Salt Lake Transit News Thread

[urbanboy]

i disagree. Perhaps the system won't get your support, but that doesn't mean the system wouldn't get a lot of support from others. I think it would be plenty feasible.

[i-215]

Nah. Flying is still too cheap. Even Greyhound is just as expensive. I'd imagine the ticket on an HSR train would be almost double that of flying.

It's not like Europe, or the eastern US where cities are 100-200 miles apart. The nearest cities are more like 500-700 miles away.

[shakman]

Originally Posted by i-215

Nah. Flying is still too cheap. Even Greyhound is just as expensive. I'd imagine the ticket on an HSR train would be almost double that of flying.

It's not like Europe, or the eastern US where cities are 100-200 miles apart. The nearest cities are more like 500-700 miles away.

Amtrak's Acela is a semi-HSR however from Washington to NYC is only a hundred or so dollars one-way during peak hours. Of course there are many options every hour, hence keeping cost down with various modes of transportation up and down the East Coast. Driving from DC to NYC could cost more than Greyhound thanks to so many rediculous tolls. (Tunnels in Baltimore - your choice between two, Tydings Bridge, Delaware Turnpike, Delaware Memorial Bridge, NJ Turnpike and then your option of the Hudson River crossings from NJ to NYC. Oh, and don't forget about gas from being stuck in traffic half the ride.

There is also talk (just talk) of HSR on the East Coast. I hope the cost would be reasonable or competition would end service rather quickly.

Hopefully as the population between Ogden and Provo contiues to increase, more options hence reasonable prices will be more numerous. I think with NSA's data center, it would be a benefit towards such. Curious: Are there currently various options up and down the I-15 corridor?

[electricron]

Originally Posted by shakman

Amtrak's Acela is a semi-HSR however from Washington to NYC is only a hundred or so dollars one-way during peak hours.

Fares for NE Corridor
NYC to BOS = 218 miles = $155 (Acela) $107 (Regional)
NYC to DC= 232 miles = $177 (Acela) $124 (Regional)
BOS to DC = 450 miles = $248 (Acela) $168 (regional)
Note: Cheapest prices available for day train today or tomorrow.

Fares for long distance train
SLC to DEN = 537 miles ($128 for Zephyr)
SLC to LV = 422 miles (assume same fare as Zephyr)
SLC to REN = 520 miles ($58 for Zephyr)

If high speed rail corridors were built out in the mountain west, expect to see fares increase to NE corridor fares for similar track miles, to around $248 between Salt Lake City and Denver.

Neither of these routes have large cities along these route, unlike the NE corridor. Because the miles are so much larger, the population density so small, it's difficult to see a healthy HSR system in the mountain west states. Especially not after raising the train fares to match NE corridor fares.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by electricron

Fares for NE Corridor
NYC to BOS = 218 miles = $155 (Acela) $107 (Regional)
NYC to DC= 232 miles = $177 (Acela) $124 (Regional)
BOS to DC = 450 miles = $248 (Acela) $168 (regional)
Note: Cheapest prices available for day train today or tomorrow.

Fares for long distance train
SLC to DEN = 537 miles ($128 for Zephyr)
SLC to LV = 422 miles (assume same fare as Zephyr)
SLC to REN = 520 miles ($58 for Zephyr)

I'm pretty sure that SLC to LV is not a train but a bus and that —.

[i-215]

I actually took Amtrak's old SLC to L.A. (via Las Vegas) back in '91 before they quit. It was a great "do this once" kind of trip. For the most part, quite horrible, having to sleep on a trip, and take a 15.5 hour ride for something that normally only takes 11 hours by car.

Greyhound is worse, and it's still more expensive than driving, especially if you have two, three, or four people in your car as I usually do.

[UTPlanner]

I think the idea of high speed rail in the Mountain West is definitely an interesting idea and worth taking the time to have a proper study conducted. I do think though that just because a rail system may not be profitable it shouldn't be considered "not feasible". How much profit did the interstate system in the US bring into anybody's wallets over the last few decades? Roads are obviously heavily subsidized above and beyond what the gas tax produces. I see no problem in creating an alternative transportation link between the cities that is subsidized above and beyond what a fare may produce. Many European high speed rail lines are not profitable but they are a valuable link in their transportation network.

Here is a link to an interesting essay on high speed rail travel. The author's bias is obvious but he makes some good points.

http://www.trainweb.org/moksrail/advocacy/resources/essays/coston.htm

Just a few thoughts.

[i-215]

It's worth a feasibility study. It's probably worth actually buying the corridor for.

But it's like UTA buying old rail corridor in Utah County. They probably won't actually run LRT through American Fork for 30 years, but it's good to have the corridor preserved.

That's my thought on HSR. Preserve the ROW. Wait to build.




Of course, the actual time it will take to construct these HSR corridors, in the end we may be talking about the same time frame.

[WeST]

While it is true that roads/cars are heavily subsidized, that shouldn't be justification to build whatever rail project is proposed. There needs to be metrics, which there mostly are, which can judge these projects. I see very little value in building HSR in the United States. There probably are some areas where it makes sense, but airlines and cars are doing a fine job transporting people over long distances. I support LRT because it fills a gap that is missing in our local transit systems, but our interstate transport doesn't have those same problems. Mass transit dollars are scarce and it is a waste to pursue building a nationwide network. There are plenty of local mass transit needs around the country.

[TonyAnderson]

This was posted in the transportation forum.

First up--light rail

Data here:
http://www.apta.com/resources/statis...rship_APTA.pdf

Press release here:
http://www.apta.com/mediacenter/pres...Ridership.aspx

(Note: no weekday estimate was given for New Jersey light rail, but going on the numbers they did offer [see link] it appears Newark would come in at about #7 with 65,000 weekday riders)

City - Weekday light rail ridership

1. Boston - 237,700
2. San Francisco - 186,200
3. Los Angeles - 142,100
4. Portland - 112,400
5. Philadelphia - 94,800
6. San Diego - 93,100
7. Dallas - 63,200
8. Denver - 61,800
9. St. Louis - 57,600
10. Sacramento - 56,800

11. Salt Lake City - 45,200
12. Baltimore - 34,600
13. Phoenix - 33,500
14. San Jose - 33,200
15. Minneapolis - 32,300
16. Houston - 31,100
17. Pittsburgh - 25,200
18. Buffalo - 22,300
19. Charlotte - 20,000
20. Seattle - 14,500

Amazing considering there's still 3-4 more lines in the works.

[scottharding]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see that figure double once the three new lines open.
Does this include Front Runner?

[Makid]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see that figure double once the three new lines open.
Does this include Front Runner?

My understanding is that the numbers are just for the LRT lines. Front Runner is a heavy rail line so it would be calculated differently.


Once the Trax lines are completed and Front Runner south is completed, I can see us topping the 100k daily LRT passanger line. To think that is approximately 5 years from now.

Hopefully this can also increase the TOD's being built to further increase ridership.

[esirhgih]

The full report can be seen here:

http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2009_q3_ridership_APTA.pdf

The numbers above do not include FrontRunner, which averaged 4,800 daily riders in the 3rd quarter - down 44% from the same period last year.

[WASDEN]

Wow thats surprising how high Pheonix is on the list for light rail ridership, and with just a single new line.

[TonyAnderson]

FrontRunner is in a category of 'Commuter Rails' distinguishable from 'Heavy Rail'. There's not that many pure commuter rails like FrontRunner.

With the vast size of Phoenix, both in population and square mileage, it makes sense to see their rail doing well.

I think it's interesting how close Salt Lake is to Denver, considering they possess a more established line and 2.5x the metro population.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

I think it's interesting how close Salt Lake is to Denver, considering they possess a more established line and 2.5x the metro population.

Meh, 5 years isn't THAT much more established, but they do have 5 lines, 36 stations and 39 miles of track whereas SLC has 2 lines, 28 stations and 19 miles of track (so far).

[delts145]

I haven't been paying allot of attention to Denver's or Phoenix's systems as far as current construction. I know Salt Lake's will be greatly expanded in the near future, but is there a substantial amount of current expansion being undertaken in either Phoenix or Denver?

Also, to the the 2.5 times larger metro remark with Denver. Obviously we're not counting the million and a quarter to the north and south as a conjoined metro. Does Denver's light rail currently reach out to corresponding cities at a distance, such as Provo or Ogden metros?

[Makid]

Denver is currently expanding their system with the Fastracks program. Overall, they are ahead of the current Frontlines expansions happening in Utah. We are getting 70 miles of rail and Denver is getting 90 or so miles of rail.

My understanding though is that Utah will be finished 5 years ahead of Denver though.

These numbers do not reflect any streetcar plans, just rail plans that have tax revenue funding.

[delts145]

Thanks Makid, I was just going to look it up, but you saved me the time.

[UTPlanner]

The FasTracks Project was a very ambitious project, unfortunately due to lower than expected sales tax revenues, the project will not be completely as soon as was envisioned at the onset. It also doesn't hurt that it was also originally planned at $ 4.6 billion but has balooned to $ 6.2 billion dollars.

They will actually be adding 122 miles of new light rail and commuter rail track. (http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/main_26) It's still a good project and should definitely make a huge improvement to the transportation system in Denver.