Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

You've lost me 100% if you're suggesting that due diligence will not be done with regards to a stadium. Why wouldn't it be done? It's always done.

It is always done? By who? They? The other person?

What one does is assess through professional analysis and consultation desired locations and then you fight for them backed up by mountains of data.

My point is that there already is mountains of data. Most likely this analysis was done with the Metro Centre and the new proposed convention centre. That is why the Metro Centre was built in downtown Halifax and not in Dartmouth.

I've neither said that a new stadium should be close to the universities or far from them. If you read my posts, what I have said is that all locations need to be considered on their merits so that the positives and negatives of different locations can be determined.

You should go back to page 5 of this thread. You had me convinced at that point.

How am I possibly supposed to answer that at this juncture? No feasibility studies have been done. No economic assessments. No public polls have been conducted. We're years away from being able to answer that question. Anyone who thinks they do know is either completely over their head and doesn't understand the complexities of this issue or is sitting on millions of dollars of research that they've conducted and been able to keep secret from absolutely everyone.

This all sounds like a lot of double talk. This is why a stadium never gets built.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Having it close to SMU may also encourage SMU to contribute funds and vocal support.

I don't really have much to say in this discussion, but I would be cautious about putting too much focus on SMU. A stadium goes far beyond SMUs requirements, and while it would be great for their support, financially they probably have very little to contribute. Someone please correct if I'm wrong, but I've been told that SMU is struggling more than any other university in the province.

Also, when considering other sites, too much emphasis is being put on existing public transit. I am certain that wherever a stadium is built, public transit routes would be added to service it - at the very least, during regular events. So while a place on the peninsula may be ideal, I also think other sites in Dartmouth could be fantastic - specifically Shannon Park. And with current, although very preliminary plans, to develop a dense, green, ACCESSIBLE prototype community on this site, maybe this is place to be thinking about. I think there is more potential, more opportunities and more benefits for the region here than probably anywhere else.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

[B][SIZE="5"]I had the impression that there wasn't anyone in council who wanted a stadium built. I now think that I am wrong based on articles that I have read on the internet. I think that there are a number of councilors who realize the importance of this for Halifax and it is important to organize a strong group who will support these councilors. Unfortunately, there are probably some councilors who have no interest in it and will therefore oppose against it.

I guess we have to send the stadium letter to all of the councillors. We could split the task?

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

A few thoughts...

...If you're really serious about trying to start a movement here, go to the people. Politicians will back it too if they think it will help get them back in office.

...A professional looking website is a good start. halifaxstadium.ca seems to be available. Just a thought...

...Poll and research before you make any public suggestions. Right now a lot of assumptions are being made both ways. Find out what people will and won't accept. Changing tack too often or compromising too much makes the argument in favour of a stadium weaker. Start with a strong proposal that the general population will back.

...Facts and figures will help sell the case, too. Do people really want a downtown stadium? Would driving to Dartmouth Crossing, Bayers Lake, or some other area be out of the question? How about the universities? What do they think? Would they be willing to make use of a city stadium? What would their conditions be? What are other cities in Halifax's size range doing? Are there any other examples of 'grass roots' movements getting a stadium built? Are there any local architects or developers that have had experience with building a project like this?

The city needs to appoint a task force to do an assessment. The members could be volunteers like HRM by Design or perhaps a university could do a feasibility study?

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

However, the large concerts (Rolling Stones, McCartney and KISS) were held on the Commons and were very successful. So give the organizers credit, including the politicians involved, they knew that the Commons would be a good location.

I think you should re-read what I said. I already agreed with you that the Common would be great as far as location goes. And I never took any credit away from the organizers of those concerts, so I'm not sure why you said that exactly.

Seriously though, this has been used for a Museum of Natural History, a rugby field and clubhouse, and a stable for horses. I wouldn't even consider this to be the Commons.

Irrelevant. It is part of the Common, and I can pretty much guarantee the Friends of the Common group (or whatever they're called) will stop at nothing to deny that location.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It is always done? By who? They? The other person?

By whoever is building it, and whoever they hire to do the studies. Fenwick, I'm glad you're so excited about this, but you're taking it on as if we, the posters on this forum, are building it ourselves. We are not building it. We are not selecting a site. We are not doing the studies. We can certainly suggest sites, but we do not make the decision on where it goes.

My point is that there already is mountains of data. Most likely this analysis was done with the Metro Centre and the new proposed convention centre. That is why the Metro Centre was built in downtown Halifax and not in Dartmouth.

Something tells me that a few things may have changed since the 1970s. Plus there's a huge difference between a 10,000 seat arena and a 25,000 seat stadium. So whatever data may have been accumulated from any studies done for the Metro Centre in the 1970s are completely irrelevant today.

This all sounds like a lot of double talk. This is why a stadium never gets built.

What? You're suggesting the reason a stadium never got built in the past was because...well, why exactly? Do you honestly believe a stadium is going to get built without a feasability study, assessments, economic studies, or opinion polls?

Also...can you please stop screwing around with font sizes. It's very annoying to look at. If you want to emphasize something, use bold...not this.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by isaidso

How am I possibly supposed to answer that at this juncture? No feasibility studies have been done. No economic assessments. No public polls have been conducted. We're years away from being able to answer that question. Anyone who thinks they do know is either completely over their head and doesn't understand the complexities of this issue or is sitting on millions of dollars of research that they've conducted and been able to keep secret from absolutely everyone.

I honestly don't know what you're reading. I'm rude for pointing out the process under which these things are bound by? If you want to get the ball rolling, it's important to understand how it works, is it not? It's also not a good idea to bite someone's head off for pointing it out.

Thanks for bringing reason back into this discussion! Some people here seem to forget that a process must be followed if a decision to build a stadium is ever made.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Also, when considering other sites, too much emphasis is being put on existing public transit. I am certain that wherever a stadium is built, public transit routes would be added to service it - at the very least, during regular events. So while a place on the peninsula may be ideal, I also think other sites in Dartmouth could be fantastic - specifically Shannon Park. And with current, although very preliminary plans, to develop a dense, green, ACCESSIBLE prototype community on this site, maybe this is place to be thinking about. I think there is more potential, more opportunities and more benefits for the region here than probably anywhere else.

Exactly. The Woodside suggestion was actually not bad, although that area is really lacking as far as local anemities goes. Maybe near the Russel Lake West development, there could be a few sports bars in there. But if a location like that were chosen, HRM would have to beef up ferry service for those events. And if that means having two or three ferries operating on a load and go basis, I don't see why that would be too unreasonable. Especially since they want to bring the total number of harbour ferries to 5.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

By whoever is building it, and whoever they hire to do the studies. Fenwick, I'm glad you're so excited about this, but you're taking it on as if we, the posters on this forum, are building it ourselves. We are not building it. We are not selecting a site. We are not doing the studies. We can certainly suggest sites, but we do not make the decision on where it goes.

I agree 100% It will most likely be the municipal and provincial government that will actually get it built. The only other alternate would be if a private group came along which is not a very strong possibility. The best that we can do is become involved and show interest and support to the ones making the decisions. There is also the chance of making a financial contribution through a trust fund. If 1000 - 2000 people contributed $1000 each then that would be $1 - $2 million dollars.This has been done with the farmers market and the Citadel High Theater. This might not seem like a large amount but it might be enough to start the detailed design drawings or land acquisition. Or the assessment study that you mentioned.

Also...can you please stop screwing around with font sizes. It's very annoying to look at. If you want to emphasize something, use bold...not this.

ok. It has been changed.

Irrelevant. It is part of the Common, and I can pretty much guarantee the Friends of the Common group (or whatever they're called) will stop at nothing to deny that location.

It seems that you have already given in to these groups. Don't you think that others have the right to express their opinions without worrying about being attacked by a few vocal opponents (meaning the Friends of the Commons)?

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It seems that you have already given in to these groups. Don't you think that others have the right to express their opinions without worrying about being attacked by a few vocal opponents (meaning the Friends of the Commons)?

Of course I do. But I'm also realistic, in that I know the Friends of the Common will oppose the Wanderers Grounds, as will other groups. Just as I know the Heritage Trust would oppose it if you suggested demolishing Historic Properties and building it there.
In no way am I saying I agree with them (now referring to the Common again, not my Historic Properties example above) or that I give in to them, I'm just saying reality is reality, there will be a huge amount of opposition to that site.
Give your head a shake, you're being way too confrontational here, and we're all towards a common goal.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by q12

Here was our site and stadium that never happened.



Note if you remove the north and south end zone seating you have about a 35,000 seat stadium.

Does anyone know how far the assessment of this site went? I know that something like $14 million was budgeted towards the bid preparation. It would be interesting to know if any actual design drawings were prepared. Are there many bus routes to this location?

I found this report on the internet. It is not from the games committee and is somewhat negative:
http://www.gamesmonitor.org.uk/files/Halifax_Commonwealth_Games_Bid.pdf

[someone123]

I mostly agree with the report. Their big claim is that the benefits of the games are mostly limited to the physical infrastructure built (not vague "publicity" or tax and spend temporary jobs etc.) and, in particular, whatever locals get out of that infrastructure afterward.

If the city needs a stadium it can build one for $100M or whatever; it doesn't need to spend a billion dollars hosting games. The stadium should also be tailored to the long-term sustainable uses (CFL, universities, public events), not a one week show.

[Dmajackson]

Since Bedford or Sackville haven't had a stance in this conversation yet here's a couple of sites with good transportation connections I can think of;

Downsview Mall (former Wal-Mart location): It is metres away from Exit 2 on Highway 101 and about a half-hour drive from downtown. There is bus service, two terminals and a MetroLink bus literally next door. The MetroLink can get people from downtown to Sackville in under 30min. The location is already being planned for recreational facilities and because of the slope from Sackville Drive it could have a sunken bowl feel to it. The immediate area is mainly commercial and parkland with relatively few neighbourhoods adajacent to the lot. Downsview is already considered Sackville's town centre and is filled with stores, restaurants, and movie theatres making it an attractive location to build recreation facilities.

Bedford Commons: There is already a master plan for the area but with the developers desiring it to become a recreational hub for the Northwest region a stadium would fit in. It's located right off of the Bi-Hi (Exit 4C) with a new highway planned to connect to Burnside eventually. There are downsides to this site for example adjacent residential community (albeit a small one), lack of public transportation, remoteness, and lack of atrractions nearby (no restaurants, theatres, ect).

Since I am horrible with Google Maps can someone tech savy test these two sites to see if a stadium could be built?

[-Harlington-]

I made one for bayers lake, besides anywhere around downtown which im starting to think is less and less likely, i thought this would be a great location with the 102 and 103 right there its obviously good highway access and there may be only 2 buses that go near there the 52 runs constantly and comes trough pretty much halifax and dartmouth anyway with the slightly nearby lacewood terminal and clayton park beachville and fairview(a good 40-50000 people) all within about 40 mins to an hour walking distance, it can be a good location without downtown with room to spare, and walking over through bayers lake after a game which has an ideal amount of sports bars and restraunts anyway.
anyways thats my idea, by the way the green arrow near the top is a supposed historic site called the bayers lake mystery walls which if theres not enogh oppisition would make a nice historic park, also the same for the pound near the 102 103 interchange, im not that good at the whole paint thing but its the thought that counts

[Empire]

A site that seems to get overlooked a lot is Exibition Park. It already has a 2000 seat venue, parking and ample space to develop. Transit could be improved upon and there is a new overpass planned from Bayers Lake over the 103 to Ragged Lake. Plenty of room for tailgaiting in the parking lot or something could be set up inside the main arena before games. The washroom facilities could be expanded in the main arena building and restaurants shops-temporary vendors could be added. This main arena building could be linked to the stadium so it would be a great extension to the stadium.

EXIBITION PARK

Link http://www.exhibitionpark.com/en/home/default.aspx

[fenwick16]

I have been thinking about this stadium project a great deal over the past couple of months to think of ways that we can be proactive and help see that it will become a reality.

There is actually a great variety of professionals from urban planners, engineers, business majors, construction contractors and newspaper writers on this forum. I just want to point this out since at times it is easy to believe that we don't have the ability to make a difference. However, I believe that it is just the opposite. Since people on this forum go by user-names we really don't know the background of most of the others on this forum.

We can make a real difference by not only contributing money to a trust fund but by also contributing our time. It was pointed out previously, that there are various steps to go through before a stadium can go forward. These include public consultations, feasibility studies, transportation, environmental, etc. These steps are usually conducted through professional services that tend to be very expensive and are done by professionals like the ones on this forum.

I think that most of us know that stadiums are usually not money making operations but that they contribute to the quality of life of a community. What I would like to know is how many are willing to contribute their time towards making this project a reality? If we can get this project to the request for proposals stage based on contributing our time then this saves the HRM from spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on feasibilty studies (this is no exaggeration). People on this thread who are involved in the media can also make this suggestion to a wider number of people in the HRM and outside the HRM. Those who feel that they don't have a professional service to contribute can make a big contribution by polling friends and family to see where most people would like to see a stadium built and what is important in the design. For example: bench style seating or folding seats (based on cost and maintenance), covered stands or completely open, sunken bowl or not, central location or suburban location; we need to make up a more detailed list. This is in fact the public consultation stage (including the comments on this thread and other websites). Right now there are many questions that we don't have answers to, as an example: will the DND lands north of the Halifax Forum be available in the near future? This is investigative type reporting that can be conducted by people in the media and by people with connections.

I have a feeling that some people will mock me for suggesting this and might even say that I am delusional in thinking that we can make a difference. However, I believe that this is a defeatist type attitude. Not only are there various professionals on this forum who can contribute their time we can do it out of a real passion for making a difference in the HRM community as opposed to simply doing it to make money. The fact that we all keep coming back to this thread and this forum shows this desire to make a difference in the community.

I am afraid that some people will say that this is a major project that can not be done by volunteers. However, volunteers can be professionals who are contributing their time. Once it gets to the construction phase then yes the city will have to hire a construction company to build the stadium. Even at this stage, there might be construction companies that are willing to give the city a break on their standard pricing. In return these companies will get media exposure and do something for their community.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

A site that seems to get overlooked a lot is Exibition Park. It already has a 2000 seat venue, parking and ample space to develop. Transit could be improved upon and there is a new overpass planned from Bayers Lake over the 103 to Ragged Lake. Plenty of room for tailgaiting in the parking lot or something could be set up inside the main arena before games. The washroom facilities could be expanded in the main arena building and restaurants shops-temporary vendors could be added. This main arena building could be linked to the stadium so it would be a great extension to the stadium.

EXIBITION PARK

Link http://www.exhibitionpark.com/en/home/default.aspx

I think that this is a very good site. When I check the legend on Maquest it looks like it is only about 6 - 7 km from Dalhousie and SMU. If there are sufficient washroom facilities already in the exhibition arena then the stadium is mainly just seats. So not only is the location good, it could be possible to build a 25,000 - 30,000 seat stadium for $25 million to $30 million (maybe less if some are temporary). This could even be a sunken bowl to keep the wall heights to a minimum (is this land rocky and difficult to excavate or not?)

My first choice (for what it is worth) is still the Wanderers Grounds but if this is not available then this would be my preferred site. I had mentioned this site previously (very early on in this thread) but the consensus at the time was that it couldn't handle the traffic. When will the new overpass be built?

The new Mainland North Commons is another good site. As these areas grow then the transit should become increasing better.

How busy is the West End Mall and Halifax Shopping Mall. Is there any chance of it be redeveloped like the Penhorn Mall in order to reduce the number of stores? If there was room in this area then it would be a great site also with all the parking and bus routes plus it is only 3 - 4 km from the universities.

[hfx_chris]

The Prospect Road would have to be widened at least to Exhibition Park to accomidate that.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The new Mainland North Commons is another good site. As these areas grow then the transit should become increasing better.

How busy is the West End Mall and Halifax Shopping Mall. Is there any chance of it be redeveloped like the Penhorn Mall in order to reduce the number of stores? If there was room in this area then it would be a great site also with all the parking and bus routes plus it is only 3 - 4 km from the universities.

Again, I really think this consideration of bus routes will only cause you to overlook sites with loads of potential. Buses can go anywhere. If we were talking about a link to a metro, tram, etc, that would be different. For this reason, I do think possible ferry connections should be considered - as this is our only public transit infrastructure, with lots of room for expansion, and a willingness from the city to expand it in the future.

I also this Exhibition Park is not such a good spot. It is too remote. While it doesn't need to be dropped into the middle of the commons, it shouldn't be somewhere without potential to act as a catalyst for other growth. In the end, as these projects are expensive and lose money, they are often used as part of a bigger development project. And building it somewhere like Exhibition Park, or Dartmouth Crossing, will benefit no one, and may actually only turn out to be a burden on the city.

For these reasons I think Dartmouth is by far the best choice at this stage. Woodside area is ok, with trails from Dartmouth (think of high-income Kings Wharf residents, within walking distance or easy bus ride(even for those usually not willing to take a bus), ferry connections from Halifax, highway connections, potential for some high-density development around it, a view of Halifax - making it still seem very connected to the city. And for all these same reasons - Shannon Park is also ideal (with much potential for a new ferry terminal) - Both sites have current highway access and are easily accessible from outlying areas such as bedford, fall river, sackville, etc.

[Keith P.]

Random thoughts:
- Fenwick16, while I can understand your interest in a volunteer effort, it is highly unlikely. When you are committing public funds in the order of $50M-$100M, there is an expectation that professional consultants and designers will be used to spend that money wisely. Doing it with a volunteer force will get you into the mess that many private clubs get into, where you have the only person who is willing to take on a task leading the club down a path that they never wanted in the first place.

- Exhibition Park is a viable second-tier site IMO. However, forget about making much use of the existing facilities there. They are horrible and in reality the entire place should be demolished and something new put there.

- Any Dartmouth site is going to be compromised by that location. I do not believe any site that relies on ferries will be feasible -- imagine bobbing along on the Woodside ferry for 30 minutes each way, just so you can transfer to other public transit at the other end. For that reason Shannon is preferable to Woodside, because it at least is close to the MacKay bridge, but neither is ideal.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Of course I do. But I'm also realistic, in that I know the Friends of the Common will oppose the Wanderers Grounds, as will other groups. Just as I know the Heritage Trust would oppose it if you suggested demolishing Historic Properties and building it there.
In no way am I saying I agree with them (now referring to the Common again, not my Historic Properties example above) or that I give in to them, I'm just saying reality is reality, there will be a huge amount of opposition to that site.
Give your head a shake, you're being way too confrontational here, and we're all towards a common goal.

I actually really strongly feel that the commons are the wrong place to put this anyway. I am in NO way siding with heritage wingnuts etc, but I do think that we need to protect large swaths of urban greenspace, if for no other reason than it is a huge quality of life issue. I love large structures (hence why I am on here), but I don't think every available greenspace needs to be filled with them. The wanders grounds etc are wonderful summer spaces for those who live in this area.

Let me put it this way, Central Park is a large open space with easy walking and transportation access and with loads of space that could be converted to parking lots. By that logic, Yankee Stadium should have been plunked down on the Sheep Meadow. I mean hey, there is already the Tavern on the Green and a Zoo there.

I think there are a number of true possible sites around the city, and we certainly should be fairly debating the merit of them. But paving the wanders grounds to put up a parking lot (to paraphrase) just isn't an idea I can support.