Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[deasine]

While Canada Line trains slow down a bit before the platforms, it feels a lot slower because the platforms are also a lot slower. With the SkyTrain platforms, they are much longer, meaning they don't have to slow down that much to stop.

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I think that the programmed motions for the trains could be improved. There are some rough stops, I agree. Also, I don't know why the southbound trains decelerate and then accelerate abruptly right before stopping at the southbound Commercial-Broadway platform. Hasn't anyone else felt that?

There are several other strange accelerations and decelerations across the system that don't appear to be as smooth as they could be.

I also noticed that with the MKIs and newer MKIIs. Many still loose their balance or are caught by surprise. It still doesn't explain the difference between the older generation MKIIs deceleration with the newer generation ones. I'm not going to compare it to a bus, but it feels like the trains just slam on the brakes just to make a complete stop.

If you go take a look at a few other metros, like the new London Underground Trains (I believe on the Piccadilly Line) and the newer DLR trains, their acceleration is incredibly fast and deceleration is fast but smooth.

[Waders]

Originally Posted by deasine

One thing I don't understand is their stops. It's way more rough and abrupt compared to the older generation MKIIs, even compared to the Canada Line at times.

I noticed that too, especially with the new 4-cars MKII. Now the trains seem to slow down a lot just before entering some stations and slowly decelerate to a complete stop. It may be related to the total weight of the cars.

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by deasine

While Canada Line trains slow down a bit before the platforms, it feels a lot slower because the platforms are also a lot slower. With the SkyTrain platforms, they are much longer, meaning they don't have to slow down that much to stop.



I also noticed that with the MKIs and newer MKIIs. Many still loose their balance or are caught by surprise. It still doesn't explain the difference between the older generation MKIIs deceleration with the newer generation ones. I'm not going to compare it to a bus, but it feels like the trains just slam on the brakes just to make a complete stop.

If you go take a look at a few other metros, like the new London Underground Trains (I believe on the Piccadilly Line) and the newer DLR trains, their acceleration is incredibly fast and deceleration is fast but smooth.

London tube trains run slower on most lines than Skytrain - it just feels fast because it is underground in small tunnels. The tube trains normally enter a station at 50km/h then use the length of the station to decelerate and stop. Train speeds underground are usually 50km/h to 60km/h - on older lines train speed are checked for tight turns. The Victoria Line has the fastest overall speed with train running around 80km/h due to no tight curves and stations spaced far apart. The fastest trains are on the Metropolitan express tracks north of Baker Street, with trains running at 115km/h.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I was on the new Mark II trains for the first time today....I quite like them and would prefer them anyday over the Rotem Canada Line trains. And the acceleration/deceleration is incredible.

Hmmm, wait until you hear them with the A/C on.

I like the big front windows of the Rotem trains, and more spacious overall feel.

[Millennium2002]

About the sudden jerking while stopping on the new Mark II trains... I've felt that as well on the last few times that I have taken SkyTrain. You do wish they could somehow program it so that the ride would be more comforting... but I'm not sure if it's possible. There were a few cases last summer where the trains that I was in slammed on the brakes for a few incidents of computer crashing + skateboard on the trackway. The jerking to a stop may be a consequence of that... the train may not be just decelerating with the linear motor and it could be using all the brakes at the last second or two before it opens the doors.

At Commercial-Broadway Station, trains abruptly accelerate for a second at the southbound platform due to the new exit I believe... as it only started to occur when that opened. I think that the "stop" spot for the trains has also moved a little to the south... and for timing purposes they decided to have the trains take off a little after they finish the curve.

The difference from the new MKII and the old MKII may be more significant than we realize. Remember that in addition to the additional way-finding equipment (and the loud air conditioner) they also redid the linear motor. I'm not sure whether that may be causing some of our problems (or some other unknown redesigned component).

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I like it as a way to identify each car but they are only on the original MkI cars. They stopped using the "spirit of..." labels when they went to the MkI½ cars .

I used to like seeing which City's car I was riding. It also raises awareness that these places exist... prompting people to look them up or at least be familiar with them, even those that spend their entire waking life inside the city. ( Some people are so sheltered )

It could be expanded to things like famous mountains and lakes.

It doesn't have to be "Spirit of..." but I like the idea.

I like your idea of using places and geographic features, too. It's that "Spirit of this and that" that struck me as hokey.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by lightrail

London tube trains run slower on most lines than Skytrain - it just feels fast because it is underground in small tunnels. The tube trains normally enter a station at 50km/h then use the length of the station to decelerate and stop. Train speeds underground are usually 50km/h to 60km/h - on older lines train speed are checked for tight turns. The Victoria Line has the fastest overall speed with train running around 80km/h due to no tight curves and stations spaced far apart. The fastest trains are on the Metropolitan express tracks north of Baker Street, with trains running at 115km/h.

Excuse me. I was actually referring to the Victoria Line, not Piccadilly. Sorry about that. But the point being, not about the overall general speed, but the way it accelerates and decelerates and its smoothness. This video really shows how quickly and smoothly these long trains accelerate and decelerate.

• Video Link

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

At Commercial-Broadway Station, trains abruptly accelerate for a second at the southbound platform due to the new exit I believe... as it only started to occur when that opened. I think that the "stop" spot for the trains has also moved a little to the south... and for timing purposes they decided to have the trains take off a little after they finish the curve.

From what I recall, the sudden stop at Commercial-Broadway Station occurs with the old MKIs, newer MK IIs (less significant on the old MKIIs), ever since the Millennium Line opened. I think they wanted to slow down the trains before the turn, for one, so that on a really rainy day, water wouldn't gush down the Millennium Line tracks/Commercial ticket concourse area.

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

The difference from the new MKII and the old MKII may be more significant than we realize. Remember that in addition to the additional way-finding equipment (and the loud air conditioner) they also redid the linear motor. I'm not sure whether that may be causing some of our problems (or some other unknown redesigned component).

Good point about the linear motor. On the good side, the ride is quite a bit more quiet than the older MKIIs. I know the other cosmsetic additions, like the way-finding equipment (LED displays/LED maps) can be easily retrofired into the older MKIIs. But that's not going to happen anytime soon...

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by deasine

From what I recall, the sudden stop at Commercial-Broadway Station occurs with the old MKIs, newer MK IIs (less significant on the old MKIIs), ever since the Millennium Line opened. I think they wanted to slow down the trains before the turn, for one, so that on a really rainy day, water wouldn't gush down the Millennium Line tracks/Commercial ticket concourse area.

Really? That sounds like a pretty hokey reason to me. I always thought the drainage was pretty good on the Skytrain tracks.

Originally Posted by deasine

Good point about the linear motor. On the good side, the ride is quite a bit more quiet than the older MKIIs. I know the other cosmsetic additions, like the way-finding equipment (LED displays/LED maps) can be easily retrofired into the older MKIIs. But that's not going to happen anytime soon...

Yes the ride is a lot smoother. I'd say on par or better than the Canada Line. If that A/C issue is resolved before summer 2010, those will be the best ride in the city.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Really? That sounds like a pretty hokey reason to me. I always thought the drainage was pretty good on the Skytrain tracks.

I had a few times that happened to me on the Millennium Line, where the SkyTrain rushes ahead and pushes the water off the guideway and onto the road. Note, that's when it really rains hard.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by mr.x

My theory is that it's because the Canada Line trains come into a stations with a slow crawl, possibly to reduce the likelihood of overshooting as there's little room for error with the platforms/train lengths being the same, while Translink has the Mark II's programmed to rush into the stations. The rough/abrupt difference might not be mechanical.

I think that's true. I believe the Canada Line does enter the stations a lot slower compared to Skytrain. I think it has to do with depending on the friction of the brakes to actually stop the train. If it was moving faster, the chances of overshooting the stop point would be greater, especially in cold or wet conditions. The C-line trains do seem capable of accelerating and decelerating very quickly, but it's probably less reliable to be 100% consistent compared to Skytrain.

I think the LIM engine has that built in accuracy and reliability. C-Line trains depend on the Coefficient of friction of the track, wheels, and brakes, which can fluctuate. Skytrain LIM doesn't have such an external modifier that is variable (except maybe distance between the parts, which in a rail system is very constant and minimal, and the Electromagnetic field of the LIM actually lifts the train off the rails to achieve equilibrium).

[officedweller]

I've only taken the Canada Line a few times, but I did notice that some of the underground stations seem to be designed on a "rise" so that the natural uphill restistance provides part of the braking. I think this applies to Vancouver City Centre Station and to Yaletown Roundhouse Station. That could account for the "slower" entry into the stations.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Same deal also applies for the opposite directions though with the slope working against the brakes.

[Zassk]

I figure that the Canada Line trains are currently running on a very conservative travel configuration, just because the line is new. The trains go extremely slowly through any switches and even the slightest curves. I would hazard a guess that at least 2 minutes could be shaved off the end-to-end travel time if they gradually optimize the acceleration and deceleration in the future. As someone else mentioned, the trains are clearly capable of SkyTrain-like acceleration and deceleration, because there are a couple of spots where they do it. The Rotem trains travel fastest in some places you wouldn't expect, such as the single-track approaching Brighouse, and they go slower in some places where you'd expect them to maximize speed, such as the long straightaways on both sides of Aberdeen station.

[officedweller]

Probably schedule optimization, as others have mentioned. The slowdown near Aberdeen - is that only southbound? If so, it could be to prevent bunching at Brighouse.

[nname]

Maybe they'll change the timing next month, since the website says

SkyTrain Canada Line

Additional service Feb 12 – 28

Normal hours of operation. More frequent service throughout weekdays and weekday evenings to accommodate increased ridership. Additional trains will be available for use on weekends and to support the major events at Olympic venues.

So they'll put 18 trains in service to have 3min headways? Maybe they'll stay in service after the Olympics?

[SpongeG]

are there really going to be hour long waits during teh games to get on transit?

and do you really want to get free coffee from christians spreading their message?

according to global news translink is allowing some christian group to hand out coffee at stations during the games and spread their message...

this is not going to be pretty

[Yume-sama]

Yuck. I don't have anything against religious preaching, other than the fact that I hate ALL preaching.

Whether it be the annoying vegan friend who constantly tries to convert, or the enviro-hypocrites.

As for long lines, probably. Our cute little people mover Canada Line may not be able to handle demand after any major event.

[SpongeG]

also they will be setting up 15 stages across the city for performances of singing or dancing etc

the news raised the issue that how come they can do something but anti-olympic people are going to be shut out and shut down etc.

[Yume-sama]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

also they will be setting up 15 stages across the city for performances of singing or dancing etc

the news raised the issue that how come they can do something but anti-olympic people are going to be shut out and shut down etc.

What do they want? A concert? Isn't it rather pointless to be anti-Olympic, now? What does that position accomplish?

I'm sure they will ruin a lot of these performances with their antics, as they have ruined family activities in the past.

[SpongeG]

i don't know its just the news why is the christian group being given so much freedom

and if you turn to global right bnow they are doing a story on vancouvers future skyline... what will it look like in 40 years