Halifax Stadium Discussion

[dmont]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I think the logo could definitely come after the stadium is actually designed, would be nice if the logo had the same "feel" as the design of the stadium.

Curious about the stars along the top though... looks a little NFL-ish to me but still great job designing it!

I've got to disagree about your proposed timetable.

Right now, the goal should be to sell politicians and voters on the IDEA of a stadium, showing them the benefits that a stadium would mean for the city and that it can be financially feasible. The best way to do this would be to find similar stadium projects, both completed and proposed, and highlight the favourable components of each. A particular focus should be paid to Canadian projects, of which there are several examples. In an effort to be fair and balanced, we should include a section of "cautionary tales", stadium projects that went ridiculously overbudget or underutilized. Skydome, Olympic Stadium in Montreal, and Copps Colissuem come to mind. We can point out the differences between these awful projects and the one generally proposed here, and state the lessons that policymakers can take from these debacles.

While some kind of mock proposal and location idea would be a good selling point, spending time and resources coming up with detailed schematics and proposals would be inefficient. First, more details just mean more points of contention. It's better to convince listeners that A stadium would enrich their lives, rather than THIS stadium. Second, the best party to design the stadium is the party who must ultimately operate the stadium. To my knowledge, this excludes everyone in this forum. The final design and location should cater to whomever becomes the operator and anchor tenant, in this case likely a CFL franchise owner.

Essentially, while its important to do our research and base our assertions in fact and reality, its better to keep the stadium as a very fluid concept right now. You're more likely to garner support if you let people use their imaginations.

My logo is meant to sell the IDEA of a stadium, rather than any particular proposal.

The best outcome from this campaign would be a Request for Proposals issued by the municipal government stating that 1) Halifax is interested in contributing toward a multi-purpose stadium, 2) that the city has set aside $x for this purpose, 3) that the city would be willing to lobby the provincial and federal governments for further reasonable funds, 4) that the city expects a sizable portion of the cost to be provided by the private sector, and 5) the proposal must include a business plan to maxmize the use and enjoyment of the city's inhabitants.

This ensures that the final proposal comes from the private sector, who are the best at managing stadium builds and operations, and that investors are committed enough to the project to shoulder a sizable portion of the financial burden.

Just some thoughts moving forward.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

You raise some good points dmont.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by dmont

I've got to disagree about your proposed timetable.

I didn't think I had proposed a timetable, but okay!

Originally Posted by dmont

While some kind of mock proposal and location idea would be a good selling point, spending time and resources coming up with detailed schematics and proposals would be inefficient.

Excellent, we're in agreement.

Originally Posted by dmont

Second, the best party to design the stadium is the party who must ultimately operate the stadium. To my knowledge, this excludes everyone in this forum.

Excellent, we're still in agreement. I mentioned exactly what you just said a couple of times previously in this discussion..I'm starting to think you may have quoted me by mistake.

[-Harlington-]

i agree with dmot for the most part, that we on this fourm cannot provide a proper proposal to the government.
but as for rallying the public and politicians, we have talked with a councilor or two and i think the public is the next step there is intrest and we know that because of this fourm and facebook groups ect.
i think if we really want to get anywhere with this we first have to gain the public and city then once we all agree on a location and basic design we should be able to contact developers that might want to take this to the city.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Fenwick I don't know if you have visited the cfl site again but 1 poster there has suggested a few fund raising ideas as well as getting in touch with John Ryerson (head of the Atlantic Schooners group).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by dmont

I've got to disagree about your proposed timetable.

Right now, the goal should be to sell politicians and voters on the IDEA of a stadium, showing them the benefits that a stadium would mean for the city and that it can be financially feasible. The best way to do this would be to find similar stadium projects, both completed and proposed, and highlight the favourable components of each. A particular focus should be paid to Canadian projects, of which there are several examples. In an effort to be fair and balanced, we should include a section of "cautionary tales", stadium projects that went ridiculously overbudget or underutilized. Skydome, Olympic Stadium in Montreal, and Copps Colissuem come to mind. We can point out the differences between these awful projects and the one generally proposed here, and state the lessons that policymakers can take from these debacles.

While some kind of mock proposal and location idea would be a good selling point, spending time and resources coming up with detailed schematics and proposals would be inefficient. First, more details just mean more points of contention. It's better to convince listeners that A stadium would enrich their lives, rather than THIS stadium. Second, the best party to design the stadium is the party who must ultimately operate the stadium. To my knowledge, this excludes everyone in this forum. The final design and location should cater to whomever becomes the operator and anchor tenant, in this case likely a CFL franchise owner.

Essentially, while its important to do our research and base our assertions in fact and reality, its better to keep the stadium as a very fluid concept right now. You're more likely to garner support if you let people use their imaginations.

My logo is meant to sell the IDEA of a stadium, rather than any particular proposal.

The best outcome from this campaign would be a Request for Proposals issued by the municipal government stating that 1) Halifax is interested in contributing toward a multi-purpose stadium, 2) that the city has set aside $x for this purpose, 3) that the city would be willing to lobby the provincial and federal governments for further reasonable funds, 4) that the city expects a sizable portion of the cost to be provided by the private sector, and 5) the proposal must include a business plan to maximize the use and enjoyment of the city's inhabitants.

This ensures that the final proposal comes from the private sector, who are the best at managing stadium builds and operations, and that investors are committed enough to the project to shoulder a sizable portion of the financial burden.

Just some thoughts moving forward.

I agree with most of what you said. Especially with regards to the stadium design. I especially, do not want anyone to think that my model is an actual proposal. It is my conception of what I would like in a stadium such as compactness, ability to expand, covered stands, landscaping ... However, some others will want an extremely modern design. It is more a way to come up with ideas since I hope that others will do the same. Basically it is to drum up interest.

The only thing that I disagree with is the point about obtaining a request for proposals. Although it would be great to have private investment, there is a strong possibility that it won't come. This is a chicken and egg type of question; which comes first? Based on what I have seen in other medium size cities (and several large cities) it is the city and other levels of government that have to take the initiative and then the private money may come in the future. Often private investment comes in the form of naming rights for the stadium once a city decides to proceed. In this case the private investor is not involved in running the stadium.

I strongly agree with the point about doing research on other stadium designs and pointing out the strong points and weak points. This is something that I have started and I would like to write a report on it. Since you are majoring in economics, it would be good to get your opinion on it once it is done.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Can somebody please double-check the website out in Internet Explorer, it looks like it's cutting off part of the first page text. Displays fine in Firefox.

I just checked it and I didn't see this.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I've been thinking more about the roof situation.
I had mentioned above that I really liked the design of the roof on the proposed Halifax CWG stadium. I like the way it arches over the stands, and looks to be partially supported by those massive towers. Something like that could work very well with your proposed design fenwick, as your stands partially wrap around the ends. The playing surface would be uncovered, but you mentioned at one point the possibility of a temporary covering (fabric maybe) over the playing field, which could easily be installed or removed. Perhaps it could be partially suspended from those large support towers on the CWG stadium design? I'm thinking something similar to the Montreal Olympic Stadium roof, only y'know.. not a huge disaster.

Thank you hfx_chris for taking the time to think about this. I think that it is important, not because we are going to design the stadium, but if in the end the city (which I believe that it will be, and not a private developer) decides to consult with the public on the design and location then hopefully some or all of the people on this forum can be involved in the public consultation phase. By thinking about all of these different issues, location, cost, design - layout and even roof design, then when it is time we will be prepared with intelligent questions. The Halifax Metro Centre was not a private undertaking, it was constructed through the city and provincial government. Since Halifax does not currently have a CFL team, there isn't a big incentive for a private developer to invest money. Even with a team there aren't many privately funded stadiums in Canada or the USA

I am still working on the 3D model and have a roof that is basically unsupported which might be adequate for a conceptual model but still it would be better to think about the many different ways of supporting it. The giant masts as with the Commonwealth Games proposal will either have to be huge in diameter or have guy wires to support it. If they have guy wires to the ground for diagonal support then how much space will these require? Also, if the roof is suspended by cables from masts (like with the Alamodome) then will it have to be tied down with cables inside the stadium and if so where do these go? Since suspension cables only provide tension forces, they can't prevent the roof from lifting during a strong wind. Maybe they just rely on the weight of the roof itself to prevent it from lifting. These aren't negatives, just legitimate questions that I don't currently know the answer to. If anyone can tell me, I would really appreciate it.

I have also been thinking about the roof support, and even reading up on different types of trusses and supports. A lot of the soccer (British Football) stadiums use giant cantilever designs. It seems like almost 90% of the newer ones use this method. The older ones are much simpler in that they have columns in the interior of the stadium (but not many people will go for this idea since it will obstruct some seat sightlines). Even the cantilever designs require quite massive structures if the roof overhang is large (the roof for the 3D model would require quite large supports).

I think that the soccer stadiums in Europe tend to get overlooked being in North America. However, they have a similar maritime climate to Halifax with quite a bit of rain so I think that these are worth looking at. It seems that almost 100% of the major soccer stadiums have a large portion of the seats covered with a roof.

There is an interesting thread on another forum below that gives the relative cost per seats (stadium cost divided by the seat capacity). The inexpensive ones look quite impressive to me. The link to the thread is at (post #1):
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=46827483

I looked up some of the ones in the inexpensive price range and the links are below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadium_of_Light

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Stadium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC_Stadium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reebok_Stadium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DW_Stadium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:With_gates.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Stadium

This is where the 3D model currently stands. The actual physical model is in the works. If anyone thinks that I am nuts, then I am starting to agree.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MaritimeCFLFan

Fenwick I don't know if you have visited the cfl site again but 1 poster there has suggested a few fund raising ideas as well as getting in touch with John Ryerson (head of the Atlantic Schooners group).

I think this would be a great idea. I sent an email about a month ago but just got an automated response about buying Grey Cup tickets. Could you try contacting him? Maybe you will have better success.

[dmont]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The only thing that I disagree with is the point about obtaining a request for proposals. Although it would be great to have private investment, there is a strong possibility that it won't come. This is a chicken and egg type of question; which comes first? Based on what I have seen in other medium size cities (and several large cities) it is the city and other levels of government that have to take the initiative and then the private money may come in the future. Often private investment comes in the form of naming rights for the stadium once a city decides to proceed. In this case the private investor is not involved in running the stadium.

Not in a million years will a CFL-calibre stadium be built in 21st century Canada without both the leadership and sizable financial backing of private interests. Not without a major international games, and due to the events surrounding the 2014 Commonwealth Games bid, that avenue is a non-starter.

A suitable stadium would cost anywhere between $60M and $150M.

1) Winnipeg - All levels of government balk at contributing $80M toward a new stadium for the Blue Bombers. After two years of negotiations, a deal is signed where the province pays $20M. The feds contribute $15M, so long as these funds are NOT allocated toward the stadium, but instead supporting athletic facilities. The remainder must be provided by media mogul David Asper.

2) Hamilton - Even with a successful 2015 Pan American games bid, federal and provincial governments only agree to pay $40M toward a new multi-purpose facility. The city comes up with an unprecidented $60M, but still requires private sector partners to provide another $50M before proceeding.

3) Ottawa - Four prominant and wealthy local businessmen lead the charge to refurbish the city's CFL stadium. After two years of negotiations, they enter into partnership with the city of Ottawa, each proposed to contribute roughly equally to a $250M revitalization project.

4a) Montreal - Percival Molson Stadium requires 5k additional seats. The bill is tagged around $30M. After close to three years of negotiations, feds, province, city, and CFL owner Bob Wetenhall all pay equal shares.

4b) Montreal - Joey Saputo builds a $14M soccer stadium, entirely with private funds.

In summary, the project only becomes real once a private investor steps forward. Until then, its just pretty pictures.

Besides the realities, its only prudent. Copps colisseum in Hamilton is a monument to the fallacy of "build it and they will come". The lesson of this facility is that building a stadium before a franchise is assured is an incredible costly risk. Receive a conditional franchise first, or make the project contigent on securing an anchor franchise is a far better plan.

Furthermore, If a businessman of sufficient means feels he can't make a buck off of a stadium and professional sports franchise, even with a significant subsidy from the government, then the project would likely be a debacle if pursued independantly by the public sector. If the government issues an RFP, containing reasonable terms, and there is no interest from the private sector, then we should all take that as a big red flag.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I am still working on the 3D model and have a roof that is basically unsupported which might be adequate for a conceptual model but still it would be better to think about the many different ways of supporting it. The giant masts as with the Commonwealth Games proposal will either have to be huge in diameter or have guy wires to support it. If they have guy wires to the ground for diagonal support then how much space will these require? Also, if the roof is suspended by cables from masts (like with the Alamodome) then will it have to be tied down with cables inside the stadium and if so where do these go? Since suspension cables only provide tension forces, they can't prevent the roof from lifting during a strong wind. Maybe they just rely on the weight of the roof itself to prevent it from lifting. These aren't negatives, just legitimate questions that I don't currently know the answer to. If anyone can tell me, I would really appreciate it.

I have also been thinking about the roof support, and even reading up on different types of trusses and supports. A lot of the soccer (British Football) stadiums use giant cantilever designs. It seems like almost 90% of the newer ones use this method. The older ones are much simpler in that they have columns in the interior of the stadium (but not many people will go for this idea since it will obstruct some seat sightlines). Even the cantilever designs require quite massive structures if the roof overhang is large (the roof for the 3D model would require quite large supports).

I think that the soccer stadiums in Europe tend to get overlooked being in North America. However, they have a similar maritime climate to Halifax with quite a bit of rain so I think that these are worth looking at. It seems that almost 100% of the major soccer stadiums have a large portion of the seats covered with a roof.

This is where the 3D model currently stands. The actual physical model is in the works. If anyone thinks that I am nuts, then I am starting to agree.

If the stadium were to be built in Willow Park or any area with a residential component nearby then I think a more discrete design would be desirable. A cantilever roof would likely work better here as it would garner less attention. To go column and cable free would be more expensive but would yield a very efficient product. Perhaps a goal of raising 25% the cost would get the attention of government and private investors. If the total cost is $60 million could 10-$15 million be raised through fundraising and donations? It seems like a lot without offering a return through a share offering but a trust fund would be the catalyst. Fenwick your latest design looks very good and this style roof would fly under the radar. Also if columns were reqiured for this roof I think it may be acceptable. Maybe the columns could be located between the upper and lower sections so that only the upper section has some obstructed views. This would leave some overhang beyond the support columns if they were vertical. Any angle may obstruct more view?

[worldlyhaligonian]

I think an MLS team would amazing. Halifax FC.

Willow Park Memorial Stadium.

Its not as impossible as some think... if costs of the construction can be offset by revenue generating sources. If the thing is built LEAD, it might be sustainable for energy costs.

I am now convinced that a residential tower component would be crucial to this concept's viability. There could be joint facilities between the stadium and the residences. That would be very attractive. I believe it should be directly to the south of the field in the form of two small towers (10 stories each).

Can you make a rendering of that? Something like the towers at SMU, but maybe more modern.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I think an MLS team would amazing. Halifax FC.

Willow Park Memorial Stadium.

Its not as impossible as some think... if costs of the construction can be offset by revenue generating sources. If the thing is built LEAD, it might be sustainable for energy costs.

I am now convinced that a residential tower component would be crucial to this concept's viability. There could be joint facilities between the stadium and the residences. That would be very attractive. I believe it should be directly to the south of the field in the form of two small towers (10 stories each).

Can you make a rendering of that? Something like the towers at SMU, but maybe more modern.

This is something that I have started. Where the stairs currently are (to the south). Since I am not an architect my designs will tend to look like simple structures. I am just trying to represent a concept. I was planning to make the building fairly low for now (4-5 stories) and not indicate the use. The Morgan State building that you posted previously would be perfect for this area.

Since a ramp is required to access the playing field (for vehicles) this building would also have an entrance gate to the field which would have to be inclined from street level down to the playing field (since it has a sunken bowl). In the basement of this building there would also be space for the players changerooms.

I think that it would be great if Halifax could get an MLS team. It would be one more use for a stadium. It will be tough however, since Ottawa was turned down, even with a very nice stadium proposal.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

If the stadium were to be built in Willow Park or any area with a residential component nearby then I think a more discrete design would be desirable. A cantilever roof would likely work better here as it would garner less attention. To go column and cable free would be more expensive but would yield a very efficient product. Perhaps a goal of raising 25% the cost would get the attention of government and private investors. If the total cost is $60 million could 10-$15 million be raised through fundraising and donations? It seems like a lot without offering a return through a share offering but a trust fund would be the catalyst. Fenwick your latest design looks very good and this style roof would fly under the radar. Also if columns were reqiured for this roof I think it may be acceptable. Maybe the columns could be located between the upper and lower sections so that only the upper section has some obstructed views. This would leave some overhang beyond the support columns if they were vertical. Any angle may obstruct more view?

I agree completely; a trust fund is crucial to getting this stadium built. I had forgotten that this was our initial reason for doing all of this work on the 3D model and other promotion of this idea; in order to have the city or provincial corporation set up a secure trust fund for people to contribute to. This will not be a simple task, since a full time person might be required to manage it and send out donation receipts. So if the city does this, they will have to be convinced to hire someone (clerical position). Perhaps they could start with someone already employed and then if it is extremely successful they could hire someone full-time.

Also, money from naming rights might easily bring in another $10 million over 10 years. In very large cities, it brings in much more. However, this usually comes after construction has started, or at least once a commitment has been made. If there was the potential of Halifax getting a CFL team then the value for these naming rights should be worth this much money.

If a trust fund could raise $10 - 15 million then that would be very successful and I think that might convince the city to proceed. Essentially the trust fund is taking the place of a private investor. In addition to individual smaller donations, there could possibly be much larger contributions from wealthy Maritimers.

Initially, when I started the 3D model, I wanted to show how it could be built in stages as money becomes available. the initial stage could just be the bottom bowl, which is mainly excavation, leveling the excavated ground and building retaining walls and the lower bowl (which is like a terraced garden). Washrooms would also be required. Then temporary stands could be added around this lower bowl to increase the capacity. There would initially be no roof. However, the final stadium should be designed in advance so that when it is expanded with more permanent seats, it will not look like a piecemeal design and it will be designed with a roof in mind.

With regards to the cantilever roof, we think alike on this also. I think that the stadium should be fairly low profile. The cantilever supports are essentially like cranes. If there are fewer supports then they must be larger. If there are only 2 per side then they must be quite massive and there must be a large truss somehow integrated under (or on top of the roof). If there are more cantilever supports then they can be smaller in capacity and have less of a truss type support. There is going to be a happy medium, for example maybe 5-10 cantilevers per side which would reduce the size per cantilever support but increase the number. One example of a large cantilever design where the supports are integrated with the stadium stands is the Seattle, Washington Husky Stadium ( http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/Pac10/Washington/index.htm ). This Seattle stadium roof is actually larger (in terms of overhang) then what the 3D model design would require (it would require about 130 feet overhang depending on the incline). The 3D model stadium roof would require a long span of about 700 feet from one end to the other. If done with roof trusses alone, then the roof trusses would have to be quite large like in this link http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_g-J5F47Klrs/SK2ro3oOR_I/AAAAAAAABJM/r-KnN6wWndA/s400/06pano_roof1_sm.jpg (smaller than this since this is the support for a large retractable roof). However, as you pointed out if there are a few internal supports then this will decrease the size of the external supports or make the roof trusses smaller. This results in a more appealing stadium design from street level. The supports could be in the upper tier in the aisleways to minimize the number of obstructed seats. The internal supports would likely eliminate or decrease the size of external exterior supports.

There are many alternatives to the roof design. There is also a mast design (like in the Commonwealth Stadium design) that uses suspension cables. One truss type design that I like is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reebok_Stadium . However, some people might consider this to be very obtrusive. This was only 25 million British pounds back in 1997.

I think that it is important to think about these factors in advance so that we can give our opinions on an appealing design. In the end, the actual stadium will be designed by a structural engineer with many years of experience (or most likely a team of structural engineers, architects and construction trades people).

P.S. The stadium that I showed above doesn't have a roof support, so it looks more appealing than the actual design would be. Right now, I would like opinions on how this roof support should look. This is about the correct span for a roof truss system: http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/SeattleSeahawks/newindex.htm . As much as I like all of these designs, from a purely aesthetic point of view, an internal column system is appealing although it is a throw back design to a few decades ago (it is used in Fenway Park).

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think this would be a great idea. I sent an email about a month ago but just got an automated response about buying Grey Cup tickets. Could you try contacting him? Maybe you will have better success.

I tried as well but got the same response as you did.

[worldlyhaligonian]

This badboy (Amsterdam Ajax Stadium aka AreanA) was my subway stop while going to business school in Amsterdam.

http://www.stadiumguide.com/arena.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Arena

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

This badboy (Amsterdam Ajax Stadium aka AreanA) was my subway stop while going to business school in Amsterdam.

http://www.stadiumguide.com/arena.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Arena

Did you live in The Bijlmermeer? Interesting part of the city for sure - somewhat of a never-ending housing experiment.

[fenwick16]

I have added an updated image to the website as well as some detail to the design section. The updated section is at http://halifaxstadium.ca/designs. I have also attached an updated image below. Whoever has time to read the design section of the website, please give me your thoughts. This certainly doesn't look like a typical modern stadium but the seats would be close to the field and it would have the ability to have temporary seats added for big events. The stadium profile, because it is partly sunken is low as is the roof to maximize the protection from the rain. The roof extends almost right to the playing field for the same reason. Although the roof is relatively low, only the highest kicks would be lost sight off by only the people in the upper couple of rows which I think would be a small price to pay for comfort on rainy days (just my opinion). Maybe roof sections could be added on a temporary basis to temporarily convert this to a completely enclosed stadium at times for concerts and other special events (but not football because of height restrictions over the playing field) as long as there isn't high wind or snow in the forecast.

As for now this stadium is a fantasy, hopefully in the near future a stadium will become a reality. This may not be the design chosen but it has some of the characteristics (compactness, expandability ...) that are considered to be important by some of the people on this forum.

[cormiermax]

Amazing work on everything Fenwick, your doing a great job.

[Empire]

Excellent work fenwick. I like the compact design you have shown. A box truss like this would keep the roof height to a minimum. The Qwest roof is a good alternative. I was just looking at an aircraft hanger the other day and thought that roof truss system would be perfect for this stadium.

HALIFAX STADIUM
http://halifaxstadium.ca/