Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Zassk]

^ Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't faresavers overdue for a raise? Historically faresavers only saved you 5% off of cash fares, but in recent years, they have fallen behind cash fares, and now save us far more (at Translink's expense).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

^ Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't faresavers overdue for a raise? Historically faresavers only saved you 5% off of cash fares, but in recent years, they have fallen behind cash fares, and now save us far more (at Translink's expense).

Well for the 1 zone example they are going from $19 (24% savings) to $21 (16% savings).

I thought they were around 20% traditionally. My email to the Translink commission said "why don't you pick a discount rate and raise all forms of fares at the same time".

They also need a 3, 5, 7 day pass. This should be painfully easy using the existing TVMs.

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Well for the 1 zone example they are going from $19 (24% savings) to $21 (16% savings).

I thought they were around 20% traditionally. My email to the Translink commission said "why don't you pick a discount rate and raise all forms of fares at the same time".

They also need a 3, 5, 7 day pass. This should be painfully easy using the existing TVMs.

Translink is 10 years behind with its fare system. I still don't understand why one cannot buy a daypass r a return ticket when boarding a bus - surely those machines are capable of printing a ticket valid for the whole day.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Well for the 1 zone example they are going from $19 (24% savings) to $21 (16% savings).

I thought they were around 20% traditionally.

In the 80's and early 90's, you saved only 1 fare on a pack of 20 (5% savings). Not much "saver", and no coincidence that I rarely saw anyone use them.

[DKaz]

Faresavers should follow the West Coast Express and add 20% value for prepaying. (Example, when I reload $60 into my WCE GO 2 Card, WCE gives me a bonus 20% or $12) and monthly passes should cost the same as using 40 Faresavers a month.

Faresavers:
1 Zone $20.83
2 Zone $31.25
3 Zone $41.67

Passes
1 Zone $84
2 Zone $125
3 Zone $166

Right now West Coast Express is structured so that you get 20% bonus with a GO 2 Card reload (which equals about 17% savings) as I mentioned before, return passes are ~6% savings over cash fares, weekly passes are ~20% savings over cash fares, and 28 day passes are ~38% savings over cash fares. The 38% savings is probably a bit excessive, let's try 34% (30% for 1 to 2 zones)

New 28 Day Pass prices:
1 to 2 zones $140
3 zones $178.50
4 zones $218
5 zones $297 (ugh)

**I wonder why West Coast Express puts Pitt Meadows, Maple Meadows, and Port Haney in the 4th zone even though it's still the 3rd zone with Coast Mountain Bus.

[CLC]

I believe Zassk memory is right. Nowadays faresavers "save more" than 10+years ago. For instance, faresavers' price was frozen during the much protested cash fare hike in 2002 (at the same time Translink cut some bus service, a few route became 1-hour wait from 30 minutes)

I am going to stockpile 1-zone & 2-zone faresavers for my home. Faresavers are also used for HandyDart, which apply regular zone fares regardless of ages.

[Zassk]

I wonder, how long can Translink afford U-Pass? Will changes be necessary?

[mr.x]

^ simply hike the pass, problem solved. As a UBC student, the ~$25 price is quite low....but i'm not going to complain. :p

[Spork]

The schools have contracts with Translink (3-5 years, I believe). The students need to have a referendum in order to not continue on. I doubt that they would ever turn any hike down, given historical referendum percentages.

[Alex Mackinnon]

I'm not so sure. A lot of people like to complain a lot when it comes down to the any increases in price. I'd have no problem paying a fair bit more for my pass but there were people (and I believe there were some on the AMS council) who were complaining about the $2 increase last time around. The hippies at UBC provide endless entertainment.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I wonder, how long can Translink afford U-Pass? Will changes be necessary?

Now I'm not a student of any of the schools that are in the U-Pass program. And never have been. I would not though ever think of ending this program. I think this was one the greatest ideas that Translink ever came up with.

One is got a lot of students out of their cars. Two while not every student will do this. You might get a certain percentage that even after they have finished school will continue to take transit. This would be because they have gotten used to it. Three now because of this program a lot of bus routes are at over capacity at certain times of the day. Pass ups can be quite common. Now that isn't good in itself. But what if the buses where half empty all the time. People would be screaming about all these half empty buses and why do we need them. Now because the buses are over full people will scream for more buses or more rapid service (whatever that may be). Which is a win for everyone in the long run.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by mr.x

^ simply hike the pass, problem solved. As a UBC student, the ~$25 price is quite low....but i'm not going to complain. :p

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but my last year at SFU was during the introduction of the U-Pass. At that time we voted on it, because it was a mandatory cost for every student (can't remember the amount) regardless of whether or not we used transit.

So potentially Translink was offering a huge discount, but if nobody used the passes, they were better off. Does it still work this way? Any estimates on how much the passes are actually used compared to regular passes people are buying to get to work every day?

[Zassk]

There are some good statistics about the UBC U-Pass program on page 10 of this document. Basically, the UBC U-Pass is paying for 51,000 person-trips per day as of 2008, which is a 168% increase from 12 years earlier, and represents roughly half of all commuting to UBC. This compares to an overall increase of only 10% person-trips for all modes of transportation, and trips-per-person actually decreased.

So the $25 U-Pass (along with other factors) has greatly shaped commuting habits at UBC, and is being used far in excess of what its discounted price pays for. Given that half of the UBC U-Passes appear to be actively used each month, and the average cost of a regular monthly pass would be around $100 (averaged over commuters from all zones), Translink is losing roughly 50% of its income from this entire community of 46,000 people.

If we want to keep these subsidized commuters on transit, then I think that some form of rapid transit should be an absolute priority for this corridor, with the simultaneous goals of reducing the cost per person-trip and alleviating the current limit on capacity.

[DKaz]

Remember that most college students around Greater Vancouver would only pay $73 anyway under the FastTrax program.

There is still a love affair with the personal automobile for the students who can afford it.

[Zassk]

Some other interesting results of the UBC U-Pass program:

- bicycle trips to UBC decreased by 41%
- pedestrian trips to UBC decreased by 28%
- carpool trips to UBC decreased by 50% ("the proportion of carpools with 3 or more persons has decreased, with a corresponding increase in 2-person carpools")
- SOV trips to UBC decreased by 6%

In this time period, the number of students (eligible for U-Pass) increased by 36%.

[kylemacmac]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Some other interesting results of the UBC U-Pass program:

- bicycle trips to UBC decreased by 41%
- pedestrian trips to UBC decreased by 28%
- carpool trips to UBC decreased by 50% ("the proportion of carpools with 3 or more persons has decreased, with a corresponding increase in 2-person carpools")
- SOV trips to UBC decreased by 6%

In this time period, the number of students (eligible for U-Pass) increased by 36%.

Interesting stats.

I'd like to see more stats that include the number of students who live on campus now compared to before the Upass was introduced.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Some other interesting results of the UBC U-Pass program:

- bicycle trips to UBC decreased by 41%
- pedestrian trips to UBC decreased by 28%
- carpool trips to UBC decreased by 50% ("the proportion of carpools with 3 or more persons has decreased, with a corresponding increase in 2-person carpools")
- SOV trips to UBC decreased by 6%

In this time period, the number of students (eligible for U-Pass) increased by 36%.

These stats are incomplete and missleading.

The last study I read had similar stats, but the % decrease was a decrease in the total % of mode-share, not a decrease in the actual number of trips.

So the % of total students before Upass riding their bikes was 4%, now it is around 2% of the total, so around a 48% drop of the %. But with increasing student populations, the actual number of bike riders could be higher now than it was, just the share of riders has gone down.

As well, the number of students making carpool trips was low (pre=16%, post=8%). And because the number of students that used SOV's was so high, the small % decrease is actually more significant than the bigger % decreases. Transit trips increased from around 40% of total trips to around 70%.

And you fail to mention that at SFU, the number of trips by bike was statistically 0% before Upass, so other factors can have an impact on changing trends. For UBC, the age of the nearby population in Point Grey has been increasing. There are fewer school aged adults within bike range of UBC now than there was 10 years ago. The average commute to get to school is longer now.

Also, what's wrong with extending a public service to University students, many of whom are surviving on a shoe string budget and student loans (provided by the government). It tends to work out that poorer students now don't need to buy a car to get to school, and wealthier students still drive (and pay the Upass) helping offset the cost of helping the students that need it.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

So the % of total students before Upass riding their bikes was 4%, now it is around 2% of the total, so around a 48% drop of the %. But with increasing student populations, the actual number of bike riders could be higher now than it was, just the share of riders has gone down.

I suggest you actually look at the tables in the PDF, because your criticism is misplaced. The actual raw numbers of people riding bikes to/from UBC per weekday decreased from 2,700 in 1997 to 1,600 in 2008. Pedestrians down from 1,400 to 1,000. The mode-share numbers are also in the PDF, but they are not what I quoted. The report attempts to draw a conclusion:

Originally Posted by UBC Transportation Status Report

The student U-Pass program is the most-likely reason for the decrease in bicycle trips (it should
be noted that the decrease did not occur immediately after the U-Pass was implemented, but
rather occurred a year later in 2004).
All diesel buses operating on transit routes serving UBC are equipped with bicycle racks which
can hold up to two bicycles, as are new trolley buses. Table 3.7 provides a summary of the
numbers of bicycles on racks on buses. A total of 351 bicycles were observed in one day,
representing an average of 0.18 bicycles per rack. The most popular route for cyclists to travel
with their bicycles was the Route 99 B-Line.

[DKaz]

I've tried riding a bike up 10th from Alma towards UBC... even with electric assist that hill was still a nightmare to go up.

[cabotp]

This may sound like a dumb question.

But who in their right mind would walk to UBC

Now that would be one long walk.