Halifax Stadium Discussion

[hfx_chris]

I think if you seriously think building a stadium on the Wanderers Grounds, part of the Common lands, will actually go ahead...well, you're nuts.
Willow Park may be a great location, but face it, the land is owned by DND, and as far as I know they've shown no interest in moving out of that location. The Wanderers Grounds are part of the Common, and although that too may be a great location for various reasons, the opposition to that would be enormous. People literally shit their pants for a weekend concert, I would hate to see the reaction to a stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I think if you seriously think building a stadium on the Wanderers Grounds, part of the Common lands, will actually go ahead...well, you're nuts.
Willow Park may be a great location, but face it, the land is owned by DND, and as far as I know they've shown no interest in moving out of that location. The Wanderers Grounds are part of the Common, and although that too may be a great location for various reasons, the opposition to that would be enormous. People literally shit their pants for a weekend concert, I would hate to see the reaction to a stadium.

However, the large concerts (Rolling Stones, McCartney and KISS) held on the Commons and were very successful. So give the organizers credit, including the politicians involved, they knew that the Commons would be a good location.

Seriously though, this has been used for a Museum of Natural History, a rugby field and clubhouse, and a stable for horses. I wouldn't even consider this to be the Commons. It is not the Public Gardens and numerous buildings throughout Halifax have been built on what used to be the Commons. I am not saying that the Commons should be developed, just turn a football field into a football field for thousands of people instead of a few.

How about a vote on this forum? How many want a stadium on the Wanderers Lands and how many want to keep the Wanderers Grounds as it is?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Two hundred and forty mast corbels were positioned around the top of the attic. They originally supported a retractable awning, known as the velarium, that kept the sun and rain off spectators. This consisted of a canvas-covered, net-like structure made of ropes, with a hole in the center.[3] It covered two-thirds of the arena, and sloped down towards the center to catch the wind and provide a breeze for the audience. Sailors, specially enlisted from the Roman naval headquarters at Misenum and housed in the nearby Castra Misenatium, were used to work the velarium.[23]
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colosseum )


(source http://www.basestructures.com/pfimages/rds_dublin_543.pdf )

You could get sailors from Her Majesty's Canadian Navy at CFB Halifax to man the velarium at the new Halifax Stadium too.

[brettinhalifax]

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[brettinhalifax]

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[MaritimeCFLFan]

Hi all, I have been following along for a couple weeks now and I also agree Halifax needs a stadium. I am a CFL fan and would buy season tickets if we ever got a team. I wanted to throw my 2 cents in about what would be required in my opinion as far as a stadium is concerned. Any stadium would need to consist of 25,000 permanent seats minimum with potential to add another 5,000 to 10,000 permanent seats if demand warrants it. It also must be capable of being expanded temporarily to 45,000 to 50,000 seats for a Grey Cup. The Grey Cup is a money maker for any owner that hosts this game and therefore any potential owner of a new CFL franchise in Halifax will insist on a stadium that can host the BIG GAME. I would think the only way this thing could ever happen in Halifax is if there was a coming together of a local private owner(s) (with deep pockets), SMU and possibly Dalhousie and of course all 3 levels of government. The stadium would need to be a multi-purpose facility (we need to see it used as much as possible).

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Hi Brett,

Glad to see you came over to lend your ideas. I posted on the CFL site asking for people that could offer any support and ideas to aid the efforts on this forum.

[fenwick16]

I started off believing that a good location would be Dartmouth Crossings because there would be little opposition and that the land would be inexpensive. However, Dartmouth Crossings would not be convenient for SMU students, so a Dartmouth location will rule out use by SMU. There would also be less use by Dalhousie University students, Most university students don't own vehicles so you are losing one of the biggest segments of the population. The risk of a Dartmouth location is that you might win the battle but lose the war. If a venue is picked that is not popular with the people using the facility then it is domed to fail even if built. I personally believe that it would be best to try for a peninsula location and then pick a suburban location as a last resort (or simply not at all if it will not succeed).

I believe that the Halifax Metro Centre is successful because it is downtown. On the other hand, how popular would the Metro Centre be at a Dartmouth Crossings location or some other Dartmouth location? It might just be like a larger version of the Dartmouth Sportsplex.

In my opinion, if the Wanderers Grounds location or DND Willow Park cannot be obtained then it would be best to try to have SMU stadium expanded. Just from following major league baseball and football for many years, the idea of having a suburban location has been found not to work. So it would be best to make a good business case for the peninsula location and fight for it.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

As to a Trust, well I don't think that concept is applicable at this stage of the stadium effort. We'll have to trust that the directors of the NPO would act in the best interests of getting a stadium built, but I don't think it would meet the legal or tax definition of a Trust.

It would be a very good idea to set up a trust fund once we get to the point of raising funds. Even if it didn't qualify as a tax deductible donation, it would be set up as a trust fund so that the money will be legally tied to the stadium with directors overseeing the funds who are well known in the community. This is to make sure that it will be successful in raising the millions of dollars required.

The best thing to do right now is for pro-stadium people to get to know each other and build up personal relationships. Then start organizing letter writing campaigns, regular letters to the editor, getting free publicity and networking. If the HRM Stadium movement starts to get a little traction, then register as a NPO.

That sounds good. Just get started.

Why spend the first 6 months drawing org charts and doing paperwork?

Why not do it at the same time? The importance of setting up an organization is to have common goals. I hope that this will succeed.

[fenwick16]

This is something that I found on the facebook group ( http://is-is.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2248041900 )

Posted on 31 July 2007 ( http://is-is.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2248041900&topic=3224 ). I can't link to it (maybe it is too old an article?). Based on this article it sounds like Councilor Sue Uteck would be a very good councilor to speak to.

Facebook group pushing for Halifax stadium

1,400 members want better venue for sports, entertainment

By DEBORAH MENSAH-BONSU

Craving the excitement of a football kickoff or hearing a favourite song played live, a Facebook group with over 1,400 members is lobbying to have a stadium built in Halifax.

"Halifax is the flagship city in the Maritimes," said Kurtis Tithecott, a member of the group and a rugby player for the University of King’s College. "You could draw so many people because it’s the only major city for such a large area. So really, you’re building a stadium for the Maritimes, not just Halifax."

The 19-year-old said that along with major concerts, the stadium could attract sports such as professional soccer to the city.

Derrick Gillissie, another group member, said there is no way a sports team can come to Halifax now because of the lack of a suitable venue.

"A bigger stadium would give the city the potential to grow to a level of a city like Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal," said the 21-year-old Dalhousie student, who moved to Halifax from Vancouver several years ago.

"I’ve seen what it’s like to be at these games," he said.

"Every year, there’s 30,000 students down here for school. I know so many that would go."

Judging from the diversity of the site’s members, who hail from across Canada and vary in age, it’s not just students who would like to see a stadium built. The group’s web page features a link to a petition.

"There’s been talk of a stadium for years," said Deputy Mayor Sue Uteck. "It would allow us to attract international events to the city."

A stadium was part of the discussions for the 2014 Commonwealth Games, but even people who were not in favour of Halifax hosting the Games thought a stadium could revitalize parts of Dartmouth, she said.

Ms. Uteck said the city is hoping to host the International Children’s Games in 2012. The 2007 Games were held in June in Reykjavík, Iceland, a city about the size of Halifax. More than 20,000 fans jammed Reykjavik’s stadium for a soccer game in 2004.

But even though Ms. Uteck said a stadium in Halifax would "add to the world class of the city," a reasonable financial plan is still needed to put it in place, she said.

"You don’t build a stadium for the sake of being able to say you have one," she said. "The possibilities could be endless . . . if it’s the right fit and the right size, with the right business plan."

[someone123]

I dislike the "we can't do X because the NIMBYs will have a field day" line. It's defeatist and untrue. Most of the time the NIMBYs are whiners who do very little and are sometimes enabled by politicians. Usually things go forward anyway and are successful. Potential complaining is not a good reason to put a stadium out in the suburbs.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

I disagree that the Wanderer's Grounds is a part of the Commons. To me it has always been that ugly block opposite the Gardens with the crackhouse looking building and the greenhouses. I doubt many people think of it as part of the Commons because it is cut off from the "real" Commons by Citadel High, the museum, and the Hospital.

Regardless of whether you're right or I am about the Wanderer's Grounds being a part of the Commons, opponents of a stadium will portray the Wanderer's Grounds as the forgotten jewel of the Commons. Not to mention that it is across the street from an actual jewel (the Gardens)

It is just my opinion that the Wanderer's Grounds is probably the most likely and most suitable location for a stadium on the peninsula since it isn't part of a residential neighbourhood, the land has a sporting/football history and it is an eyesore.

So please fight for this location. Get as many people as possible to start lobbying for this location to be used for a low rise (sunken bowl) stadium. Let's all start fighting for the best location so that it will be a successful venue, a host to a successful CFL team, and also increase the attendance at SMU games.

Building on the "real" Commons will never happen in a million years and there's no way a stadium could be built down by SMU or Dal. The neighbourhoods are too residential.

Agreed, let's forget about the skate-park location.

In order to get significant government funding, the stadium has to be built in time for the 2015 FIFA Women's World Cup (Canada was in the running the 2011 WWC, and it came down to Germany and us, but it went to them) With that in mind, any location that would face years of NIMBY's is losing location. So It can't go on the peninsula or downtown Dartmouth like somebody suggested pages ago.

Any DND land would take years to get out of the DND and into the hands of HRM. It might also take years on top of that for environmental cleanup that is sometimes required for Federal Gov't and ex-DND lands. So IMO, DND lands (including Shannon Park) are also out.

I personally know that I sometimes make assumptions that turn out to be wrong. It would be a good idea to see if these statements are actually correct. Maybe the DND lands will be available, and maybe some councilors have already discussed using the Wanderers Grounds and need the support of residents of the HRM. If you assume that it is not possible then councilors might think that you are speaking as an opponent and not a proponent of the Wanderers Grounds site. I think that it was ISAIDSO who initially suggested the Wanderers Grounds, and the more that I think of it the more that I think that this is the best location.

So that leaves industrial lands, and that generally means Bayer's Lake, Burnside or Woodside. IMO Woodside has two advantages that blow Burnside and Bayer's Lake out of the water. The ferry terminal and potential views of downtown Halifax. If you can't put the stadium downtown, I vote for putting it a ferry ride away from downtown. Running all 3 (5 planned in the future) ferries, a couple thousand people could take the ferry to the game.

I don't want to sound disagreeable, but a view of Halifax might not be enough to make this succeed (although I like the view). I am very worried about depending on the ferries. You might have to move 10,000 people on the ferries and buses so this might not be convenient. Perhaps the other 20,000 will come by car. Still you could be losing thousands of spectators per event.

Land was for sale at the Woodside Industrial Park recently for around $200,000 per acre. For a stadium and parking lots, you'd need about 15 acres for a stadium. So the land for a Woodside stadium would only be around $3 million.

A location with better public transit and close to universities won't need as many parking spots. And if the Wanderers Grounds are used then people have thousands of parking spaces downtown. People can walk around the Citadel to get to the stadium. Another problem is that there are not very many restaurants and hotel rooms in the Woodside area so you are missing out on an opportunity to help businesses in the downtown area. Downtown business owners (I don't know the actual association name) is another group to get the support of.

I think in the end that members of this group, the facebook group and the local media can have an important role in encouraging the building of a stadium. It is important to contact the right people in business and government to actually get it built. This will include letting these people know which site is truly the desired site instead of picking a site that seems easy to obtain. It would be a good idea to talk to people involved with selecting the Metro Centre site (there are probably still some around). I had the impression that there wasn't anyone in council who wanted a stadium built. I now think that I am wrong based on articles that I have read on the internet. I think that there are a number of councilors who realize the importance of this for Halifax and it is important to organize a strong group who will support these councilors. Unfortunately, there are probably some councilors who have no interest in it and will therefore oppose against it.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by someone123

I dislike the "we can't do X because the NIMBYs will have a field day" line. It's defeatist and untrue. Most of the time the NIMBYs are whiners who do very little and are sometimes enabled by politicians. Usually things go forward anyway and are successful. Potential complaining is not a good reason to put a stadium out in the suburbs.

I like this way of thinking. Could it be that we are all being intimidated by a few very vocal opponents who don't really speak for the majority?

[isaidso]

There will always be people who complain loudly. Even if there are hundreds of them, that leaves another 390,000 Haligonians who aren't complaining about it. You don't get what you want unless you fight for it. If a stadium on the peninsula is deemed ideal, that's what we should fight for.

What's the worst that can happen?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

There will always be people who complain loudly. Even if there are hundreds of them, that leaves another 390,000 Haligonians who aren't complaining about it. You don't get what you want unless you fight for it. If a stadium on the peninsula is deemed ideal, that's what we should fight for.

What's the worst that can happen?

Personally, I think that the worst that could happen would be to have a venue that will not succeed and be a drain on HRM tax revenues. For that reason, I really think that the stadium must be useful for several purposes and be utilized for the maximum number of events per year. This is why I believe that the stadium should be in the best location or simply not be built at all. Having it close to SMU may also encourage SMU to contribute funds and vocal support.

I feel at times that I am hogging this thread with all my posts however I really look forward to the day when I can attend an event at the new Halifax Stadium with 30,000 others. I hope that this stadium will be on the Halifax peninsula where I can see the city as opposed to being out in the suburbs.

[Phalanx]

A few thoughts...

...If you're really serious about trying to start a movement here, go to the people. Politicians will back it too if they think it will help get them back in office.

...A professional looking website is a good start. halifaxstadium.ca seems to be available. Just a thought...

...Poll and research before you make any public suggestions. Right now a lot of assumptions are being made both ways. Find out what people will and won't accept. Changing tack too often or compromising too much makes the argument in favour of a stadium weaker. Start with a strong proposal that the general population will back.

...Facts and figures will help sell the case, too. Do people really want a downtown stadium? Would driving to Dartmouth Crossing, Bayers Lake, or some other area be out of the question? How about the universities? What do they think? Would they be willing to make use of a city stadium? What would their conditions be? What are other cities in Halifax's size range doing? Are there any other examples of 'grass roots' movements getting a stadium built? Are there any local architects or developers that have had experience with building a project like this?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Personally, I think that the worst that could happen would be to have a venue that will not succeed and be a drain on HRM tax revenues. For that reason, I really think that the stadium must be useful for several purposes and be utilized for the maximum number of events per year. This is why I believe that the stadium should be in the best location or simply not be built at all. Having it close to SMU may also encourage SMU to contribute funds and vocal support.

I feel at times that I am hogging this thread with all my posts however I really look forward to the day when I can attend an event at the new Halifax Stadium with 30,000 others. I hope that this stadium will be on the Halifax peninsula where I can see the city as opposed to being out in the suburbs.

Why are you assuming that feasibility, transportation, environmental, economic, etc. studies wouldn't be done before fighting for a specific location/design/etc? Obviously all due diligence would have to be done first. There is a process to these things.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Why are you assuming that feasibility, transportation, environmental, economic, etc. studies wouldn't be done before fighting for a specific location/design/etc? Obviously all due diligence would have to be done first. There is a process to these things.

Exactly. It sounds like this is what I am saying. However, where is the due diligence? Obviously, it is not being done with regards to a stadium. Unless you believe that due diligence means sticking a stadium far from the universities which you previously said that it should be close to. So what is your point, that I am nuts for being swayed by your previous comments? Isn't this somewhat inconsistent? What is being said on this thread is that the stadium should be built based on not getting NIMBYs angered. Isn't this what you are reading. Or did you even bother to read all the previous posts?

Most stadiums in Canada were build decades ago in Central locations. Many are associated with universities. My point is that a stadium in a less than ideal location will not benefit the Halifax area.

Who is doing the feasibility, transportation, environmental, economic, etc. studies? Are you saying that this should be the goal of a private group or the role of government? The only way that people can fight for it, is if they are involved. To be honest I have no idea what your point of view is.

Where do you think that a stadium should be built? Having been a student yourself, do you honestly believe that students at SMU and Dalhousie will regularly attend events in, for example, Dartmouth Crossings. Maybe you feel that this segment of the population is not important. However, I strongly disagree. Or maybe you think that the Halifax Transit system (which doesn't have a subway like Toronto, which you previously pointed out) can not handle the traffic to the peninsula. Again I disagree.

In short, your comment above was rude and misdirected since I agree with most of your posts. I am just confused by you first wanting a stadium associated with the universities but then saying that the Halifax highway and transit system can't handle it. So please, where should it be built?

[fenwick16]

I would really like to see a stadium built in a central location in Halifax. I think that councilors and businessmen in Halifax already know that the best location would be in a central location close to the universities, hotels, restaurants and highest population density. This is why they staged the large concerts on the Commons. They could have put these concerts out in the Mainland Commons, Enfield (near the motorway), any park in Dartmouth, etc. These all have good highway access. So I believe that the HRM councilors probably just don't want to fight the opponents.

A central location has proven to be a good location for the Metro Centre and other venues throughout North America. Just look at where most new stadiums and arenas are built. I really believe that the Wanderers Grounds is an ideal location. So why go with a secondary location?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Exactly. It sounds like this is what I am saying. However, where is the due diligence? Obviously, it is not being done with regards to a stadium. Unless you believe that due diligence means sticking a stadium far from the universities which you previously said that it should be close to. So what is your point, that I am nuts for being swayed by your previous comments? Isn't this somewhat inconsistent? What is being said on this thread is that the stadium should be built based on not getting NIMBYs angered. Isn't this what you are reading. Or did you even bother to read all the previous posts?

You've lost me 100% if you're suggesting that due diligence will not be done with regards to a stadium. Why wouldn't it be done? It's always done.

I've neither said that a new stadium should be close to the universities or far from them. If you read my posts, what I have said is that all locations need to be considered on their merits so that the positives and negatives of different locations can be determined.

Did I read all previous posts? All 417? No, I haven't, nor is it necessary to do so. Not angering NIMBYs is the only passage I was responding to which also seems to be what you summarized it as. I don't think it's realistic to expect that NIMBYs are going to be in agreement over site preference for a stadium. I've never encountered a situation where they weren't angry. The views of residents are aired during the process of selecting an appropriate site, then the municipality either approves the site, or it doesn't.

If you expect to get a stadium site approved without angering NIMBYs, you should also be aware that the site that you'll end up with will be out in the middle of nowhere. Having NIMBYs dictate where it will go because you don't want to upset them isn't a very wise strategy. They're going to be angry. That's why they're called NIMBYs!

What one does is assess through professional analysis and consultation desired locations and then you fight for them backed up by mountains of data.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Who is doing the feasibility, transportation, environmental, economic, etc. studies? Are you saying that this should be the goal of a private group or the role of government? The only way that people can fight for it, is if they are involved. To be honest I have no idea what your point of view is.

This is almost always a collaboration between the various levels of government, private groups, and hired professionals. Public hearings are also usually part of the process. Of course one can only fight for something if one is involved. Will you not be involved? I assumed you would be involved at the public hearings if you're not part of one of the other groups I listed above. What regarding my point of view are you unclear on? I don't understand your line of questioning at all.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Where do you think that a stadium should be built?

How am I possibly supposed to answer that at this juncture? No feasibility studies have been done. No economic assessments. No public polls have been conducted. We're years away from being able to answer that question. Anyone who thinks they do know is either completely over their head and doesn't understand the complexities of this issue or is sitting on millions of dollars of research that they've conducted and been able to keep secret from absolutely everyone.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

In short, your comment above was rude and misdirected since I agree with most of your posts.

I honestly don't know what you're reading. I'm rude for pointing out the process under which these things are bound by? If you want to get the ball rolling, it's important to understand how it works, is it not? It's also not a good idea to bite someone's head off for pointing it out.

We're not even out of the gate, and I'm being grilled by someone who supposedly wants the same end result. Sorry, but I find your last exchange with me completely absurd and uncalled for. I seem to be wasting my time.