Salt Lake:Official development news thread - Part 2

[Future Mayor]

I wasn't arguing, I was just simply wanting to know the attendance statistics for those areas. Just to do a rough msa/cmsa comparison.

However if you look at other sports and their attendance, many much larger cities have much less attendance then RSL. These are average attendance numbers. Yet Houston, DC, Chicago, Columbus, Colorado, New York, New England, Kansas City and Dallas, all have the aforementioned much greater population to draw upon. In comparison by TV markets SLC is the smallest of all the MLS cities, but we sit at #4 in attendance.

1 Seattle Sounders FC 31,203
2 Los Angeles 20,827
3 Toronto FC 20,344
4 Real Salt Lake 17,831
5 Houston 17,624
6 Chivas USA 15,725
7 DC United 15,585
8 Chicago 15,487
9 Columbus 14,175
10 Colorado 13,018
11 New York Red Bulls 12,744
12 New England 12,427
13 San Jose 10,329
14 Kansas City 10,053
15 FC Dallas 9,883

Yes I realize that these numbers are for soccer and many of the cities have many more options for sports entertainment, I am simply pointing out that it can't simply be based on population, but must take into account the passion for sports within that population and the history of support from that population.

Lets take the Jazz as an example. Again I'm not necessarily trying to argue I'm just showing that it doesn't strictly depend on population. Of 30 markets, the Jazz tv market is # 27, with Memphis, OKC, and New Orleans being the smallest three and Milwaukee just above the Jazz at 26. Yet we are # 6 in attendance. Teams in red are the top 5 markets

1 Pistons 21,877
2 Bulls 21,197
3 Trail Blazers 20,524
4 Mavericks 20,042
5 Cavaliers 20,010
6 Jazz 19,903
7 NY Knicks 19,287
8 Lakers 18,997
9 Warriors 18,942
10 Raptors 18,773
11 Thunder 18,693
12 Celtics 18,624
13 Suns 18,422
14 Spurs 18,269
15 Heat 18,229
16 Rockets 17,482
17 Nuggets 17,223
18 Magic 17,043
19 Hornets 16,968
20 Hawks 16,748
21 Wizards 16,612
22 Clippers 16,170
23 76ers 15,802
24 Bucks 15,389
25 Nets 15,147
26 Bobcats 14,526
27 Timberwolves 14,505
28 Pacers 14,182
29 Grizzlies 12,745
30 Kings 12,571

[TonyAnderson]

Attendance numbers aren't always a true reflection, because many times the teams with the worst attendance are teams playing badly that year. Some areas are just known more as sports areas. I think Utah and the Wasatch Front is one of them, if you consider things like consistently being ranked as one of the healthiest cities, great support for current teams including University level, and hosting the Olympic events / being known for winter sports.

Maybe there's still not enough population but you'd have to also consider all the metro areas in Utah are in the list of fastest growing in America. I say once FrontRunner South is completed in 2012, the SLC downtown area will be a great place for a future major league sports expansion / relocation.

[delts145]

I look forward to the day when Salt Lake has both an MLB and NFL organization. I certainly don't think we're fifty years away from it. It's much closer than that. Also, I don't think that attendance is the major consideration at this point. As pointed out, even when Real was struggleing, attendance was much better than many markets with a larger base. The same has held true for the Jazz over the years. However, there are two other major ingredients that must be accomplished at this time. First, our overall media market is not yet at the point where we can generate the capital to sustain the major investment that an MLB or NFL team demands in these modern times. When the SLC market of Utah, Eastern Nevada,Southeastern Idaho and Southwestern Wyoming have reached a certain critical population media draw, then we will have our big league teams. The other key ingredient is of course either a major daddy warbucks or a cartel of very wealthy investors. Say for example, Jon Huntsman and Mitt Romney get together and organize a group of investors to back the venture. Perhaps, in the future we'll see Dave Checketts put together a group of backers. When the Intermountain region has a couple more million people sitting in front of their televisions for a game and paying the cable revenue to watch, we'll see home town boys like Checketts, Marriott, Huntsman, or Romney putting together a group of backers, and we'll get more major league teams.

[Future Mayor]

You make a good point delts. I will point out that while there are no tv markets smaller than SLC there are 5 media markets smaller than SLC with NFL teams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_sports_teams_in_the_United_States_by_city

[delts145]

I understand, but am I correct in assuming that the CSA is not the only consideration. For example several MSAs and CSAs are smaller than the Wasatch, but their overall state and or region has a population many times that of the Intermountain West? As Rick pointed out, a team will often draw from more than just it's so called immediate market, and often overlap into another major population base. Teams in markets such as St. Louis, Kansas City, New Orleans are grabbing a large media market, that are far from their approximate metro's and include regions with many millions of loyal followers that the Wasatch just doesn't have.

[TonyAnderson]

As future mayor, Future Mayor, I expect one of your first lines of agenda to be ensuring a football, mlb, and/or nhl team

[esirhgih]

Part of the problem with comparing MLB attendance to NBA/MLS is the number of games they play. The NBA plays 82 games in a regular season, or 41 home games. In the MLB, there are 162 games in a regular season, making 81 home games a season. To sell out the Delta Center Energy Solutions Arena for each home game, they would need to sell 815,900 tickets (41 games x 19,900 seats).

To sell out even the smallest MLB park (Fenway) you would need to sell 3,029,400 tickets a season (37,400 seats x 81 games).

That's one reason that smaller cities can support NBA teams, but not MLB or NFL teams. I'd love to see an MLB baseball team in Utah, but I think its a long way off.

[urbanboy]

Natural History Museum Update:

[SandSailor]

One thing to keep in mind is at this moment and for the foreseeable future, NO LEAGUE (other than MLS maybe) is planning on expanding! There are rumors of a few NFL teams relocating (possibly LA with its new stadium). I truly do not see SLC getting a new Pro team in the next 20 years.

[delts145]

That's a definite possibility SandSailor, but it's also just as, if not more possible that teams/cities will fail their franchise and they will be relocated. This has happened often before, and a burgeoning metro like the Wasatch, with an excellent fan base and an aggressive cartel with the financial backing, could very possibly bring a team to the Wasatch. I think my disagreement would be the statement that it won't happen in the next fifty years. Twenty years is a lot more likely to me. I think we'll just have to see where our growth goes in the Intermountain West, and if a group of Larry Miller or Dave Checketts types will step in with the necessary aggressiveness and financial backing.

[delts145]

Salt Lake City businesses putting heads together

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700005555/Salt-Lake-City-businesses-putting-heads-together.html

...From dealing with far-reaching issues to cleaning up the city's storefronts, collaboration and forward thinking were the topic of conversation for a packed house at the Salt Lake City Neighborhood Business Conference on Thursday...

...Dralle also stressed the need for walkability in their neighborhoods.

That's something Annalisa Steggell, director of community relations for Westminster College, knows a good deal about.

"It's really important to us that we have a really vibrant, really interesting, really cool area because that's what we need to attract our students," said Steggell, whose college uses walking tours to show off the proximity to businesses...

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[cololi]

This is why I say it will be at least 50 years:
1. The total personal income in SLC and it's suburbs is about 40 billion dollars (ranks 51st in the nation, just behind Buffalo, and behind LA, Portland, Sacramento, San Jose, San Bernadino, etc). That is pretty low for a city to support more than one major leage sport (I'm talking the big three: NFL, MLB, NBA). I bet there are at least a dozen cities ranked higher than SLC that either don't have a team or have one team. This would immediately put those cities ahead of a group looking to relocate a team for financial reasons.

2. Ticket prices. This is directly related to above. The Jazz may sell a lot of tickets, but they also have some of the lowest ticket prices. Their gate receipts are lower than many teams because they can't out price their market. NFL teams have to have very high ticket prices because they play 8 regulat season home games. Even with revenue sharing, home games are where teams make a huge percentage of their incomes.

3. Facilities. Very few franchises would be willing to fund their own stadium. Football and baseball stadiums are expensive. Public investment is almost a requirement these days. No city in this state could afford to bond for a stadium until other bonds expire. Some of these bonds have 20 years left on them. this would also assume that no city is going to bond for anyting else in the future to save bond space for a stadium. I do not believe the state legislature would be willing to fund what it takes to build a stadium these days. Plus there are far better projects that would benefit the community than a stadium (expanded transit, improved roads, expanded arts facilities, better funded schools, on and on)

4. Corporate sponsors: this is the life blood of professional sports. We have very few that can afford to pay several hundred thousand dollars for VIP rooms and suites at stadiums. Baseball and football stadiums have far more of these than NBA teams. The Jazz struggle to fill theirs and have had some that the sell on a game by game basis.

5. Expansion: None of the big three are considering expansion. This obviously changes over time, but many of the leagues are at a saturation point, at least according to existing owners within those leagues. In fact, in 2002 MLB strongly considered contraction. That leaves relocation as the likely option. SLC is not as an attractive market as some others that have more total personal income, more available bonding space, and more corproate sponsorships.

Of course, no one knows what will happen over the next 20 years, and things change. SLC is growing, the wasatch front is growing, energy development has the potential to grow exponentially in Utah, and more large business will move in as the region grows. But, in order to surpass some other attractive communities, it will take 20-30 years and then other things have to happen at the right time for a team to move here. That right time may not be for 20-30 years after we as a community have the total personal income to be more attractive for relocating a sports franchise.

[Orlando]

Thanks for the update on the museum, UB.

[urbanboy]

welcome

[Stenar]

LDS Church buys KJZZ building

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700005777/LDS-Church-buys-KJZZ-building.html

[SLC Projects]

"The purchase price was not disclosed".......It never is.

[jedikermit]

Yeah, thanks for the update on the Natural History Museum, UB--was just thinking about that the other day.

Originally Posted by Stenar

LDS Church buys KJZZ building

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700005777/LDS-Church-buys-KJZZ-building.html

Stenar, that link didn't go anywhere for me--is the KJZZ building downtown?

[delts145]

^^^
Here's the link on that story Jedi.

LDS Church buys KJZZ building

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700005845/LDS-Church-buys-KJZZ-building.html

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[jedikermit]

Thanks Delts!

Looks like it's not downtown, but out by the airport.

[RTD]

Wow. Salt Lake City looks like a very beautiful city. I plan on moving down to Phoenix in the near future, all depending on US immigration, and will definitely have to check out SLC!

One quick question though; perceptions up here in Canada are that Salt Lake City and the State of Utah are essentially politically run (or rather heavily influenced) by the Mormon Church to a great extent. Can anyone shed some light on this matter?

Thanks!