Canada Line | Completed

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by CLC

Richmond Review
Letter: Long wait for Canada Line in the morning


A valid complaint, and Canada line really need real 6-minute interval servicing Richmond now from begin of day to until 10.
I know people who takes transit in early morning hour from Richmond West now needs up to 25 minutes more than previous direct bus

This is where Translink needs to learn from Metro Bus (The transit system covering St. Cloud/Waite Park/Sartell/Sauk Rapids of Minnesota, where I'm living right now). Although most frequencies of the buses are either 30min/60min, they purposely timed it so that most of the buses arrive at the same time at a downtown exchange, so that people can quickly transfer from one bus to the next without waiting for 30min at the bus shelter (the exception would be if the bus is 30min in frequency and another is 60min, if you want to transfer from the bus with 30min frequency to another with 60min frequency then you would have to wait for 30min to transfer for every 2nd bus.

Unlike Translink, Metro Bus bus drivers ACTUALLY do their job, not wait for ANY stragglers who are running but are late and they stick to their schedule. Their buses are virtually 100% (+/- 1min) on time, unlike Translink (although there's no traffic congestion at all here at St. Cloud since it's a small town of 65,000 ppl). And their buses are in PRISTINE condition and people actually don't vandalize them.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by deasine

To be exact, Richmond-Brighouse and YVR-Airport should be able to handle 2 minute and 30 second headways, but anything less than that wouldn't work out too well. If we have an additional 10 trains, your idea of having 2 of the 3 trains to Brighouse would work because I think YVR, involved in the contract process, insisted on a minimum frequency, which makes sense.

In the mean time the spare trains could be used for the Richmond link, with something like 3 out of every 5 trains going to Brighouse. Time to amend that contract.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

This is where Translink needs to learn from Metro Bus (The transit system covering St. Cloud/Waite Park/Sartell/Sauk Rapids of Minnesota, where I'm living right now). Although most frequencies of the buses are either 30min/60min, they purposely timed it so that most of the buses arrive at the same time at a downtown exchange, so that people can quickly transfer from one bus to the next without waiting for 30min at the bus shelter (the exception would be if the bus is 30min in frequency and another is 60min, if you want to transfer from the bus with 30min frequency to another with 60min frequency then you would have to wait for 30min to transfer for every 2nd bus.

Unlike Translink, Metro Bus bus drivers ACTUALLY do their job, not wait for ANY stragglers who are running but are late and they stick to their schedule. Their buses are virtually 100% (+/- 1min) on time, unlike Translink (although there's no traffic congestion at all here at St. Cloud since it's a small town of 65,000 ppl). And their buses are in PRISTINE condition and people actually don't vandalize them.

I don't doubt for a moment that Translink's got to get their act together. But I'm not surprised either with St. Cloud's buses being clean, and having no one vandalizing them. A town of 65,000 people - that's pretty small, compared to Vancouver's 650,000 people (metro area of what...2.5 mil?). Congestion and traffic are the two things that Vancouver buses have to deal with with regards to their routes. Sometimes these buses have to deal with crazy routes, with people giving them a difficult time (you can imagine, with a city of over half a million). Vandalism, I think is part of a growing city. Cities that have huge populations have these problems, just like every growing city has crime problems/issues they need to deal with. Vancouver is no different in those regards.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Vancity

I don't doubt for a moment that Translink's got to get their act together. But I'm not surprised either with St. Cloud's buses being clean, and having no one vandalizing them. A town of 65,000 people - that's pretty small, compared to Vancouver's 650,000 people (metro area of what...2.5 mil?).

Or from another perspective: St. Cloud's population matches the daily ridership of just one Vancouver bus route - the 99 B-Line.

[nname]

Well, in a lot of places bus don't even have a schedule because the traffic is so unpredictable. Quite a few of my friends from Asia were surprised that the buses actually run on a schedule in North America. Here in Taipei, the most information they'll provide is the time when the bus leave the depot (for infrequent routes), but the majority just says "approximately every 20-30 minutes". Keep in mind that the traffic is so bad here most of the day and its not uncommon to see 2-3 buses on routes that run once every hour to bunch up in the return leg (yes, Vancouver's traffic is pretty nice compared to here, as the buses are only 'a few minutes late', rather than 'a few hours late'). Most people here take subway not because its fast, but rather, because they're predictable and reliable.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I think even 4-5 min frequency in the YVR/Richmond branch would not be too bad. But yeah, the current C-Line frequency is absolutely no better than the old 98 B-Line. Why they don't make the frequency patterns similar to the E/M-Lines (constant frequency throughout the day except at late night) really puzzles me. I think Translink/Pro-Trans planners have totally stuck their heads in the sand on this one (as usual everyone on those board TOTALLY underestimated the potential transit ridership in Richmond, as they have blindly believed in the LRSP like a religious ritual).

But the problem is, now that the Translink has voted to only increase the budget to $130mil, is it even possible to have the money to buy extra Rotem trains in the foreseeable future?

At least the Canada Line is way more reliable than the 98. I had multiple occasions where I waited 30+ minutes, which is completely unacceptable, then knowing that there were two other B-Lines directly behind it. Every three minutes, seven minutes at the branches is okay... Vancouverites are quite spoiled when it comes to frequencies of trains, especially compared to San Francisco, Seattle, even Portland, etc. That being said, rush hours, trains arriving every seven minutes is just not enough. TransLink should reintroduce the 490 or whatever express bus on No. 1 Rd/Granville St, but they wouldn't do that until Canada Line reaches the 100 000 ridership.

It's also important to realize that when the Canada Line was planned, Richmond didn't have many of the apartments, but I think the problem lied where TransLink/Ravco officials didn't effectively communicate with the municipalities and their plans/visions for the city.

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The single tracking doesn't need to be rectified; the insufficient number of trains in service is what needs to be rectified.

Last SSP conclusion on the number of trains in service during peak was 14/20. Can anyone confirm that this is still the case? If so - Translink doesn't even need to buy new trains, just cover the operating costs and tell them to get four more in service tomorrow. This would be a 28% increase in capacity, and many of our problems might disappear immediately.

This should be a no-brainer. The worst part of the current situation would be frustrated people who give up on transit and get back in their cars. Let's not go there.

[David]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, in a lot of places bus don't even have a schedule because the traffic is so unpredictable. Quite a few of my friends from Asia were surprised that the buses actually run on a schedule in North America. Here in Taipei, the most information they'll provide is the time when the bus leave the depot (for infrequent routes),

Even in Seattle it's like that. I waited for a bus in the U District and the times listed for the bus on the stop were the times that it left its origin, not the times that they came to the stop.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by CLC

Richmond Review
Letter: Long wait for Canada Line in the morning

She didn't read the footnote ion the TransLink website - it says the listed frequencies are for the main leg and frequencies on the branches are double those shown - so her 6 min => 12 min.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by NucksFanInVan

Last SSP conclusion on the number of trains in service during peak was 14/20.

My off-the-cuff guess is that they should be able to run 2/3 trains to Brighouse if they had 4-5 more trains in service, without seriously affecting the frequency to the airport. I wonder if it's feasible with the current fleet.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Zassk

My off-the-cuff guess is that they should be able to run 2/3 trains to Brighouse if they had 4-5 more trains in service, without seriously affecting the frequency to the airport. I wonder if it's feasible with the current fleet.

It would be hard if the train does not evenly split between Richmond and airport, due to timing and single track issues...

[nname]

I guess its possible, with a train every 4min 20sec for the Richmond branch, and 8min 40sec for the airport branch.. and the combined portion.. average headway of 2min 53⅓sec

The airport would have slightly reduced capacity since a train is running every 7min 30sec now.

The schedule would be similar to something like this:


With this schedule, there's a 1.5min recovery at Waterfront and 30sec at airport and Richmond (they'll need both tracks at WF for this).. well, if only the trains can travel little bit faster, they could've make the 4.2/8.4/2.8min headway without making the turn-around a little bit too short...

[BCPhil]

It's too bad the contract seems so ironclad. It would be nice if there was a bit more fluidity to the schedules. If that was the case, we could do 2:1 split, and if for some reason a 747 lands and everyone wants to ride the Canada Line, we could send one of the back-up trains to handle the load from either the yard or right there at the airport where they usually keep one.

[nname]

I don't think the custom is able to process fast enough to fill up the entire train

[red-paladin]

Well, if it was built like the other lines you could have extra trains waiting.
There are spots for trains to wait at Expo waterfront, stadium, metrotown, lougheed. That's one big disadvantage, that they didn't build any pocket tracks.

[Zassk]

^ Actually, there are spots for trains to wait at Waterfront, Lansdowne, and YVR, and ProTrans usually has trains stored in those locations. (And the OMC is in the center of the network, so is another effective waiting spot.) The waiting spots are smaller than the massive one near Lougheed, but the Canada Line trains will always be much shorter due to their width, so they only need a little track. Greater frequency will eventually take away the waiting spot at Waterfront, but the other two waiting spots are surrounded by double-switches, so they will always be available.

[nname]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

It's too bad the contract seems so ironclad. It would be nice if there was a bit more fluidity to the schedules. If that was the case, we could do 2:1 split, and if for some reason a 747 lands and everyone wants to ride the Canada Line, we could send one of the back-up trains to handle the load from either the yard or right there at the airport where they usually keep one.

Well, they could use 19 trains for the short-turned "B" train between airport and Bridgeport, so the schedule would look like this:

[Zassk]

^ Good call. That's exactly the kind of setup that we need today... the "unexpected volume" on the Canada Line is all from Brighouse from what I've observed, so this spur really needs some extra trains.

[DKaz]

The B trains are almost useless and shouldn't be scheduled in... but they'll be great to handle crush loads during the Olympics.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

^ Good call. That's exactly the kind of setup that we need today... the "unexpected volume" on the Canada Line is all from Brighouse from what I've observed, so this spur really needs some extra trains.

Based on the payment system that the airport wants (extra $2.50 for the trip), plus the steady nature of airport traffic vs. rush hour schedule of Richmond-Vancouver commuters, this really should have been setup as a N-S line with an airport shuttle. They'd need a 2nd platform, but then the schedules could be adjusted independently.

For example, the Canada line gets extra capacity for events like U2, big sports events, etc. So does that mean that the airport gets extra service during these times? Does that make any sense?