Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[SpongeG]

news says the trolly busses had problems this morning - the wires were frozen and many busses couldn't run -2 and 85% humidty caused them to ice up

[nname]

I wonder if this would also be problematic for LRT or streetcar wire in Vancouver...

[Mac Write]

Originally Posted by nname

I wonder if this would also be problematic for LRT or streetcar wire in Vancouver...

Most likely.

[officedweller]

Portland sometimes has problems with ice build up on the LRT wires.

[DKaz]

Trolleys don't seem to be too much of a problem in Edmonton's -25C weather, is it because of the lower humidity?

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Trolleys don't seem to be too much of a problem in Edmonton's -25C weather, is it because of the lower humidity?

Yes.

[metroXpress]

Perhaps we should run empty buses at night to avoid the ice from freezing on the wires

[Canadian Mind]

Why empty buses? Might as well run a 24/7 service if you are gonna do that.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by metroXpress

Perhaps we should run empty buses at night to avoid the ice from freezing on the wires

They do that, actually. They also run trucks along the trolley routes to spray the lines with deicer. Last night there was a problem with one of the deicer trucks.

[zivan56]

They also borrow the "triesel" bus from TRAMS (a former trolley converted to a diesel with poles still attached) to clear the lines.
Btw, there was a 60ft trolley which kept stopping in the middle of the street beside bus stops (4 way flashers)...this is not a safe way to let people off or treat other road users since you have no idea what they are doing.

[Metro-One]

Most of Europe has such weather (and large parts of Asia) in the winter, often colder then -2 also with humidity, why does it seem to be such a big problem here?

[zivan56]

^^ The new design of trolley pole "shoes" no longer has an ice cutter. This was done to ensure less de-wiring IIRC.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Most of Europe has such weather (and large parts of Asia) in the winter, often colder then -2 also with humidity, why does it seem to be such a big problem here?

Who says it isnt a problem over there? Its not exactly like it is the kind of big international news that would make it all the way over here.

[SpongeG]

its icy out there tonight - my car had to get scraped after sitting outsite all afternoon - its chilly out there - they say it could snow on friday

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by zivan56

^^ The new design of trolley pole "shoes" no longer has an ice cutter. This was done to ensure less de-wiring IIRC.

Is this a part that can be added for the 3-4 winter months and removed for the rest of the time?

[BCPhil]

In Europe, most trams use Pantograph connections.

Here, the trolley buses use poles. The poles run along the wires, and if there are large chunks of ice on the wires they can be thrown off.

The Pantograph doesn't require a "guided" connection as the wire is always overtop of the tram, so if there is an ice chunk the Pantograph just bounces off and reconnects to the wire. It's much less mechanical and tolerable of incidents.

We have to use poles on our buses because the rubber tires don't allow the vehicles to ground on the road. A tram can use a Pantograph and single overhead wire because the metal wheels ground the train.

Streetcars in Vancouver, like LRT in Portland, won't have the same level of problems as the bus due to the use of Pantographs and single overhead wires.

If you want to see how tolerable Pantograph is to untypical situation, watch the video of the TGV breaking the speed record.

[zivan56]

^^ Trams and frost/ice cause lots of traction issues (lots of sanding required on hilly parts).

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is this a part that can be added for the 3-4 winter months and removed for the rest of the time?

Well the shoe itself can be replaced. However, another problem is the fact that the poles automatically retract once power loss it detected (it assumes dewiring has occured).

The old trolleys could bring down all the wires at an intersection and cause serious damage/injury if they didn't stop before they hooked any wires once they came off/pole flew up. This was supposed to solve this, but it ended up causing the issue we are seeing today.

So, to sum up:
new trolley shoes remove less ice -> contact frequently lost with wire -> new automatically retracting poles activates (due to percieving that dewiring occured) -> poles go down fully and no power going to the bus -> driver has to get out and put them back up -> start the cycle again.
If we had the old ones, it would just so slow/create tons of sparks unless we have an ice storm or something causing a huge amount of ice buildup.

[Zassk]

^ Hmm.. was this safety tradeoff worth the inevitable loss in service every time we hit sub-zero temperatures? How often did the old buses catastrophically "de-wire" intersections? I've never seen it happen myself.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

^ Hmm.. was this safety tradeoff worth the inevitable loss in service every time we hit sub-zero temperatures? How often did the old buses catastrophically "de-wire" intersections? I've never seen it happen myself.

It sounds like de-icing trucks were the "answer" to this problem, but one of them had a problem the other night and wasn't able to de-ice the lines completely.

What other solutions are out there? Can we send a little heat along the wires?

[Spork]

Originally Posted by Zassk

^ Hmm.. was this safety tradeoff worth the inevitable loss in service every time we hit sub-zero temperatures? How often did the old buses catastrophically "de-wire" intersections? I've never seen it happen myself.

I was once driving through Granville @ Broadway heading southbound, and a LIVE trolley wire came down and put a massive dent in the side of my friend's car. If it was a foot higher, it would have gone through the window, and likely killed my friend.