AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[arbeiter]

I don't want some Republican hairdresser giving me the "Rumsfeld", thanks.

I'm still not sure 360 has room for much in the way of upgrades. The southernmost point near Walsh Tarlton, maybe, and the northernmost point, maybe, but again, these are in environmentally sensitive areas. The damage to Bull Creek would likely be fairly extensive.

This area isn't going to grow all that much - most of the undeveloped land has been developed. The rest is preserve.

360 contains lots of upper-class citizens with time on their hands, and they will make sure that these freeway dreams are just pipe dreams and theoretical. They know that the extra 5 minutes it takes to get home is an acceptable opportunity cost to having their $800,000 or $1.2 million house's view obliterated by access ramps.

[PartyLine]

The traffic on 360 isn't that bad except at rush hour or unless there's a wreck or something.

[PartyLine]

[QUOTE=wwmiv;4550690]I'm going to be honest.

America at this point in time and foreseeable future is engaged in a culture of cars. This is a culture of individual transportation.

If I had my way with current policy, it would not be to expand public transportation at the expense of individual transportation.

We are running out of gas, therefore - in order to not let the billions spent by our government on mass individual transportation infrastructure - it would be wise to instead change the means of powering our vehicles and other transportation options.

This means investment in research.

I don't care if you think my language was incendiary, and I don't care about a few spelling mistakes (everyone makes them). Frankly, my original post wasn't incendiary - it was calm.

Yes, upgrading central east-west roads to have both more lanes and turn lanes is frankly the only solution.

San Antonio's traffic is heavy - there isn't any reason to deny that - but it moves. Apart from 1604 the traffic is not stop and go even at peak hours.



Go drive on 281 north of 1604 I drove down there on a Saturday afternoon and 281 was bumper to bumper going into SA no wreck or anything just heavy traffic.

[wwmiv]

Eh. Remember to put the end quote command after the segment you want to quote.

I was confining my statement about congestion to freeways. Of course 281 north of 1604 is congested! IT ISN'T A FREEWAY. Not only that, but on the northbound side you have 3 main lanes of traffic and 3 lanes of access condensing to just 3 lanes in about 200 feet then down to 2 lanes about a mile later - all while having to stop at the mercy of the lights.

Comparing the actual freeways between the two cities ends up with Austin having much more congestion. San Antonio is rated fifth for freeway lane miles per capita in the U.S. among urban areas of greater than 1 mil (of course this metric leaves Austin out, but that doesn't matter) at .867.

And that was data from 1999! The major expansions on 410 had yet come to pass and the expansions on 10 weren't yet finished. 410 still hasn't been finished so you can expect that number to keep rising (either keeping pace with population growth or - the more likely scenario - outpacing that growth). When they finally get to expanding 35 - currently going through prep work in some places - expect that number to jump.

The figures for Austin as most assuredly lower even on a per capita basis, and it doesn't help that toll roads do not typically matter in such metrics as they only count as freeway equivalent lanes in studies like these.

Austin is the largest city in the nation with a single interstate (by no fault of its own - a victim of location and prior small population size), but it has not done itself any favors by continuing to punt expansions down the road in favor of massive lake front beautification projects, needless access roads, 5 stack interchanges in all the wrong places, and overall bad design of infrastructure.

[wwmiv]

Also, you have to realize that 281 being the small freeway it is and coming into town from a populated area, it is going to be the most congested freeway no matter what. It doesn't help that going through the Olmos Basin it turns into a very windy freeway with sharp turns and extremely lowered speed limits creates a kindof 'herd' mentality among the drivers to slow to a near-stop. After you clear the UIW campus near Hildebrand traffic flow speeds up considerably due to the added lanes just ahead at the confluence of 37.

[PartyLine]

Yeah I forgot the quote lol I thought it would automaticly do it lol yeah I know there working on 410 and all I don't disagree SA has more freeways than Austin the 2030 CAMPO plan has them extending SH45 west down 620

http://www.campotexas.org/pdfs/Adopt...ty2030Plan.pdf

[wwmiv]

Ofcourse they do - that's been widely known for awhile... But think of it this way:

San Antonio: 281, 37, 90, 10, 410, 35, 151, 1604
8 freeways: multiple of which have significant chunks of 6 lanes each direction
Every freeway is located in an area with a large population and future expansion plans are not likely to include tolled roads.

Austin: 35, 1, 183, 290, 71, 45, 130
3 full freeways, 2 tollways, and 2 mixed: with only short sections of 4 lanes each way.
Not all freeways are located in a dense urban or suburban area and future expansions call for a heavy use of tolled roads.

[arbeiter]

Just because San Antonio did one thing doesn't mean Austin should. Simple as that. Austin is not a terrible place to live because it doesn't have as many freeways as San Antonio. We are still a smaller city - although ironically, our metropolitan area GDP is about the same, which reflects Austin's tremendous growth and higher median income.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

Just because San Antonio did one thing doesn't mean Austin should. Simple as that. Austin is not a terrible place to live because it doesn't have as many freeways as San Antonio. We are still a smaller city

Austin is not a terrible place for you to live because you have different values and priorities than me. Also - San Antonio and Austin have similarly sized metropolitan areas in the overall grand scheme of things. 1.7-1.8 million is not much different from 2.1-2.2 million when considering that metro areas range anywhere from .5 million to 35 million. As for the cities themselves, city limits themselves are arbitrary boundaries set up by the people who live in that area as a means to govern themselves - they don't affect the overall size of a population in an area any more than a cow can affect if it is going to get eaten or not.

Also, since you criticized me for misspellings, I'm going to return the favor and point out that that you used irony incorrectly. Irony, as defined by Merriam-Webster, is the incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result. Because our metropolitan areas are similarly sized, our GDP values are also going to be similarly sized - an expected result... Although, I would posit that my view is a result of my looking at things on a larger scale than you.

[alexjon]

Austin is not going to approve a larger road expansion, that period is over.

[M1EK]

wwmiv, there are very few people in Austin who look at San Antonio and go "I wish we were more like them". FWIW. The only reason Austin has any urban mojo at all is that the freeway monster was tamed here, unlike in other Texas cities.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by arbeiter

I don't want some Republican hairdresser giving me the "Rumsfeld", thanks.

Thou doth protest too much methinks. Don't assume I'm a Republican.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by M1EK

wwmiv, there are very few people in Austin who look at San Antonio and go "I wish we were more like them". FWIW. The only reason Austin has any urban mojo at all is that the freeway monster was tamed here, unlike in other Texas cities.

I see it the opposite way. Freeways are an essential part of the urban fabric in America. Austin has done its citizenry a disservice by following the NIMBY crowd. Also, FWIW, there are plenty in Auston wondering why there hasn't been any expansion of infrastructure apart from tollways over the past decade and are mad about it. The problem is that they are latent and aren't politically active.

[M1EK]

The only reason we have a vibrant central city where people with money actually want to live (instead of fleeing to the suburbs) is that they weren't destroyed with freeways. The 1960s plan would have taken out Old West Austin and Clarksville, would have destroyed the Drag (pre-empted West Campus and the Triangle), and would have destroyed the future good urban development happening on E Riverside, off the top of my head.

And this is one of the few cases where the central NIMBYs and urbanites ought to be on the same team - the same freeways, again, that would have destroyed rich peoples' mansions in OWANA would have also precluded the Nokonah; the same freeways that would have destroyed the neighborhood along 2222 would have stopped the Triangle. The only people who benefit from urban freeways are those who want to parasitize off the city and flee to the suburbs as soon as possible.

[KevinFromTexas]

MetroRail trains to run afternoon tests starting next week
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/conte...un_aftern.html

[PartyLine]

Originally Posted by M1EK

The only reason we have a vibrant central city where people with money actually want to live (instead of fleeing to the suburbs) is that they weren't destroyed with freeways. The 1960s plan would have taken out Old West Austin and Clarksville, would have destroyed the Drag (pre-empted West Campus and the Triangle), and would have destroyed the future good urban development happening on E Riverside, off the top of my head.

And this is one of the few cases where the central NIMBYs and urbanites ought to be on the same team - the same freeways, again, that would have destroyed rich peoples' mansions in OWANA would have also precluded the Nokonah; the same freeways that would have destroyed the neighborhood along 2222 would have stopped the Triangle. The only people who benefit from urban freeways are those who want to parasitize off the city and flee to the suburbs as soon as possible.

Not everyone wants to live in central Austin though I don't I live in Cat Mountain and my parents live in Westlake

[henrylightcap]

It seems like this discussion (depending on whose perspective) is about two different things: expansion and/or improvement of highways/roads in the "general Austin area" and expansion of highways/roads THROUGH downtown. I can see some room for improvement throughout the Austin area but I can't see any reason whatsoever to carve any new roads through the downtown. My anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that many progressive cities are getting away from doing that as it has historically divided and ruined neighborhoods.

In general, I think the more roads you build, the more people choose to drive. It seems to me that simply finishing out and properly connecting the highways/freeways already here would help significantly. There are several incomplete connections along I35. And as is mentioned on another thread, there are a few highways in need of the transition to freeways. Can someone tell me how traveling 60 mph (legal speed limit) and cresting a hill only to slam on the g*ddamned brakes because of a red light is at all safe?

[hookem]

Originally Posted by PartyLine

Not everyone wants to live in central Austin though I don't I live in Cat Mountain and my parents live in Westlake

Part of the reason those neighborhoods are so desirable is because the central part of the city hasn't been broken up by major highways.. Westlake is still contiguous and adjacent to neighborhoods like Rollingwood and Tarrytown... Cat Mountain with NW Hills, Highland Hills, old Lakewood, etc.

If 360 had been made a full freeway, like say 610 in Houston, you'd have bad parts of both neighborhoods (basically the edges right by the loop). Think about Houston. Sure, the desirable neighborhoods are "inside the loop", but they drop off considerably right along the highway -- where the edge of a decent neighborhood drops off to typical sprawl (access-road placed businesses and surface lots) and neighborhood barriers (hundreds of yards of non-habitable concrete access roads, main lanes, underpasses, and more access roads).

[arbeiter]

I don't deny that the NIMBY crowd has perhaps been on the wrong side of some arguments - but freeways are not really one of them. Throughout the late 80's and early 90's things were bad, and that was definitely a time in which I think Austin as a whole was a bit "late to the game", but that was real growth.

Highway 183 was definitely in need of expansion about 5 years before it started happening. I know very well, I grew up off the 183 corridor the entire time I lived here (except when I was an adult and moved to Central Austin). I remember the pile of cars at Braker once the freeway portion ended, then at Duval, then at Spicewood Springs. After that, I moved away to New York and came back for Christmas and lo and behold, it ended at 620 and we were in the midst of new extensions being built.

I mean, they're already expanding 183A past 1431 - 130 is still being built southward, the Ed Bluestein portion of 183 has received upgrades, 71 East has been upgraded, the big stack at 71 and 35 is helpful, etc. There have been a lot of upgrades in the Austin area, and I think they're pretty much adequate for now.

There is simply no room for a downtown freeway connector without ruining a lot of what many Austinites hold to be important to the city's character. It is just a dream on your part.

[PartyLine]

Originally Posted by hookem

Part of the reason those neighborhoods are so desirable is because the central part of the city hasn't been broken up by major highways.. Westlake is still contiguous and adjacent to neighborhoods like Rollingwood and Tarrytown... Cat Mountain with NW Hills, Highland Hills, old Lakewood, etc.

If 360 had been made a full freeway, like say 610 in Houston, you'd have bad parts of both neighborhoods (basically the edges right by the loop). Think about Houston. Sure, the desirable neighborhoods are "inside the loop", but they drop off considerably right along the highway -- where the edge of a decent neighborhood drops off to typical sprawl (access-road placed businesses and surface lots) and neighborhood barriers (hundreds of yards of non-habitable concrete access roads, main lanes, underpasses, and more access roads).

I'm glad 360 isn't a freeway not all the desirable neighborhoods are inside 610 the Memorial area is outside 610