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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2061  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 11:28 AM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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It's too bad he had to Hijack that thread. I think Bombardier tech on an elevated guideway would be great for Honolulu. The city is very tightly packed in, with lots of cross roads and very few cross town streets. With the way the mountains come down, it cuts huge swaths into the city, so going East-West is only possible on the freeway. A surface rail through the city would take away traffic lanes the city is already in short supply of.

And where does he get off quoting these numbers?

LRT in Pheonix is something like 33% above predictions at just under 35,000 riders per day... on a system 32km long that cost $1.4 billion to build. Sure, that's a low cost per km (well not really @ $43M/km) but a rather high cost per rider. And this is in a metro of over 4 million people.

Compare that to our network, which according to zweisystem cost us around $5 billion so far: so just over 3 times as much cost, for twice the length of track, for over 7 times the ridership.

People are hailing the LRT system in Pheonix as a huge success, better than expected. But the train only generates 25% of its annual operating cost from fares, the rest is subsidized.

I don't understand how zweisystem can argue that Skytrain is a failure, when compared to all LRT, Skytrain is leaps and bounds beyond anything else. In fact, Skytrain (with Canada Line) has more daily riders than any North American LRT system except for maybe Monterey (depending if you count weekends, but it's a grade separated elevated system, basically skytrain with drivers and overhead wires).

While I agree with zweisystem that LRT has a place, even in Vancouver, it's not on Broadway, where demand will be even greater than Canada Line, which already has more riders than all but the top 8 LRT systems in North America.
     
     
  #2062  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 12:16 PM
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I'm looking at UBC's facts and figures from: http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/services-for-media/ubc-facts-figures/

All students: 44,982
Total UBC faculty and staff: 13,622

That is 58,604 people whose sole destination is the school every day and the figure will increase as each school year intake more students. That doesn't account for any visitors who randomly drop by the school for a tour and more (Thunderbird Arena, Wreck Beach). As such, there is absolutely no question that skytrain all the way to UBC is needed. It doesn't have to be built now or it can be built in phases, but it will have to be done eventually. There could also be two stations within the UBC campus, one at the north end, and another one maybe at Thunderbird Arena or the research buildings at the southern end. In fact, I wouldn't even mind if the subway line does a loop that will go from the north end of the campus to the southern end and run along W 41st Ave all the way to Metrotown station.
     
     
  #2063  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 1:12 PM
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^And don't forget the thousands of permanent residents (i.e. non-students) that live in the endowment lands.
     
     
  #2064  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 3:49 PM
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Wonder if there would be any savings in having the ubc terminus be a single track loop. Having the trains enter UBC on a single guidway complete a small loop with a couple of stations and then hook back up to a dual guideway as it exits the campus. Not sure if it would amount to any cost savings though as the loop would end up being longer then just taking a double guideway into campus. The single track shouldn't have any affect on timings unless I'm missing something, in fact it might even speed things up as there wouldn't be a need to switch tracks.
     
     
  #2065  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 5:48 PM
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To my surprise, Jarrett Walker made a post in ZweiMalcom's blog. As usual, he says what I want to say but much more elegantly....

Quote:
Quick tip on style. If your goal is to combat hysteria, it’s important to avoid sounding hysterical or enraged yourself. This post will fan hysteria, not combat it.

Mode choice tradeoffs are about a complex mix of variables and impacts. They are extremely hard decisions even when everyone involved is being rational.

For example, the problem with LRT mixing with intense pedestrian spaces is not that it’s unsafe (though that objection needs to be dealt with) but that to be safe it has to be very, very slow. So it all depends on what kind of travel times you want to achieve.

Many people in your region really like the speed and reliability offered by the current SkyTrain product, and are willing to go into elevated or underground stations to get that product. No solution that mixes with pedestrians will deliver SkyTrain reliability, frequency, or travel time. If you’re arguing that this is OK, then fine, make that argument.

But hysterical accusations of hysteria do not lead to good decisions, regardless of the merits of your case.
     
     
  #2066  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 6:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
Wonder if there would be any savings in having the ubc terminus be a single track loop. Having the trains enter UBC on a single guidway complete a small loop with a couple of stations and then hook back up to a dual guideway as it exits the campus. Not sure if it would amount to any cost savings though as the loop would end up being longer then just taking a double guideway into campus. The single track shouldn't have any affect on timings unless I'm missing something, in fact it might even speed things up as there wouldn't be a need to switch tracks.
Iunno about cost, but I highly wouldn't recommend single-tracking from the problems we've seen at Richmond-Brighouse Station.
     
     
  #2067  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 6:38 PM
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He means a one way loop around campus instead of a double-tracked tail track (i.e. through trains would never need to stop to change direction).
The main problem I could see is that a limited number of passengers would not be able to run the loop the other way between the, say, two stations on the loop. That may not be a huge problem at UBC however unless students plan on taking the train from one end of campus to the other. A crossover before the loop could resolve issues if there is a disabled train on the loop.
I do think that there should be more than one station on Campus (i.e. near the South Campus residential projects)

**********

WRT development near rapid transit stations - the two have to go hand in hand - otherwise the investment in infrastructure is wasted. It's not like a bus route that can be redeployed as necessary - it's more like building a Mirabel Airport without any passengers.

Interesting how groups advocating "sustainability" seen to have big environmental footprints.
     
     
  #2068  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 7:46 PM
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Heathrow used a one-way loop at the end of the subway line to connect its terminals to each other (at least until Terminal 5, haven't been there to see it) and it worked very well there.
     
     
  #2069  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 8:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
To my surprise, Jarrett Walker made a post in ZweiMalcom's blog. As usual, he says what I want to say but much more elegantly....
Thanks for trying to rebuttal his replys. Unfortunately it seems hopeless as he chooses to think what he wants to think. I also jumped in and comment, not surprisingly his reply was delusional and hypocrital as usual.
     
     
  #2070  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 11:00 PM
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this post?
http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/20...nti-lrt-lobby-time-to-get-real/#comments

it is quite rare for Zwei's blog to have more than 10 comments
     
     
  #2071  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Quick tip on style. If your goal is to combat hysteria, it’s important to avoid sounding hysterical or enraged yourself. This post will fan hysteria, not combat it.

Mode choice tradeoffs are about a complex mix of variables and impacts. They are extremely hard decisions even when everyone involved is being rational.

For example, the problem with LRT mixing with intense pedestrian spaces is not that it’s unsafe (though that objection needs to be dealt with) but that to be safe it has to be very, very slow. So it all depends on what kind of travel times you want to achieve.

Many people in your region really like the speed and reliability offered by the current SkyTrain product, and are willing to go into elevated or underground stations to get that product. No solution that mixes with pedestrians will deliver SkyTrain reliability, frequency, or travel time. If you’re arguing that this is OK, then fine, make that argument.

But hysterical accusations of hysteria do not lead to good decisions, regardless of the merits of your case.
That's a very good point people overlook; Skytrain is like a product people consume. If you want people to consume transit, you have to provide transit people want.

So you have to look at what the overall goal is. Is it:
1) Offer a cost effective (maybe profitable) affordable transportation alternative to driving. IE make it possible for people to get around without having to own a car.
OR 2) Build a system with the goal of attracting as many riders as possible away from the car. Build an effective system for the greater public good.

The advantage with going with option 1 is that you are building transit for people who NEED it. In option 1, the people on Transit have to be on it because they don't want to, or can't afford (car+gas+insurance+parking), an automobile. You have a captured audience, so you can build cheap networks. It doesn't matter if a trip takes thrice as long as a car trip, the riders have no alternative.

The advantage of going with option 2 is that you are providing an attractive form of transport. You are encouraging people to choose transit. The majority of people out there will always be able to afford a car, so you have to attract them away from it. And you do that by offering something competitive and fast, which usually means expensive. So yes it will cost more per Km, but you get more riders per Km too.

So if your goal is to attract as many riders to transit as possible, you have to spend money on something people WANT to consume.

Especially in a city like Vancouver, where traffic isn't as bad as it is in other cities. You need to offer a fast alternative. If a transit trip is hugely longer than driving, most people will chose time over money.

So, LRT on Broadway is like option 1. You are building a system mostly for the people who need it. It probably won't attract that many more people, and you're building is as a more cost effective alternative to running the current number of buses. Rail will draw some out of the woodwork, but if most people avoid the bus because driving is faster to get to work on Broadway, then they will keep driving.

Skytrain on Broadway is like option 2. You are building a system as an alternative to driving. People who currently drive would like the speed advantage of Skytrain, and are more likely to switch. We have seen this with the Expo Line, and are seeing it happen already on the Canada Line, and WCE is expensive, but runs at capacity.

If you're happy with current ridership statistics on the Broadway corridor (and the entire system), then LRT is a logical choice. It won't drive away any riders (unless it's actually slower than the B line) and it's cost effective, and will grow with the ridership growth of the rest of the system.

If you want to massively increase ridership on the Broadway Corridor, then Skytrain is the logical choice. It's fast, and there are many people who drive to work in the area that would like the speed of Skytrain. As well, it will integrate better with the existing system. The advantage of riding all the way from Coquitlam Center to UBC on a single vehicule, or making a single transfer at Commercial or Cambie, is hard to ignore. Not only would Skytrain increase ridership on the Broadway Corridor, it would increase Ridership on the rest of the Network (getting to the Broadway Corridor).

And it's been shown that people in Vancouver like to ride Skytrain. The only thing holding back the Millennium line has been the fact that when it was built, it didn't go near any homes or offices. But even considering that, the Millennium line has been a success as it offers a very fast trip from Lougheed to Downtown. If it was any slower, due to level crossings or more stations, it would have been an unmitigated disaster. Noone would have taken a Millennium line LRT as Lougheed is a very fast way to get into the city by car.
     
     
  #2072  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 11:08 PM
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ZweiMalcom is insane! I can not even read his posts for more than 5 minutes without getting frustrated.

He seriously reminds me of this family guy skit. (he is the donkey)

Video Link


Sorry for acting a little childish, but I could think of no other way to describe what I think of him and his approach to arguing (and denial).
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  #2073  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 11:15 PM
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Here is what I posted:


It has been my observation that the basic point made by those who favour the completion of the Millennium Line to UBC using SkyTrain ALRT technology is as follows:

Central Broadway and UBC are the second and third largest trip generators in the region and these should be linked to the SkyTrain rapid transit network using the proven 99 B-Line stop spacing because it would offer high-capacity local service and the shortest travel times for passengers travelling across the region.

The principle responses I have observed engage with cost and the technical merit of LRT. I disagree with neither and repeat that Central Broadway and UBC are destinations of regional, as well as local, significance. LRT would be appropriate and desirable in many, many places in Metro Vancouver, including at-grade on Broadway even with SkyTrain running beneath, as is the case with MUNI and BART along Market Street in San Francisco. Furthermore the rapid transit network cannot and will never go everywhere. However the Broadway to UBC corridor is appropriate for SkyTrain and I think it would be one of the last routes in the region where this is the case.

Once we have completed the frequent, high capacity rapid transit network with the UBC line we can shift our focus to building out a comprehensive semi-regional and local LRT and tram network.
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  #2074  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 12:17 AM
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I will never waste time to post in Zwei blog, unless you pretend to agree with him somehow , he will remove your message easily.
     
     
  #2075  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
LRT would be appropriate and desirable in many, many places in Metro Vancouver, including at-grade on Broadway even with SkyTrain running beneath, as is the case with MUNI and BART along Market Street in San Francisco. Furthermore the rapid transit network cannot and will never go everywhere. However the Broadway to UBC corridor is appropriate for SkyTrain and I think it would be one of the last routes in the region where this is the case.

Once we have completed the frequent, high capacity rapid transit network with the UBC line we can shift our focus to building out a comprehensive semi-regional and local LRT and tram network.
Similarly, I thought a tram, replacing the current 9 trolley with stops every 300-600 metres, in addition to SkyTrain would work quite well.
     
     
  #2076  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 1:25 AM
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Does anyone else find it annoying how he edits posts by adding his own commentary? I mean, it's his own blog...he can do whatever he wants, but...
     
     
  #2077  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 1:48 AM
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Zewi: Until there are independent audits of ridership, as what is the norm with other transit systems, TransLink will claim the moon and the stars for ridership
without any worry of audit.

-----------------------
just out of curious, does anyone know which other transit systems have independent audits of ridership?
     
     
  #2078  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 6:01 AM
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Presumably, there would be rights of audit under the Concession Agreement - triggered by TransLink if InTransitBC/ProTrans' figures look too low.
Contracts never have one party reporting a figure on which payments are made without the right of the other party to audit to confirm - whether to see if the payment is too high ot too low.
     
     
  #2079  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2010, 10:38 PM
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Dunno if this has been mentioned, but there is an upcoming open house for UBC rapid transit 'stakeholders', and it sounds like NIMBYs and tram advocates are going to vent...

Quote:
The following Monday (January 18), TransLink is hosting a stakeholder meeting from 6-9 p.m. on a proposed rapid-transit line to UBC. It will take place at the Plaza 500 Hotel at 500 West 12th Avenue.
...
BARSTA says it's not against transit, but prefers an affordable, low-impact, cost-effective, and community-accessible system rather than a SkyTrain-style project.

BARSTA favours a $360-million European-style, at-grade train, which would provide more stops along Broadway than a $2-billion subway.
Anyone going?

http://www.straight.com/article-280315/v...ser-perimeter-road-and-broadway-skytrain

And Jarrett Walker has another thought-provoking piece on transit planning. Portland built 3 LRT lines and a downtown streetcar in the past decade. the amount of mode-shift from car to transit? Close to nil in the past 10 years...

Quote:
If we're to believe the data, the journey-to-work results of all this investment, and all these people living closer to transit, didn't amount to much. Transit mode share for work trips went nowhere. Drive-alone mode share was down around 5% on the decade but mostly near the end.
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/01/portland-a-challenging-chart.html#comments
     
     
  #2080  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2010, 11:55 PM
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I am in favour of "skytrain" to UBC.

Regarding surface LRT to UBC along Broadway, some questions and comments:

-My guess is that the LRT option has a capital cost of $500million to $1 billion, when one includes rails, trains, maintenance centre

- By the way, where will the LRT maintenance centre be located?

- One lane each way will be dedicated to rails. Will cars be allowed on that lane? If not, then one has reduced capacity on Broadway.

- How long will the trip take between Commercial/Broadway station and UBC? If the time is the same as the bus, then what is the point of spending a whole lot of money, without any real benefit to the rider.

- What is the operating cost of LRT compared to the current bus compared to Skytrain?

- One distinct disadvantage of LRT that mixes with regular traffic is the risk of accidents, which will shut the system down.

- What is the logic of putting of using Skytrain on the Evergreen line and LRT on Broadway? UBC and Central Broadway are the 2nd and 3rd most popular transit destinations in the region. The Evergreen line goes through a region of low density.

I have seen estimates that the Evergreen line (11 km) will have 25,000 boardings when it opens and perhaps 50,000 in 20 years. If it Skytrain in a tunnel, then the UBC line will cost about twice as much as the Evergreen line. My prediction is that it will have at least 2.5 to 3.5 times as many boarding on opening day. It will also cut travel time compared to the existing bus significantly.

Estimated station boardings (UBC skytrain - along Broadway and 10th) - based on my observations of transit connections, businesses, density of housing in the area:

UBC - 12000-15000 per day
Sasamat - 4000-6000 per day
Alma - 4000-6000 per day
MacDonald - 4000-6000 per day
Granville - 6000-8000 per day
Oak - 6000-8000 per day
Cambie 12000-15000 per day
Main 8000-10000 per day
There may be one more station between Main and Commercial/Broadway.
Broadway/Commercial 6000-8000 boarding to go west (not including people already on the train)
     
     
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