of my own misconceptions.

Cheers

[anyiliang]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Utah housing prices, while they have gone done with the recession, are not affordable for the wages in Utah. So, overall Utah is not really very affordable.

This is one reason why I decided to move to Dallas instead of SLC. I can get a 4000 sqf home for just above 300k where in SLC it would be almost 1 million. Plus salary's in Dallas are higher and taxes are lower then SLC.

I would prefer to live in SLC because there is no place like it and I really miss the outdoors. But again, it all comes down to the cost of living and salary for me.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

I think the demographics are about 60%-40% for mormon, non-mormon. Though I'd venture many of those who are mormon may not be active in their religion, as happens with all religions. Salt Lake City is quite liberal itself with more conservative suburbs. There's exceptions. The state legislature and senate is heavily republican. It is still America though, and feels overall normal to me.

Oh, I thought you were saying the state legislature seemed normal, not Utah in general. Yes, I would agree with you. Utah is actually sort of progressive.

Mormons, in general, are less conservative than Baptists and many other Christian groups, although, it seems like Mormons have taken a hard turn to the right over the past decade. Or maybe the Mormons I grew up with were just much more Democratic-leaning and less right-wing than other Mormons. I grew up in a predominantly Mormon area where our state representative was always a Democrat, for example.

When I lived in NYC, I would always get people who thought I grew up in some sort of Amish community. Like when I first went to the Limelight (dance club) in NYC, they were like "This place is going to blow your mind. It's so crazy." After we were inside, I was like "Uhhh... I've seen crazier things at the Vortex in SLC."

[H4vok]

All I had was my 10-20mm so I couldn't stitch these two together without it looking funky.

[delts145]

My experience in L.A. has been that various other Christian denominations are far more extreme/conservative in their social interaction than the typical L.A. Mormons that I encounter.

This below kind of surprises me. I still can't imagine the conservative far right faction of the Republican Party allowing the Republican Convention to be held in Salt Lake. However, to arrive as far as being one of the four finalists is a big surprise.

Salt Lake City a finalist for 2012 Republican National Convention

2012 Republican convention city to be picked in late summer

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700005946/SLC-may-host-GOP-convention.html

SALT LAKE CITY — The next Republican presidential nominee could be named in Utah.

After four months of study, the GOP has selected Salt Lake City as one of four finalists for the 2012 Republican National Convention, an event that could bring 30,000 people to the state for several days.
.

[RFPCME]

Originally Posted by anyiliang

This is one reason why I decided to move to Dallas instead of SLC. I can get a 4000 sqf home for just above 300k where in SLC it would be almost 1 million. Plus salary's in Dallas are higher and taxes are lower then SLC.

I would prefer to live in SLC because there is no place like it and I really miss the outdoors. But again, it all comes down to the cost of living and salary for me.

Anyiliang: I moved to Georgia from Utah, after nearly 50 years, for the same reasons, plus one. Cost of living, income potential (I am a small business owner), PLUS a more diversified environment.

Taxes here are about a push with Utah. I don't notice much difference. However, just about everything else is cheaper (with the exception of power), especially real estate.

My business has grown substantially since I re-located to GA. But that's understandable because I am so much closer to major population centers (nothing like seeing the customer in person!). And, although the Mtn. West was the fastest growing area of the country in the last decade (by percentage), GA added more people than the entire population of Utah in the last 10 years. Plus our population is much more spread out than in Utah, so I enjoy less congestion than along the Wasatch Front. I also like the climate in the Southeast (I play a lot more golf than I ski these days).

Finally, although I live in rural GA, the heart of the Bible belt, where the cotton is tall and the gators are fast, I love the diversity of skin color and politics. America was built on these diversities. The environment has re-invigorated my faith in the American dream.

Sorry for being so personal in this post.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by H4vok

All I had was my 10-20mm so I couldn't stitch these two together without it looking funky.

I really like looking towards the south end of the skyline at night with the Wells Fargo, Chase, Walker and now 222 Main towers all lit up.
But has anyone notice that the Wells Fargo Building isn't as lit with all it's blue lights as it used to be.

[East2Westback]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I wasn't arguing, I was just simply wanting to know the attendance statistics for those areas. Just to do a rough msa/cmsa comparison.

However if you look at other sports and their attendance, many much larger cities have much less attendance then RSL. These are average attendance numbers. Yet Houston, DC, Chicago, Columbus, Colorado, New York, New England, Kansas City and Dallas, all have the aforementioned much greater population to draw upon. In comparison by TV markets SLC is the smallest of all the MLS cities, but we sit at #4 in attendance.

1 Seattle Sounders FC 31,203
2 Los Angeles 20,827
3 Toronto FC 20,344
4 Real Salt Lake 17,831
5 Houston 17,624
6 Chivas USA 15,725
7 DC United 15,585
8 Chicago 15,487
9 Columbus 14,175
10 Colorado 13,018
11 New York Red Bulls 12,744
12 New England 12,427
13 San Jose 10,329
14 Kansas City 10,053
15 FC Dallas 9,883

Yes I realize that these numbers are for soccer and many of the cities have many more options for sports entertainment, I am simply pointing out that it can't simply be based on population, but must take into account the passion for sports within that population and the history of support from that population.

Lets take the Jazz as an example. Again I'm not necessarily trying to argue I'm just showing that it doesn't strictly depend on population. Of 30 markets, the Jazz tv market is # 27, with Memphis, OKC, and New Orleans being the smallest three and Milwaukee just above the Jazz at 26. Yet we are # 6 in attendance. Teams in red are the top 5 markets

1 Pistons 21,877
2 Bulls 21,197
3 Trail Blazers 20,524
4 Mavericks 20,042
5 Cavaliers 20,010
6 Jazz 19,903
7 NY Knicks 19,287
8 Lakers 18,997
9 Warriors 18,942
10 Raptors 18,773
11 Thunder 18,693
12 Celtics 18,624
13 Suns 18,422
14 Spurs 18,269
15 Heat 18,229
16 Rockets 17,482
17 Nuggets 17,223
18 Magic 17,043
19 Hornets 16,968
20 Hawks 16,748
21 Wizards 16,612
22 Clippers 16,170
23 76ers 15,802
24 Bucks 15,389
25 Nets 15,147
26 Bobcats 14,526
27 Timberwolves 14,505
28 Pacers 14,182
29 Grizzlies 12,745
30 Kings 12,571

No one can argue the Jazz. A true power team in a very urban sport. That was Larry Miller. Every great team has one person who does not give a s-it about anything except for team success. That kind of person always is looking out for his city. Steinbrenner did that for NY and to me Larry seemed like he was the same.

[TANGELD_SLC]

Originally Posted by RTD

I would say that this is the typical perspective of Utah and SLC that many of us outsiders have on your home. That is why I took the opportunity to ask some of you locals what the deal is with the Mormon Church in your state. Polygamy also comes to mind when many think of Utah, but we also have our issues with polygamy in Canada, specifically in British Columbia. I happen to have went to school with a guy who's uncle lives on a Polygamy colony in Bountiful, British Columbia.

I'm glad that some of you took the time to inform me about the CJCLDS. It did help alleviate some of my own misconceptions.

Cheers

Well there ARE polygamists(fundamentalist Mormons, to be precise) living in Salt Lake City, but we keep a low key & are generally as mainstream as anyone, arguably moreso than members of the LDS Church(most of us drink coffee and alcohol, for example). However most "polygamists" live in the suburbs of Salt Lake City. In my experience, we're not viewed as a problem by the general populace, since we generate billions of dollars as business owners and even, yes, politicians. It's definitely a very unique aspect of the SLC metro, but not one that detracts from it in any way. If anything, it keeps things interesting. SLC could be considered the "Alternative Lifestyle Capital Of America", with the large gay and polygamous communities located here that you won't find anywhere else. In reality, we're a more progressive region than we get credit for.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by TANGELD_SLC

Well there ARE polygamists(fundamentalist Mormons, to be precise) living in Salt Lake City, but we keep a low key & are generally as mainstream as anyone, arguably moreso than members of the LDS Church(most of us drink coffee and alcohol, for example). However most "polygamists" live in the suburbs of Salt Lake City. In my experience, we're not viewed as a problem by the general populace, since we generate billions of dollars as business owners and even, yes, politicians. It's definitely a very unique aspect of the SLC metro, but not one that detracts from it in any way. If anything, it keeps things interesting. SLC could be considered the "Alternative Lifestyle Capital Of America", with the large gay and polygamous communities located here that you won't find anywhere else. In reality, we're a more progressive region than we get credit for.

On my block in Sugar House, there's one polygamist house, 2 lesbians across the street, me (part of a gay couple) and my neighbor who was in a lesbian relationship for several years, but now has a boyfriend for the past 2 years and a Mormon church across the street.

[TANGELD_SLC]

Now THAT'S what I call diversity