AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[Scottolini]

Glad to see you back, M1EK. I tried to have your back, but all evidence has now been wiped from history. It's very 1984 like, to be honest.

[Scott Wood]

Originally Posted by M1EK

The Domain and the area around it are looking to be something more like Buckhead in Atlanta rather than a second downtown. For those unfamiliar, Buckhead is full of tall expensive buildings with huge parking garages that are somewhat isolated from one another, with little pedestrian activity between them (surface parking on a lot of the in between space). Without rail transit that actually runs right down the middle rather than off to the side (an uncomfortably long walk away), that's all it could be anyways.

Running light rail up Burnet seems like it would be a good way to shape the non-Domain redevelopment of the North Burnet area, and maybe the eastern part of the Domain. The best way to get what you describe is to do what we've been doing -- upzone suburban land without any increase in transit, even buses.

[breathesgelatin]

After reading M1EK's post, I guess I want to clarify my earlier remarks. I wasn't so much saying that light rail up Burnet is a viable option, but that light rail up N. Lamar was even more ridiculous. But yeah, I'm extremely doubtful that it can ever happen.

I work at the Domain now and for the most part I agree with what M1EK says about it. I find the Domain on the whole a pleasant place to work, but it's marred by excessive parking lots. I was just wondering today, for example, how many people would really walk from the Macy's (where I work) to the Dillards or the new movie theatre. I also agree that to be truly successful, it needs some transit going directly through the development (not on the edges) and there isn't any now, and there isn't any currently planned.

I also agree that Red Line and Urban Rail on the same ROW is NOT going to happen. I didn't say that categorically before I will now.

I'm also contemplating a move from Austin if I can't find a better-paying job soon...

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Scott Wood

Running light rail up Burnet seems like it would be a good way to shape the non-Domain redevelopment of the North Burnet area, and maybe the eastern part of the Domain. The best way to get what you describe is to do what we've been doing -- upzone suburban land without any increase in transit, even buses.

In order to justify taking a lane away for transit running in the street where it can only run at an average speed of 15-20 mph (with stops), you need downtown-like density, not midrises.

[wwmiv]

Downtown like density doesn't include mid-rises? If you think that a downtown/urban neighborhood must be completely composed of high-rises then everything in Austin is automatically excluded.

Even our downtown is composed of primarily short to mid-rise buildings. Light rail/commuter rail can be a viable option if everything is from 5 to 30 stories tall (which is what the zoning for the plan requires).

[PartyLine]

Originally Posted by M1EK

The Domain and the area around it are looking to be something more like Buckhead in Atlanta rather than a second downtown. For those unfamiliar, Buckhead is full of tall expensive buildings with huge parking garages that are somewhat isolated from one another, with little pedestrian activity between them (surface parking on a lot of the in between space). Without rail transit that actually runs right down the middle rather than off to the side (an uncomfortably long walk away), that's all it could be anyways.

Yeah that's kinda what I see it becomming like Buckhead in Altanta which is nice it's kinda like a downtown i've never been to Atlanta so I don't know i've just seen pics of Buckhead and it looks nice.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckhead_(Atlanta)


Here's another development in Atlanta that's kinda like the Domain called Atlantic Station


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Station

[austlar1]

Well, Buckhead probably currently has more than twice as much office space as downtown Austin, about one and a half times the number of hotel rooms, millions of square feet of retail in two major malls, and a large number of high rise apartment towers. The old downtown part of Buckhead also has a lot of nightlife. The Lenox Sq. area, which is the most densely developed, is served pretty well by Marta rail. A significant number of people commute by rail to work in the office buildings and to shop at Lenox Square and Phipps Plaza. There is a Marta station at Lenox Sq. on the Yellow Line and a second station on the Red Line to the east of Lenox Sq. which bring riders down from some outer Perimeter suburbs and connects to Midtown and downtown.

We would be very lucky to have Buckhead like density in the Domain area, and we would be even luckier to have the kind of rail service that Buckhead enjoys. Rail ridership has been disappointing, but in the long run the fact that it is there pretty much guarantees that Buckhead will thrive as densification continues in the Atlanta core. I am a former Buckhead resident by the way and know the turf pretty well.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Downtown like density doesn't include mid-rises? If you think that a downtown/urban neighborhood must be completely composed of high-rises then everything in Austin is automatically excluded.

Even our downtown is composed of primarily short to mid-rise buildings. Light rail/commuter rail can be a viable option if everything is from 5 to 30 stories tall (which is what the zoning for the plan requires).

The zoning for the plan requires that, but if you think the first two phases of the Domain have any relevance, there's going to be big spaces between the buildings - and they're going to be oriented to their own parking rather than to the pedestrian environment - which is the problem with Buckhead.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Well, Buckhead probably currently has more than twice as much office space as downtown Austin, [...]

Not really relevant. I'm using Buckhead as an example of really big buildings but still suburban in mindset and orientation - so obviously I think they have a lot of square feet there.

I drove around and through Buckhead quite a bit a few years ago (sister-in-laws' wedding) and saw zero people out walking. Not a single one. Even the Domain appeared to have more pedestrian life.

[Scott Wood]

Originally Posted by M1EK

In order to justify taking a lane away for transit running in the street where it can only run at an average speed of 15-20 mph (with stops), you need downtown-like density, not midrises.

Why does a lane need to be taken (other than the center turning lane)? There looks like plenty of room to widen Burnet to accommodate the rail while maintaining the existing number of through car lanes.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Not really relevant. I'm using Buckhead as an example of really big buildings but still suburban in mindset and orientation - so obviously I think they have a lot of square feet there.

I drove around and through Buckhead quite a bit a few years ago (sister-in-laws' wedding) and saw zero people out walking. Not a single one. Even the Domain appeared to have more pedestrian life.

Miami is another place like that. Tons of residential highrises, mostly condos, but none are even urban in character since most don't have street level retail and don't encourage pedestrian activity. Some of these condo highrises can sometimes be almost like highrise suburbs. The best thing I can compare them to is like Circle C in Austin. Nice big homes that are good quality of course, but very detached from everything else.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Scott Wood

Why does a lane need to be taken (other than the center turning lane)? There looks like plenty of room to widen Burnet to accommodate the rail while maintaining the existing number of through car lanes.

You need a bit less than 2 lanes worth of space for 2 tracks of rail. There's enough space north of 183 most of the way for that, I admit, but south of 183 there's not - not even just from 183 to Anderson. Anderson also doesn't have any room to widen, nor do any other prospective transition corridors from Lamar to Burnet.

After that, if you have that reserved guideway, you're still talking 15-20 mph average speed in those suburban stretches - again, not fast enough to generate ridership figures that will excite anybody - UNLESS you're in a corridor with density high enough that driving is already very difficult (not true in that case).

[PartyLine]

What will be nice is when they get the 9 acre park in there then you'll see more people out and about up there hopfully. And when all the hotels are built that will bring more activity in there the Aloft is open and it looks like it won't be too long before the Westin opens.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by PartyLine

What will be nice is when they get the 9 acre park in there then you'll see more people out and about up there hopfully. And when all the hotels are built that will bring more activity in there the Aloft is open and it looks like it won't be too long before the Westin opens.

None of that addresses the poor quality of the built environment there (although, again, still much better than Mueller on these metrics). Just look at the huge surface parking lot between the two phases of the retail - as breathesgelatin has pointed out, there's almost no chance anybody will walk from one to the other - which is the hallmark of suburban medium-density crap (driving from one parking garage to another).

[Spaceman]

Walk the Buckhead, get a bullet in the head ........ Scary city that Atl...

[PartyLine]

Originally Posted by M1EK

None of that addresses the poor quality of the built environment there (although, again, still much better than Mueller on these metrics). Just look at the huge surface parking lot between the two phases of the retail - as breathesgelatin has pointed out, there's almost no chance anybody will walk from one to the other - which is the hallmark of suburban medium-density crap (driving from one parking garage to another).

I don't see how else they could have arranged the buildings though you probably still would have to walk between the phases unless it was an inclosed mall like Barton Creek or the Galleria it's the same as the Hill Country Galleria out in bee Caves isn't it? I haven't been to Bee Caves lately so I don't remember how the Galleria is. I guess they could have build a garage infront of Macy's like they did Neiman Marcus.

[Scott Wood]

Originally Posted by M1EK

You need a bit less than 2 lanes worth of space for 2 tracks of rail. There's enough space north of 183 most of the way for that, I admit, but south of 183 there's not - not even just from 183 to Anderson. Anderson also doesn't have any room to widen, nor do any other prospective transition corridors from Lamar to Burnet.

I'm having a hard time seeing anything of significance on Google aerial maps crowding in Burnet between 183 and Anderson -- even most of the parking lots are set back with driveways. Further south on Burnet looks pretty open as well. What am I missing?

Is there any reduction in lane width possible?

In any case, it doesn't seem any less likely than scrapping the red line and going back to the 2000 plan, at this point. :-)

Originally Posted by M1EK

After that, if you have that reserved guideway, you're still talking 15-20 mph average speed in those suburban stretches - again, not fast enough to generate ridership figures that will excite anybody - UNLESS you're in a corridor with density high enough that driving is already very difficult (not true in that case).

That's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem -- who's going to develop high densities, especially with reduced parking, in the absence of either good transit or high land values? This is an area that the city is trying to promote higher density in; it shouldn't skimp on the services that would enable that.

Could the speed be increased with a handful of bridges over particularly busy intersections (or spots where sufficient right-of-way can't be obtained), and reducing the number of stops in areas that are neither dense nor targetted for increased density?

Perhaps a grade-separated continuation farther north (maybe in the median of MoPac?), at least to Howard Station, maybe Round Rock if they can be convinced to contribute some funding?

What is your alternative that doesn't involve a time machine, or the very unlikely abandonment of the red line at this point, or downplaying the issue of relocating freight from the red line tracks?

[PartyLine]

They did fit tracks in downtown Houston in the median and those streets are pretty narrow especially now here's a link to a picture from wikipedia showing the tracks running down the street in Houston

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Do...HoustonTX0.JPG

[PartyLine]

From the KVUE website

http://www.kvue.com/video/featured-v...-80298652.html

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Not really relevant. I'm using Buckhead as an example of really big buildings but still suburban in mindset and orientation - so obviously I think they have a lot of square feet there.

I drove around and through Buckhead quite a bit a few years ago (sister-in-laws' wedding) and saw zero people out walking. Not a single one. Even the Domain appeared to have more pedestrian life.

Buckhead transitioned from being a purely suburban built environment into something that is more hybrid and decidedly more urban. There are other similar neighborhoods around the country, with the most obvious being Tysons Corner outside of DC and the Galleria area of Houston. I spent childhood summers in Atlanta during the 1950s and early 60s and remember when Lenox Square opened as a one story outdoor mall. There were no highrises at all. Buckhead was just a place with very big and beautiful homes. Forty years or more later and central Buckhead is a much, much more densely developed place. Give it another 20 or 30 years, and I suspect that it will more closely resemble a traditional cityscape.

If Atlanta continues to densify, Buckhead becomes (and really already is) the prime retail neighborhood. If driving becomes less practical or desirable, Marta will deliver shoppers and workers to the area in ever greater numbers. Eventually, the white suburban counties around Atlanta are going to have to sign on to Marta. The system will expand outside of Fulton and Dekalb Counties. Buckhead will be one of the two main centers of urban life in Atlanta circa 2025 or 2030, and there will be plenty of real street life.

Buckhead actually is not much larger in area than downtown Austin, and it already has so much more development than downtown Austin. When the rest of it fills in and gets redeveloped or remodeled, check it out. I guess I take the long view about these things, especially with regards to transit. I think that if you build something half way rational (and Marta is more than half way rational), the ridership and development will ultimately follow.

I kind of doubt that the Domain is going to morph into a Buckhead, but thinking about a time twenty or 30 years out, it would probably have a much brighter and more organic future if there was an ambitious push to get some well designed rail project out to and through the place and on to more distant points.