Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[vansky]

just a side comment, i hope they build an elevated track instead of an underground, since it looks much more interesting above ground...

[NetMapel]

It should be underground until the end of West Broadway, at around Point Grey. After that point, I don't really care if it's underground or elevated... maybe elevated for a nice view.

[The_Henry_Man]

I took the 99 from Broadway-City Hall Station to visit a few old profs at UBC last week, packed literally like sardines (stood right beside the driver at the very front of bus, in front of the yellow line ALL THE WAY TO UBC) at 1030h, not even during rush hour, and this ride took 35 minutes, whereas only 17-18min on the Skytrain from Richmond Centre. It used to be 40-45min from UBC all the way to Commercial-Broadway. Now the 99 trip is longer thanks to the addition of stops at Arbutus and Fraser (not necessarily a bad thing) and that the driver drove like a grandma. The choice of extending Millenium Line Skytrain right to UBC is SO obvious here. There's ABSOLUTELY no need for a public discussion. There really should be over 90% support for this project. It's one of those times that a public discussion will do much worse to the region than not having one.

I tested whether the new C-Line Skytrain/99B routing will be faster than taking the 480 from Richmond Centre, and taking the former is still 5 min slower than the 480. If the M-Line Skytrain is extended to UBC, it would've only taken approximately 35min (assuming the Skytrain ride from Broadway-Ctiy Hall to UBC is halved compared to today's 99) to go to UBC all the way from Richmond Centre, almost the same time it takes to drive to UBC from the same starting point, at 30min, assuming ZERO traffic congestion!!! In comparison, it takes around 45-50min to go to UBC from Richmond Centre via the 480.

These anti-Skytrain folks and guys like Zweisystem are truly smoking crack!!

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by satishreddy

I am in favour of "skytrain" to UBC.

Regarding surface LRT to UBC along Broadway, some questions and comments:

-My guess is that the LRT option has a capital cost of $500million to $1 billion, when one includes rails, trains, maintenance centre

- By the way, where will the LRT maintenance centre be located?

- One lane each way will be dedicated to rails. Will cars be allowed on that lane? If not, then one has reduced capacity on Broadway.

- How long will the trip take between Commercial/Broadway station and UBC? If the time is the same as the bus, then what is the point of spending a whole lot of money, without any real benefit to the rider.

- What is the operating cost of LRT compared to the current bus compared to Skytrain?

- One distinct disadvantage of LRT that mixes with regular traffic is the risk of accidents, which will shut the system down.

- What is the logic of putting of using Skytrain on the Evergreen line and LRT on Broadway? UBC and Central Broadway are the 2nd and 3rd most popular transit destinations in the region. The Evergreen line goes through a region of low density.

I have seen estimates that the Evergreen line (11 km) will have 25,000 boardings when it opens and perhaps 50,000 in 20 years. If it Skytrain in a tunnel, then the UBC line will cost about twice as much as the Evergreen line. My prediction is that it will have at least 2.5 to 3.5 times as many boarding on opening day. It will also cut travel time compared to the existing bus significantly.

Estimated station boardings (UBC skytrain - along Broadway and 10th) - based on my observations of transit connections, businesses, density of housing in the area:

UBC - 12000-15000 per day
Sasamat - 4000-6000 per day
Alma - 4000-6000 per day
MacDonald - 4000-6000 per day
Granville - 6000-8000 per day
Oak - 6000-8000 per day
Cambie 12000-15000 per day
Main 8000-10000 per day
There may be one more station between Main and Commercial/Broadway.
Broadway/Commercial 6000-8000 boarding to go west (not including people already on the train)

Don't forget the potential Finning Station and then VCC-Clark.

[racc]

A meeting people might want to sign up for.

TransLink UBC Line Rapid Transit Study Stakeholder Workshop
6:30 pm--9:30 pm Monday 18 January 2010:
Ballroom of the Plaza 500 Hotel, 500 W. 12th.
Registration begins 6pm.
Register to attend [email protected].

http://www.translink.ca/en/Get-Involved/Public-Consultations/UBC-Rapid-Transit.aspx

[NetMapel]

Originally Posted by racc

A meeting people might want to sign up for.

TransLink UBC Line Rapid Transit Study Stakeholder Workshop
6:30 pm--9:30 pm Monday 18 January 2010:
Ballroom of the Plaza 500 Hotel, 500 W. 12th.
Registration begins 6pm.
Register to attend [email protected].

http://www.translink.ca/en/Get-Involved/Public-Consultations/UBC-Rapid-Transit.aspx

I think those NIMBYs and anti-skytrain people are kind of like those crazy anti-healthcare people in the US. They get so passionate and go to all those meetings making their points. Problem is that their points aren't exactly logical and so they shout louder to dictate the discussion.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by satishreddy

Estimated station boardings (UBC skytrain - along Broadway and 10th) - based on my observations of transit connections, businesses, density of housing in the area:

UBC - 12000-15000 per day
Sasamat - 4000-6000 per day
Alma - 4000-6000 per day
MacDonald - 4000-6000 per day
Granville - 6000-8000 per day
Oak - 6000-8000 per day
Cambie 12000-15000 per day
Main 8000-10000 per day
There may be one more station between Main and Commercial/Broadway.
Broadway/Commercial 6000-8000 boarding to go west (not including people already on the train)

You missed two other obvious places for stations:

1) Halfway between Alma and McDonald (e.g. Trutch). This is a vibrant commercial corridor with great potential.

2) Arbutus.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

It should be underground until the end of West Broadway, at around Point Grey. After that point, I don't really care if it's underground or elevated... maybe elevated for a nice view.

The affluent and well-connected residents of that part of town will care.

Moreover, your indefference makes no sense from an engineering perspective. A very steep, upward hill begins at that point. The geography virtually necessitates a subterranean route to the next station.

[NetMapel]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

The affluent and well-connected residents of that part of town will care.

Moreover, your indefference makes no sense from an engineering perspective. A very steep, upward hill begins at that point. The geography virtually necessitates a subterranean route to the next station.

I am not an engineer so I will trust the engineers' decision as to whether the line should be underground or elevated when they build the line. That is what I meant by "I don't care."

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

I think those NIMBYs and anti-skytrain people are kind of like those crazy anti-healthcare people in the US. They get so passionate and go to all those meetings making their points. Problem is that their points aren't exactly logical and so they shout louder to dictate the discussion.

On the contrary. Those who oppose state-run healthcare as a violation of individual freedom have a monopoly on logic (and morality) on this issue.

[red-paladin]

It's clear that LRT would take the same time to get to UBC as a B-Line.

I'm really sure that if LRT wasn't fast enough or high enough capacity for the Evergreen line, it won't be for this one either. I don't think Campbell would let an LRT get built through that when Canada Line was chosen to go underground so that it wouldn't be visible. I'm sure that they would want it to be invisible through the Broadway corridor as well.

[usog]

Honestly I doubt Translink will ever put in LRT on Broadway anyways. It's always been their intention to keep with Skytrain. I assume they'll just humor the LRT group for a while and then announce their predetermined choice. Of course, they'll need to have the balls to force it through but judging by past history it'll go through. The only question is how far they will water down the design ala-Canada Line.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

It's clear that LRT would take the same time to get to UBC as a B-Line.

That is not true, unless there is some accident that is blocking the tracks. That being said, LRT wouldn't be substantially faster than the current B-Line and would never match the speed of the SkyTrain unless it was built fully segregated from traffic.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I took the 99 from Broadway-City Hall Station to visit a few old profs at UBC last week, packed literally like sardines (stood right beside the driver at the very front of bus, in front of the yellow line ALL THE WAY TO UBC) at 1030h, not even during rush hour, and this ride took 35 minutes, whereas only 17-18min on the Skytrain from Richmond Centre. It used to be 40-45min from UBC all the way to Commercial-Broadway. Now the 99 trip is longer thanks to the addition of stops at Arbutus and Fraser (not necessarily a bad thing) and that the driver drove like a grandma. The choice of extending Millenium Line Skytrain right to UBC is SO obvious here. There's ABSOLUTELY no need for a public discussion. There really should be over 90% support for this project. It's one of those times that a public discussion will do much worse to the region than not having one.

I tested whether the new C-Line Skytrain/99B routing will be faster than taking the 480 from Richmond Centre, and taking the former is still 5 min slower than the 480. If the M-Line Skytrain is extended to UBC, it would've only taken approximately 35min (assuming the Skytrain ride from Broadway-Ctiy Hall to UBC is halved compared to today's 99) to go to UBC all the way from Richmond Centre, almost the same time it takes to drive to UBC from the same starting point, at 30min, assuming ZERO traffic congestion!!! In comparison, it takes around 45-50min to go to UBC from Richmond Centre via the 480.

These anti-Skytrain folks and guys like Zweisystem are truly smoking crack!!

The trouble is, they often WIN !! §§ ........... ............ BUT ......... ...... THIS TIME I HOPE THEY LOSE.... BIG TIME....... THEY'D REGRET IT IN THE LONG RUN WHEN THE POPULATION GETS BIGGER AND THE TRAFFIC EAVER HEAVIER ..............
yes........
SYYTRAIN- AND THAT MEANS UNDER GROUND RAIL ALL/MOST OF THE WAY IS THE ONLY WAY. .................
here comes the train_here comes the train_ here comes the train

[Metro-One]

Hehe, you definitely get the spirit award!

The furthest west I would take it underground in Blanca Street, after that it should be elevated (or at grade akin to the C-line along Sea Island).

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

On the contrary. Those who oppose state-run healthcare as a violation of individual freedom have a monopoly on logic (and morality) on this issue.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I took the 99 from Broadway-City Hall Station to visit a few old profs at UBC last week, packed literally like sardines (stood right beside the driver at the very front of bus, in front of the yellow line ALL THE WAY TO UBC) at 1030h, not even during rush hour, and this ride took 35 minutes, whereas only 17-18min on the Skytrain from Richmond Centre. It used to be 40-45min from UBC all the way to Commercial-Broadway. Now the 99 trip is longer thanks to the addition of stops at Arbutus and Fraser (not necessarily a bad thing) and that the driver drove like a grandma. The choice of extending Millenium Line Skytrain right to UBC is SO obvious here. There's ABSOLUTELY no need for a public discussion. There really should be over 90% support for this project. It's one of those times that a public discussion will do much worse to the region than not having one.

I tested whether the new C-Line Skytrain/99B routing will be faster than taking the 480 from Richmond Centre, and taking the former is still 5 min slower than the 480. If the M-Line Skytrain is extended to UBC, it would've only taken approximately 35min (assuming the Skytrain ride from Broadway-Ctiy Hall to UBC is halved compared to today's 99) to go to UBC all the way from Richmond Centre, almost the same time it takes to drive to UBC from the same starting point, at 30min, assuming ZERO traffic congestion!!! In comparison, it takes around 45-50min to go to UBC from Richmond Centre via the 480.

These anti-Skytrain folks and guys like Zweisystem are truly smoking crack!!

I also am a strong supporter of skytrain format transport to UBC

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Hehe, you definitely get the spirit award!

The furthest west I would take it underground in Blanca Street, after that it should be elevated (or at grade akin to the C-line along Sea Island).

I'm sure about at-Grade, but I don't quite understand the role of Sea Island, or the reference to the c-line. Could you elaborate just a bit. thanks.

[nname]

Originally Posted by satishreddy

UBC - 12000-15000 per day
Sasamat - 4000-6000 per day
Alma - 4000-6000 per day
MacDonald - 4000-6000 per day
Granville - 6000-8000 per day
Oak - 6000-8000 per day
Cambie 12000-15000 per day
Main 8000-10000 per day
There may be one more station between Main and Commercial/Broadway.
Broadway/Commercial 6000-8000 boarding to go west (not including people already on the train)

I think this number is a bit low, as your number only gives a ridership of 62000-83000 riders a day.

UBC - Using the 2008 data, if the SkyTrain take all of #44, #84, and #99 riders, and half of the riders on #4, #9, #17, #25, #480, this gives daily boarding of 15,500. If the ridership in UBC keeps with the pace of annual 3% growth in ridership, that gives a ridership of 22,100 by 2020, without taking into effect of the new rail system.

Sasmat, Alma, Macdonald - Using the 99 B-Line 2007 boarding and load data, assuming everyone who disembark at the station will board the train again in the return trip, annual transit ridership increase of 3%, and the increase of ridership of 80%, include conversion from local bus routes (as experienced from Canada Line):
Sasmat - 6800
Alma - 5800
Macdonald - 10,600

Granville - Assume 1/3 of the boarding of 99 B-Line come from 98 B-Line transfer, then the boarding would be 10,800

Oak - Using the data for Willow - 12,900

Cambie - Move the 1/3 transfer here, then add 50% for additional ridership from Canada Line and 25% of the ridership of #44 and #480 - 17,000

Main - Using the same method, 11,600

Commerical-Broadway - Assume the boarding on UBC line equals to the half of the rider alight the Expo Line who did not transfer to Millennium Line east, multiple by the same factor used above - 22,700

Total: 120,300, plus an increase of 3000 riders for VCC/Clark, plus some new riders from Finning and Arbutus.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by deasine

That is not true, unless there is some accident that is blocking the tracks. That being said, LRT wouldn't be substantially faster than the current B-Line and would never match the speed of the SkyTrain unless it was built fully segregated from traffic.

Sorry for exaggerating.