Provo MSA Development Thread

[poodledoodledude]

something else i was thinking, and i hate to bring RELIGION in to this....(i know...i know...) but is mormonism really GROWING in that part of the county, or are mormons just "moving around" so it appears that there is a LOT of growth?? i'm asking because, if they DO plan on building more of their buildings around the counties they are in...how does that affect development? have they ever "closed" a temple for those areas that don't have many members?? i know they have closed "church buildings" -- especially in salt lake (avenues) because of lack of members in the area.

i think this is a fair question to ask--and one that needs to be studied from a development standpoint. when the catholic church closed down their church on 500 west--and it ended up being torn down-- the developments in the area seemed to REALLY struggle...and NOW, they have nothing but a hole in the ground! ...so sad...

anyway, i guess my point is this: how do places of worship affect development in your opinion?? do they help for awhile...then, when (or if) they leave, do the developments that WERE there, go downhill? and, if so...how do cities cope with that?

i know that dallas, TX is having a HUGE mega-style church built in their downtown...and some owners of taverns are worried because most of the church goers don't get into that...and the business owners are worried about how the church will affect their business.

i know with downtown salt lake, the new condos they are building that overlooks the temple--for 700,000 to 2 million dollars-- will have lots and LOTS or RICH mormons living in the area...fine, but HOW does that affect development?

just some thoughts...

poodledoodledude

[Future Mayor]

The temple will sit in an area that is in a pending annexation, the property owner simply needs to sign the annexation agreement. The area in the annexation is anticipated to be a regional retail destination with a variety of housing options available within the annexed area as well. An extensive trails system is planned to continue through the newly annexed area that will run near the new temple.

I am pushing a new mixed use zoning through Planning Commission tomorrow night, to allow for a better uses in this and other areas of the city. There is an approved residential development directly north of the temple parcel that has smaller lots than a "typical" suburban neighborhood and I am pushing to amend the General plan to allow for small "neighborhood commercial" in many more areas of the city.

The anticipated expansion of retail at the Payson 800 S interchange as mentioned will include a mix of housing styles, including apartments, condos, two family dwellings, town homes along with some detached single family dwellings, it is not anticipated to have anything larger than 1/4 acre lots in the vicinity. Yes I understand that 1/4 acre lots are often times considered the epitome of sprawl.

The end of the Front Runner line is approximately a mile and a half away from the temple site, (by road). We will be encouraging UTA to extend service into this area of retail and residential, to better serve the needs of those residents and to access Front Runner more efficiently. I realize that the front runner stop is not with the standard "walking distance" for transit, but with the addition of bus service to this area it can be more viable.

Apparently the LDS church was looking at several potential parcels in and around the Payson and Santiquin area. Of the two parcels in Payson city, the chosen parcel is much more accessible to the current residents, more centrally located, and much closer to future transit access. Had a site been selected in Santiquin, there is not current or future plans for transit at this time. The other Payson parcel was not on the edge of current residential development, it was hill side property and would have most likely the been developed into 1/4 - 1 acre lots, with access from only one direction. With the chosen location we can continue to trend of smaller lot sizes and it is a much more ideal place for multi family housing and mixed use development, and can be accessed from many directions.

Yes I understand that 1/4 acre lots are considered sprawl, however there is a fine line that must be walked when actually working for a municipality. There is the IDEAL that we would like to see and then there is the political realities of elected officials and citizens. I as a planner attempt to plan for 20-30 years down the road "planning time" while politician look at a 4 year window "political time" So my goal as a planner is to implement and accomplish as many responsible things as possible through education and proper planning. With the addition of mixed use zoning, the expansion of the Payson trail system and pushing for the addition of different housing options I doing what is in my power to promote more walkable neighborhoods and more responsible land uses.

As I mentioned there is currently no mixed use zoning, other than the TOD zone, located around the FrontRunner stop. There is also no TDR ordinance in the city and I will be presenting that option to council and planning commission in March. I am a city boy at heart and always will be, it is not my goal to transform Payson into a thriving metropolis, and i realize that it has aspects such as orchards and other agricultural land that make it appealing to a certain portion of the population. My goal is to plan for the growth of Payson, in a way that will allow for population and retail (tax base) growth, while preserving as much open space and agricultural land as possible.

[Future Mayor]

That very well may be my longest post ever, and I even cut it short.

[urbanboy]

There's always a first for everything. I think some temples will eventually close, which is fine, they'd just become our "castles" and provide tourists with more options. Like an Arctic Circle becoming a Papa Johns, some lds chapels have even been sold to other denominations, I don't see why the same couldn't happen to an lds temple.

[TonyAnderson]

poodle, you said tony anderson (me I assume). It's FutureMayor who works in that area, not me.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

poodle, you said tony anderson (me I assume). It's FutureMayor who works in that area, not me.

I didn't even realize he had addressed it to you (obviously, since I answered it) der FM

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by poodledoodledude

something else i was thinking, and i hate to bring RELIGION in to this....(i know...i know...) but is mormonism really GROWING in that part of the county, or are mormons just "moving around" so it appears that there is a LOT of growth?? i'm asking because, if they DO plan on building more of their buildings around the counties they are in...how does that affect development? have they ever "closed" a temple for those areas that don't have many members?? i know they have closed "church buildings" -- especially in salt lake (avenues) because of lack of members in the area.

i think this is a fair question to ask--and one that needs to be studied from a development standpoint. when the catholic church closed down their church on 500 west--and it ended up being torn down-- the developments in the area seemed to REALLY struggle...and NOW, they have nothing but a hole in the ground! ...so sad...

anyway, i guess my point is this: how do places of worship affect development in your opinion?? do they help for awhile...then, when (or if) they leave, do the developments that WERE there, go downhill? and, if so...how do cities cope with that?

i know that dallas, TX is having a HUGE mega-style church built in their downtown...and some owners of taverns are worried because most of the church goers don't get into that...and the business owners are worried about how the church will affect their business.

i know with downtown salt lake, the new condos they are building that overlooks the temple--for 700,000 to 2 million dollars-- will have lots and LOTS or RICH mormons living in the area...fine, but HOW does that affect development?

just some thoughts...

poodledoodledude

A temple has never been closed before.Typically they're built when capacity in other temples which are used by the nearby residents is full. For example, the Provo temple was at full capacity, and that was the temple used by the southern Utah County LDS members. So actually, this temple will decrease miles traveled, opposed to what UB said, because those in S. Utah County won't be driving to Provo anymore to use that temple.

I suppose it could contribute to sprawl, just like having any development in a non-major city could, because it gives more incentives for people to live there. But at the same time, the area was already growing steadily and quickly before there was a temple.

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I didn't even realize he had addressed it to you (obviously, since I answered it) der FM

I'm positive he meant you though. But I had to read over the post a few times

I thought perhaps you thought Logan was in S. Utah County at first poodle

[poodledoodledude]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

I'm positive he meant you though. But I had to read over the post a few times

I thought perhaps you thought Logan was in S. Utah County at first poodle

gosh you two-- it looks like i got you confused!
yeah, i TOTALLY meant future mayor! i just realized at the time i was writing, that i hadn't heard from him in awhile and just put in tony anderson...

DOH!!

thanks for the response, though, futuremayor on what is going on down there!
tony, yeah...payson IS A LONG WAY from logan!

poodledoodledude

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by poodledoodledude

gosh you two-- it looks like i got you confused!
yeah, i TOTALLY meant future mayor! i just realized at the time i was writing, that i hadn't heard from him in awhile and just put in tony anderson...

DOH!!

thanks for the response, though, futuremayor on what is going on down there!
tony, yeah...payson IS A LONG WAY from logan!

poodledoodledude

So you got me confused with a future mayor eh? I see my campaign forming already.

[goldcntry]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

A temple has never been closed before.Typically they're built when capacity in other temples which are used by the nearby residents is full. For example, the Provo temple was at full capacity, and that was the temple used by the southern Utah County LDS members. So actually, this temple will decrease miles traveled, opposed to what UB said, because those in S. Utah County won't be driving to Provo anymore to use that temple.

I second this statement. It also holds true for many of the other temples in Utah and Salt Lake counties. In Salt Lake County, even with the addition of the Oquir (sp) Mountain Temple, the Jordan River Temple is at full capacity and the Draper Temple is projected to max capacity in another year or so. The whole idea behind building the smaller temples is to reduce travel times and miles driven. Shockers! The LDS Church is trying to reduce traffic on the roads! Who'da thunk?

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by goldcntry

I second this statement. It also holds true for many of the other temples in Utah and Salt Lake counties. In Salt Lake County, even with the addition of the Oquir (sp) Mountain Temple, the Jordan River Temple is at full capacity and the Draper Temple is projected to max capacity in another year or so. The whole idea behind building the smaller temples is to reduce travel times and miles driven. Shockers! The LDS Church is trying to reduce traffic on the roads! Who'da thunk?

Well I could think of many other ways the lds church could try to reduce traffic on the roads... locate their temple near a mass transit station so one does not need a car to get there... or have them teach their members about living sustainably and responsibly... just say god said: "I give a commandment to the children of men to live in harmony with all my "creations," for nature is not an enemy to me, and man shall not molest the earth. For I, God, am not a respecter of persons, for by the hand of one, all shall be punished." This way the mormons, being the sheep that they are, will follow. It's really that simple.

Aren't my god-speak skills top notch?! I learned from the best. Now all I have to do is get a small following and lace the sacrament with shrooms; Then I'll have myself a religion!
OOooooOOooo Holy Ghooost! -Eddie Izzard

[jtrent77]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

Well I could think of many other ways the lds church could try to reduce traffic on the roads... locate their temple near a mass transit station so one does not need a car to get there... or have them teach their members about living sustainably and responsibly... just say god said: "I give a commandment to the children of men to live in harmony with all my "creations," for nature is not an enemy to me, and man shall not molest the earth. For I, God, am not a respecter of persons, for by the hand of one, all shall be punished." This way the mormons, being the sheep that they are, will follow. It's really that simple.

Aren't my god-speak skills top notch?! I learned from the best. Now all I have to do is get a small following and lace the sacrament with shrooms; Then I'll have myself a religion!
OOooooOOooo Holy Ghooost! -Eddie Izzard

Many temples were built before some of the mass transit was in place. And plenty are not far from bus routes at the very least.

For example Oquirrh Mountain will be at the end of the West Jordan Trax line (once it is done)

Salt Lake is smack dab on Trax

Payson will be only a few blocks from FrontRunner when it is finished

Provo is on a bus route

D.C. has a bus stop right at it (and was built before metro was)

Manhattan is practically on top of a Subway stop

Preston, England has a train stop just .5 mile from it

the new Calgary will be right next to a light rail stop

These are just the ones off the top of my head...I don't know all the mass transit options in every location.

So to say the LDS Church isn't trying to give people options other than driving isn't exactly accurate. True that there are also many that are not located near transit, but to generalize EITHER way would be in error.

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by urbanboy

Well I could think of many other ways the lds church could try to reduce traffic on the roads... locate their temple near a mass transit station so one does not need a car to get there... or have them teach their members about living sustainably and responsibly... just say god said: "I give a commandment to the children of men to live in harmony with all my "creations," for nature is not an enemy to me, and man shall not molest the earth. For I, God, am not a respecter of persons, for by the hand of one, all shall be punished." This way the mormons, being the sheep that they are, will follow. It's really that simple.

Aren't my god-speak skills top notch?! I learned from the best. Now all I have to do is get a small following and lace the sacrament with shrooms; Then I'll have myself a religion!
OOooooOOooo Holy Ghooost! -Eddie Izzard

Nice, you really got those mormons good!

Good point jtrent. Some temples serve a much greater radius then others, making transportation options different in each case.

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by jtrent77

Many temples were built before some of the mass transit was in place. And plenty are not far from bus routes at the very least.

For example Oquirrh Mountain will be at the end of the West Jordan Trax line (once it is done)

Salt Lake is smack dab on Trax

Payson will be only a few blocks from FrontRunner when it is finished

Provo is on a bus route

D.C. has a bus stop right at it (and was built before metro was)

Manhattan is practically on top of a Subway stop

Preston, England has a train stop just .5 mile from it

the new Calgary will be right next to a light rail stop

These are just the ones off the top of my head...I don't know all the mass transit options in every location.

So to say the LDS Church isn't trying to give people options other than driving isn't exactly accurate. True that there are also many that are not located near transit, but to generalize EITHER way would be in error.

If these lds temples are more than a half mile from a rail stop, then they are not within walking distance of reliable mass transit, at least not reliable to the masses.

[esirhgih]

I'm for transit as much as the next guy, but its not as if LDS temples are the only things being built more than .5 mile from transit. LDS temples are just the only things that urbanboy has a personal agenda against that aren't being built next to train stations.

[urbanboy]

Originally Posted by esirhgih

I'm for transit as much as the next guy, but its not as if LDS temples are the only things being built more than .5 mile from transit. LDS temples are just the only things that urbanboy has a personal agenda against that aren't being built next to train stations.

Simply not true, I bring transit up any time there is a new development. I was upset when the location for the natural history museum was chosen because it was not downtown or near a reliable transit line, I was upset when the locations were chosen for both the aquarium and the soccer stadium for the very same reasons. I also even brought up transit when the location for the spy center was chosen. There's just NO excuse for the lds church... they have enough money to buy any parcel they wish. So, now that scientists understand the causes of climate change a little better, why aren't the lds church and community leaders working to create an efficient and environmentally friendly infrastructure and therefore community?

[delts145]

Orem - UVU looking for funds to replace overloaded science building

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/ce...46a476e-58d5-5db9-bb23-8754e14098e2.html


UVU Campus

..."it's just not adquate for the size of school that we've become," Holland said of the current science building on Thursday.

The Pope Science building was built decades ago when Utah Valley State College had about 8,000 students.

Today, Utah Valley University has 28,000 students and grows by about 3,000 students a year. Nursing, pre-dental and pre-med students populate the campus. They all need science classes...


Students make their way to and from class in The Pope Science Building, Thursday, Jan. 28, 2010. Central Utah Clinic, Mountain View Hospital and Timpanogos Regional Hospital are donating $15,000 to UVU for a new science building, since there is a lack of space for all of the students who use the building. PATRICK SMITH/Daily Herald



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[delts145]

Pleasant Grove - Murdock Canal trail will cost Pleasant Grove $388,000

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/no...634081d-c8e4-5c53-9c82-a7e689b2bc2e.html


A bicyclist rides along the Murdock Canal in Pleasant Grove on Wednesday, August 26, 2009. The canal is 23 miles in length through northern Utah County. ASHLEY FRANSCELL/Daily Herald

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[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by poodledoodledude

i know they have closed "church buildings" -- especially in salt lake (avenues) because of lack of members in the area.

One of the things I've enjoyed seeing is the repurposing of underused/abandoned LDS Church meetinghouses in certain neighborhoods to become wonderful facilities for other, less locally "popular" religious congregations. There's a great example on the west side where a Catholic Vietnamese congregation has taken a Mormon church from the 1960s and added their own distinctive architectural details like a bell tower, statue of Mary, and (I don't have the architectural term for it) overhanging beams from the eaves to make what used to be a cookie cutter building into a distinctive place of worship. There are a few other examples I can think of, both Baptist congregations, but the Catholic Vietnamese congregation has done it the best.