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  #421  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2009, 9:03 PM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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EDIT: haha, loses it's effect when at the top of the page

But I bet the CoV and Translink will be counting traffic. I'm sure there is nothing more they would like to do than say they did good and had a reduction in cars and increase in Transit riders during the games.
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  #422  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2009, 9:09 PM
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But that would just be a no-brainer.

"More people took transit during the most International event we have ever hosted, with 200,000 extra people, and when we shutdown half the roads..."

Though, knowing politicians, they will somehow use that...
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  #423  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2009, 10:22 PM
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I was at the lions game the other night (ugh, that was a waste) and walking from the train station to BC Place is very interesting, for it gives you a chance to see how integrated the surrounding structures (BC Place, GM Place, the Costco, several condo towers such as spectrum, and even skytrain) are built into and with the viaducts. So much so that the western 200m or so west of BC place Stadium almost completely disappear into the local street fabric at the viaduct level.

Also, while on my way inside BC place stadium I could not help notice a couple police cars and an ambulance using the viaduct to get out of dowtown...

Also noticed how very busy Expo Boulevard was with pedestrian traffic, I would hate to see more vehicle traffic (and especially emergency vehicle traffic) funneled through that street during such events.
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  #424  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2009, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
....Somebody mentioned the need for routes for electric cars. Electric cars are not the answer; even if we have them, we've removed pollution but still have congestion. That won't go away if we cater to the car, even if the car is electric.
So on busy downtown sidewalks we should remove pedestrians, to alleviate pedestrian "congestion"? Contrary to some true believers, vehicles are not evil.
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  #425  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2009, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
I was at the lions game the other night (ugh, that was a waste) and walking from the train station to BC Place is very interesting, for it gives you a chance to see how integrated the surrounding structures (BC Place, GM Place, the Costco, several condo towers such as spectrum, and even skytrain) are built into and with the viaducts. So much so that the western 200m or so west of BC place Stadium almost completely disappear into the local street fabric at the viaduct level.

Also, while on my way inside BC place stadium I could not help notice a couple police cars and an ambulance using the viaduct to get out of dowtown...

Also noticed how very busy Expo Boulevard was with pedestrian traffic, I would hate to see more vehicle traffic (and especially emergency vehicle traffic) funneled through that street during such events.
The ambulance comment is a good one. What happens when the new hospital is built in False Creek Flats? Won't it need the viaduct to arrive quickly?
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  #426  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2009, 1:32 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
So on busy downtown sidewalks we should remove pedestrians, to alleviate pedestrian "congestion"? Contrary to some true believers, vehicles are not evil.
Vehicles only kill over a million people a year, including children and young people in the prime of their life. They also transform perfectly nice people into raging self-centred maniacs totally unconcerned about the safety of other people. Their overuse is also depriving future generations of the right to use oil and other resources. If anything else did all this, would you call it evil?
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  #427  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2009, 4:25 AM
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Originally Posted by racc View Post
Vehicles only kill over a million people a year
That number is meaningless without context. Relative to the overwhelming number of person-hours that those vehicles were used in each year, the death rate could be considered very low.

Or, to put it another way - if those people were not in vehicles, but were on bicycles or doing some other activity for all of the same hours, would less people have died? The answer is not automatically "yes". Certainly many important and accepted vocations have higher death rates per person-hour than vehicles.
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  #428  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2009, 5:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racc View Post
Vehicles only kill over a million people a year, including children and young people in the prime of their life. They also transform perfectly nice people into raging self-centred maniacs totally unconcerned about the safety of other people. Their overuse is also depriving future generations of the right to use oil and other resources. If anything else did all this, would you call it evil?
(1850)

Trains only kill over a thousand people a year, including children and young people in the prime of their life. They also transform perfectly nice people into self raging centred maniacs totally unconcerned about the safety of those around the tracks. Their overuse is depriving future generations of the right to use coal and other resources.

Rah rah, down with the steam locomotive.

(/1850)
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  #429  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2009, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by racc View Post
Vehicles only kill over a million people a year, including children and young people in the prime of their life. They also transform perfectly nice people into raging self-centred maniacs totally unconcerned about the safety of other people. Their overuse is also depriving future generations of the right to use oil and other resources. If anything else did all this, would you call it evil?
You don't win friends with hyperbole.
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  #430  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2009, 3:07 AM
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It must be sad not to be able to afford a car.
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  #431  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2009, 3:23 AM
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I've lately desisted from propounding my own beliefs on this forum (except, perhaps, indirectly, as they relate to preferences I have for specific projects), as I've quickly noticed they aren't winning any converts, but the condescension from the pro-SOV crowd is at least as frustrating as that coming from what many on this forum would call "hippies." I'm not sure how many of you are over fifteen years of age, but it would be nice to see a greater level of maturity from people on both sides of the debate.

Otherwise there is a "fight club" forum on the SSP site (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=151036) for another Canadian city. I'm not even sure SSP regulations actually allow this (mods?), but a Vancouver equivalent might give forum participants an outlet for these types of arguments, while people like myself who are tired of them can simply skip over this particular sub-forum, and, furthermore, discussions in other sub-forums might actually manage to stay on topic.
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  #432  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2009, 3:28 AM
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If I could do something, I would've it long ago.

It's been incredibly frustrating how discussions at SSP turn out, especially if you have been here at the forums for a long period of time. Previously, a moderator wasn't really needed, aside from a few harmless debates, because only productive, insightful, and fun discussions took place. The Car Vs. Transit Vs. Cycling has always been an issue, but not to a point where we are at now. I'm going to make it clear, and this is the last time I'm going to do this: we aren't a forum for you to force your ideas down someone's throat because discussions like that go no where. Members here are getting more and more frustrated and I understand because I'm in their shoes. Everyone has an opinion and they are entitled to it. If you don't like it, the best thing to do is to not respond to it. If you do respond to it, be careful about it, respect others and give them some space. Name-calling is childish, is not welcomed, and violates SSP:Vancouver rules. Indecorous sarcasm also isn't appreciated either and can be considered as "anti-social" behavior. The mods have been discussing over this issue, but it's safe to say that next time something like this happens, there will be consequences and I'm serious. If you can't follow rules that have been laid out in the announcement board or the ones you have agreed to prior to joining the forum, you do not deserve to participate here, and I will gladly revoke your invitation.

Last edited by deasine; Nov 12, 2009 at 4:00 AM.
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  #433  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2009, 3:32 AM
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  #434  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2009, 3:35 AM
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Originally Posted by s211 View Post
You don't win friends with hyperbole.
Reality bites doesn't it.
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  #435  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2009, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by geoff's two cents View Post
Otherwise there is a "fight club" forum on the SSP site (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=151036) for another Canadian city. I'm not even sure SSP regulations actually allow this (mods?), but a Vancouver equivalent might give forum participants an outlet for these types of arguments, while people like myself who are tired of them can simply skip over this particular sub-forum, and, furthermore, discussions in other sub-forums might actually manage to stay on topic.
Dude, you just broke the first rule of fight club!
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  #436  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2009, 12:42 AM
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Death of Dunsmuir and Georgia viaducts could revitalize Strathcona

By Carlito Pablo

Last summer, the Strathcona Residents Association endorsed the idea of transforming Prior Street and Venables Street, all the way to Commercial Drive, into a neighbourhood greenway.

A concept that has been evolving for years out of the Grandview-Woodland Area Council, the initiative seeks to turn the busy East Vancouver thoroughfare into a pedestrian-friendly boulevard of gardens and bike paths, with only local vehicular traffic permitted.

However, according to Strathcona resident Rick Archambault, one major piece of the puzzle is missing. Another road must be designated to bear downtown-bound cars being fed onto the Dunsmuir Viaduct, as well as the outbound traffic coming off the Georgia Viaduct.

For years, Archambault recalled in a phone interview, residents heard city engineers talk about a “Malkin connector”. The concept involves building a link over the railroad tracks from Clark Drive and East 1st Avenue to Malkin Avenue south of Prior Street, which would carry the traffic going downtown. But there has been little progress regarding this scheme.

Meanwhile, Strathcona residents have to put up with the enormous amount of traffic generated by the viaducts, and the risks associated with it. For one, Archambault related that a friend of a friend was hit by a car a few months ago and sustained major brain injuries.

The Prior-Venables greenway initiative has remained largely on paper in the face of the concrete reality posed by the viaducts. But with city hall moving to study the feasibility of tearing down the twin overpasses, it may come to life after all.

“It would make sense that the viaduct is at least going to be rerouted in order to turn Prior from a through street into a neighbourhood street,” Archambault told the Georgia Straight.

The midsection of the eastern ramps of the viaducts is across from a shack at 207 Union Street, a property that Vincent Fodera bought in 2001. Two years later, the Italian émigré discovered that the place was once Vie’s Chicken and Steak House, and that a young musician who eventually became rock legend Jimi Hendrix practised after hours there.

This led Fodera not only to convert the property into a Hendrix “shrine”, which he opened last summer, but also to dig deeper into the history of the area. He has since learned that Vie’s was considered part of Hogan’s Alley, an entertainment lane that ran between Prior and Union streets. It was also a predominantly black district.

Hogan’s Alley ceased to exist when the viaducts opened in 1972. The city purchased the properties there, and in their place are the eastern ramps, according to Fodera.

On a recent Sunday, as Fodera prepared the Union Street property for an evening event marking the birth of Hendrix on November 27, 1942, he imagined that Hogan’s Alley could have a rebirth of sorts if the viaducts eventually come down.

“History keeps repeating all the time in different forms,” Fodera told the Straight. “Vancouver is very musically oriented, and there’s tons of musicians here. Hogan’s Alley was the place where a lot of music was played.”

He acknowledged, though, that condos would likely rise out of what was once Hogan’s Alley. But with a revitalized district, Fodera has visions of his Hendrix place becoming a tourist attraction, especially among Americans. “They will come and say, ‘Hey, Jimi Hendrix belongs to Vancouver too. Let’s see his shrine.’ ”

Long before Coun. Geoff Meggs advanced the notion of getting rid of the viaducts, renowned architect and urban designer Bing Thom had started thinking about their place in a global city like Vancouver.

“Undoubtedly, in my mind, Vancouver is going to grow because we are on the Pacific edge, and things are happening in Asia,” Thom told the Straight by phone. He explained that the continued economic expansion in China and India will produce a huge boom in Vancouver as well, and that will require a more efficient use of land.

Doing away with the viaducts will release at least 100,000 square feet of city land, according to Thom. “If you took four or five city blocks, and if you have the density of let’s say seven, which is what’s in the downtown, and say, ‘Okay, it’s $50 a square foot,’ or whatever, you probably get a few hundred million dollars of real estate,” he said. “That’s just sitting there as a potential, which we could put to better use and create more housing and make things more affordable for working people.”

In a phone interview, Meggs gives credit to Thom for taking an initial look at whether the city should retain the Georgia and Dunsmuir viaducts.

“It seems likely that you could find transportation solutions,” Meggs told the Straight. “That would free up a lot of valuable land, which can partly pay for the demolition and make the whole area a more open and sustained development.”

The Vision Vancouver councillor and his family are former residents of Strathcona. “Part of Strathcona remains cut off from the rest of the neighbourhood by the four lanes of traffic coming from Venables,” Meggs said. “That’s a continuing problem.”

On Thursday (November 19), Vancouver city council will vote on a motion by Meggs for staff to study the feasibility of tearing down the viaducts.

http://www.straight.com/article-2709...ize-strathcona

Quote:
CommentsRodSmelser
Thu, 2009-11-19 08:56
Rating: +2
4 votes I have to say that Bing Thom's remarks about making downtown more affordable are hard to accept. No one in civic politics wants to do anything that would lower the market price of housing, because to do so would reduce the non-taxable capital gains their voters have in their principal residence.

Anyone can understand the wish of people to turn their local street into a greenway, rather than an arterial. Because their is no highway or freeway connecting downtown with the Trans-Canada, traffic uses city streets, principally 12th-Grandview Hwy and East 1st. Venables is likely carrying traffic generally going little further than Commercial Drive, though some might be turning south at Clark to reach 1st or 12th.

If the viaducts are removed, what becomes of Georgia Street and Dunsmuir, assuming they don't simply dead end at Beatty? There's going to be surface streets integrated into Pacific Boulevard, and then connecting to Main, East 1st, etc. There will still be some kind of overhead structure to access the condo towers overtop the downtown Costco, so these surface streets won't necessarily be sunny stretches of boulevard.

What is the cost of the Malkin connector, and why hasn't it been built. After all, there's a lot of stimulus money on offer right now.
Agree Disagree

Rod Smelser Agree Disagree


Greg Klein
Thu, 2009-11-19 14:28
Rating: +1
1 vote I’ve walked by that building lots of times without realizing it was Vie’s Chicken and Steak House. The place would be a Vancouver legend even without the Hendrix connection.

I’m not sure Hogan’s Alley was primarily black, although I understand there was a concentration of black residents and some night spots around there.

Interesting website here:
http://hogansalleyproject.blogspot.com/

Some of the Hastings and Main hotels, like the Patricia and Regent, figure prominently in Vancouver’s musical history. The neighbourhood was Jelly Roll Morton’s base between 1919 and 1921, according to Mark Miller’s book Such Melodious Racket.
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  #437  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2009, 4:42 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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Is anybody comfortable with the idea of replacing the viaducts with an underground tunnel from Terminal to Hamilton? =S

In addition to removing the viaducts per people's wishes it still keeps a potentially important connection to Downtown (and I say potentially because I dunno how many people use it on a daily basis). It would also divert truck traffic from Venables which wasn't intended to handle all this traffic anyway.

The only problem of course would be the high cost of tunneling, especially in the former False Creek Flats area. But... given the benefits it sounds reasonable. =O

As for the existing viaducts... I'm wondering... would the city just keep the parts that are necessary for the stadium and Spectrum? Or will they take everything down and rebuild from scratch? It seems difficult if they chose the latter.
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  #438  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2009, 5:04 AM
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Arrow I'm OK with the tunnel idea....

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
Is anybody comfortable with the idea of replacing the viaducts with an underground tunnel from Terminal to Hamilton? =S

In addition to removing the viaducts per people's wishes it still keeps a potentially important connection to Downtown (and I say potentially because I dunno how many people use it on a daily basis). It would also divert truck traffic from Venables which wasn't intended to handle all this traffic anyway.

The only problem of course would be the high cost of tunneling, especially in the former False Creek Flats area. But... given the benefits it sounds reasonable. =O

As for the existing viaducts... I'm wondering... would the city just keep the parts that are necessary for the stadium and Spectrum? Or will they take everything down and rebuild from scratch? It seems difficult if they chose the latter.
... trouble is, many people here are NOT OK with tunnels in any form.
Most major world cities: Paris, London, Stockholm, Montreal .... use tunnels to avoid bridges, and to get clogging, surface traffic from Point A to Point B, discreetly. But people here think that will generate more traffic.
I don't know if it will or not. But to me, a tunnel is fine.
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  #439  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2009, 9:03 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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People afraid of tunnels? =S

The only people that might complain are those from the CityGate development... and they complain a lot I have to say... =S even the Skytrain slows down for them (noise complaints). >.<

That aside... it wouldn't add traffic. In fact the intersections of Knight and Terminal + Main and Terminal are quite congested. Sure, if we build the tunnel so that its portal is past Main St there'd be less congestion but then again there's still the Knight and Terminal intersection to deal with... and the chance of that being upgraded as well is slim due to the need to acquire property.
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  #440  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2009, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff's two cents View Post
I've lately desisted from propounding my own beliefs on this forum (except, perhaps, indirectly, as they relate to preferences I have for specific projects), as I've quickly noticed they aren't winning any converts, but the condescension from the pro-SOV crowd is at least as frustrating as that coming from what many on this forum would call "hippies." I'm not sure how many of you are over fifteen years of age, but it would be nice to see a greater level of maturity from people on both sides of the debate.
IMO, the mods have done a reasonable job of encouraging good debate while allowing most of the energy to show. Good information, venting of spleens, there is a lot for everyone here on SSP.....

In contrast, Frances Bula's excellent blog on local issues has become unreadable of late due to the post responses. Just read her posts on NEFC to see what commentary oblivion is...
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