McMaster University

[flar]

A few things to consider about TAs. $39/hour sounds high, but:

1. They only work 15 hours a week

2. They never see about half their pay because it is automatically deducted for tuition payments.

3. They are highly qualified to do what they do. Not just any person off the street could mark a physics quiz or an honours history essay.

4. TAs have an integral role at the university, performing a very large amount of work while coming considerably cheaper than professors.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by flar

A few things to consider about TAs. $39/hour sounds high, but:

1. They only work 15 hours a week

2. They never see about half their pay because it is automatically deducted for tuition payments.

3. They are highly qualified to do what they do. Not just any person off the street could mark a physics quiz or an honours history essay.

4. TAs have an integral role at the university, performing a very large amount of work while coming considerably cheaper than professors.

1. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The less you work, the less you should get paid. A good proportion of TAs do not even work that nominal 15 hours.

2. Again, not sure what you are trying to say here. So the TA pay helps to offset tuition. Isn't that what it is supposed to do?

3. OK, but many TAs are not necessarily good at doing what they do.

4. How much work most of these people do is debatable. I would hope that professors take home a great deal more pay than do teaching assistants. Professors are full-time employees, while TAs are students working towards degrees.

It almost sounds as if grad students believe that the TA wages should pay for tuition, room, and board. Why?

For people who are good students, there tend to be decent governmental, university, and departmental scholarships available. It is tougher for the not-so-good students to get funding through these channels. It sounds fair to me.

[flar]

BCTed, I think you understand but are being facetious because you disagree with my way of looking at things. I'll reduce it to its simplest terms: TAs make about $5000 a year to do integral work at the university.

Tuition and TA salary cannot be separated, the university pays with one hand and bills with the other. It's a good deal for the university. You may rightly or wrongly write-off some TAs as incompetent, but without them the university would not function. Professors sure aren't going to mark all the thousands of essays and exams that TAs do. Some TAs might not work 15 hours every week, but at other times many will work 15 hours a day marking a stack of 80 or 100 essays.

[SteelTown]

This strike will go on for a very long time, probably longer than the strike at York.

[realcity]

BC and Flar I have to agree with both positions. I was never a TA but I was a student at Mac during the last TA strike and only then did I appreciate how much they did. Mostly I thought they were just professional students. I'll say this tho... they do a lot of work.... however...

$40/hr is fair for what they do.

There exists a system called the 'free market' that determines what a person's labour/intelligence is worth $. TAs have very little if any real-world knowledge, have *generally speaking... fuko* spent a sheltered campus life and quite frankly, I'd rather learn from the ramblings of a 60 year-old 1005 Steelworker dude then a delayed adolescent 30 year-old M.A. TA talking about how the world is through a text book... and how to bong a beer.

hark docks
oi oi

whatever im still drunk from h-ween

[realcity]

[Blurr]

$40 an hour for TA's is far from the real world. There is such an oversupply of qualified people (ie 20 somethings with degrees/qualifications not wanting to do real work, making $120 a day part time) that the current wage would be blown away to the basement in the open market.

An issue just as infuriating is the timing. Right at a time when the economy is hurting and people are just getting by the union chooses to pull the plug, displaying their ignorance to reality. This is also tragic for a university that just had a bad showing the Times Higher Education Rankings. It is unfortunate that they can't pull together for the betterment of the University and Hamilton and instead are selfish and continue to dream in outer space.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by flar

BCTed, I think you understand but are being facetious because you disagree with my way of looking at things. I'll reduce it to its simplest terms: TAs make about $5000 a year to do integral work at the university.

Tuition and TA salary cannot be separated, the university pays with one hand and bills with the other. It's a good deal for the university. You may rightly or wrongly write-off some TAs as incompetent, but without them the university would not function. Professors sure aren't going to mark all the thousands of essays and exams that TAs do. Some TAs might not work 15 hours every week, but at other times many will work 15 hours a day marking a stack of 80 or 100 essays.

Flar, thanks for the counterargument.

However, everyone in my department at the graduate level made roughly twice that when I was a TA.

Also, I agree that TAs are necessary, but would have to question why they necessarily need to get paid significantly more to work at McMaster than UBC (where the cost of living is much higher).

I would also take issue with the fact that every TA is "highly qualified." To use an extreme example, there were a couple MA students in my program who could not have written an A-quality paper if their lives depended on it (and were thus certainly not qualified to adjudicate one) - most, mind you, were better than that.

On a general level, however, there is a problem with grad student accountability. Students have recourse (however limited) with professors seeking tenure in a way that they don't have with Masters level TAs whom the department knows will be gone after a year.

[flar]

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

However, everyone in my department at the graduate level made roughly twice that when I was a TA.

TAs make somewhere around $9800 or so per year, but pay $4000 or $5000 in tutition, so they end up getting about $5000. So they effectively make about $20/hour. That was my point. The reality is the $39/hour sounds a lot better than it is.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by flar

The reality is the $39/hour sounds a lot better than it is.

This, at least, I will concede.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by flar

TAs make somewhere around $9800 or so per year, but pay $4000 or $5000 in tutition, so they end up getting about $5000. So they effectively make about $20/hour. That was my point. The reality is the $39/hour sounds a lot better than it is.

It may not be putting as much money in their pockets as it seems, but they are still making $39/hour regardless. A student making $10-$15 an hour at any other job still has to pay for tuition; either the same trend applies but they effectively end up with no money remaining, or they graduate with massive debts that these T.A.'s will not have.

Either way you look at it T.A's make a hell of a lot of money. They make more than pretty much anyone in the trades, and I would bet they make more than many students' starting salaries coming out of university.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by flar

TAs make somewhere around $9800 or so per year, but pay $4000 or $5000 in tutition, so they end up getting about $5000. So they effectively make about $20/hour. That was my point. The reality is the $39/hour sounds a lot better than it is.

I was not being facetious. I don't think that anyone ever suggested that TA pay was net of tuition. There are graduate studies, for which a student must pay tuition, and then there is TA work, for which a student gets paid. I do not see the relevance of tuition being deducted from TA paycheques in a blended account--- you seem to be suggesting that tuition should be zero.

[flar]

I'm not saying tuition is zero. Tuition is effectively zero, since every graduate student at McMaster is guaranteed a TA position (or RA in lieu, at least for a certain number of years). Students only have to pay tuition if they take longer than the number of years for which they receive funding to complete their degree. Tuition payments and $39/hour wages are just semantics. It's a shell game with $$. At the end of the day, students receive about $5000 dollars per year while they go to school and perform the duties of a TA, which are a valuable service to the university.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by flar

I'm not saying tuition is zero. Tuition is effectively zero, since every graduate student at McMaster is guaranteed a TA position (or RA in lieu, at least for a certain number of years). Students only have to pay tuition if they take longer than the number of years for which they receive funding to complete their degree. Tuition payments and $39/hour wages are just semantics. It's a shell game with $$. At the end of the day, students receive about $5000 dollars per year while they go to school and perform the duties of a TA, which are a valuable service to the university.

Yet one cannot make too much of the perks available to grad students. Better access to faculty (with no TA intermediaries - the faculty in my program would sometimes actually refuse to see individual undergrads who did not go through their TA first), office space (where I was able to store books and do a lot of work - again, not something UBC TAs have access to), much, much smaller classes, exclusive invitation to many talks sponsored by the history department featuring tasty hors d'oeuvres and even alcohol, additional scholarship money in the thousands to top up TA-ship wages - all of which is funded in large part on the backs of undergraduates.

With all due respect flar, I'm not sure I understand the larger point you're trying to make. Are you suggesting that grad students ought not to have to work to receive such generous funding and exclusive access to such services? To receive all this, plus nearly 5K besides in wages, plus 1-4K in additional top-up money, for a mere 260 hours of work. . .

As a former beneficiary of the system (and one who actually had to pay rent - there were those who lined their pockets handsomely while living at home!), I assure you that it's a pretty good deal. I don't ever recall anyone in my program complaining that their rate of pay was inadequate or sub-par.

[flar]

I think it's a good deal and I think the arrangement has generally been fair for both the university and graduate students. That is exactly my larger point, in response to those who think TAs are overpaid. That said, the rate of pay does have to keep up with the times, to keep things fair. University administrations have taken a more adversarial position vis a vis the labour of TAs in recent years. They need to cut costs. On the other side, the fact that a strike action by TAs is an effective bargaining chip suggests that their labour is worth something to the university. The most obvious public relations ploy for university admin is to keep pointing out that TAs make $39/hour, which the public associates with the stereotypical image of lazy graduate students hiding from the real world. I'm just trying to show that the relationship is not as simple as it appears. It's being played out as a standard labour vs management thing, but it's not.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by flar

I think it's a good deal and I think the arrangement has generally been fair for both the university and graduate students. That is exactly my larger point, in response to those who think TAs are overpaid. That said, the rate of pay does have to keep up with the times, to keep things fair. University administrations have taken a more adversarial position vis a vis the labour of TAs in recent years. They need to cut costs. On the other side, the fact that a strike action by TAs is an effective bargaining chip suggests that their labour is worth something to the university. The most obvious public relations ploy for university admin is to keep pointing out that TAs make $39/hour, which the public associates with the stereotypical image of lazy graduate students hiding from the real world. I'm just trying to show that the relationship is not as simple as it appears. It's being played out as a standard labour vs management thing, but it's not.

Thanks for clarifying. I can see how the figure might lend itself to hyperbole, which is unfortunate.

Part of the union's complaint as I understand it has to do with employee benefits, which are indeed somewhat lacking compared to other universities - even those enjoyed by members of other undergraduate unions. Were I still a member of the Mac union, I would probably, in the interests of cutting costs in what is an extraordinarily top-heavy institution, be willing to accept a marginal cut in wages ($1-2 per hour, for instance) in exchange for a more competitive benefits package. It would be reasonable, however, to see some other grad student and faculty entitlements trimmed as well - those hors d'oeuvres come to mind. . .

[SteelTown]

Mac, union return to table
Picket lines comes down after less than two hours

November 02, 2009
Dana Brown
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/664928

Striking teaching and research assistants are pulling back from the picket lines after agreeing to go back to talks with McMaster University.

A union spokesman said the lines - which stopped traffic from the Sterling entrance all the way back to King Street - were to come down at 9:01 a.m. Information pickets will remain on the Sterling and Cootes entrances, but traffic will not be held up.

McMaster made an offer to the union early this morning. Members of the Canadian Union of Public Employees took a look and agreed to return to the table. picketing was to stop while the sides continued to talk.

[drpgq]

As a six year TA at Mac I agree with Flar that tuition and TA pay is related. Mac can manipulate graduate school tuition and certainly did when I was there.

I think an important issue that hasn't been mentioned is the fifth year doctoral funding.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by Blurr

$40 an hour for TA's is far from the real world. There is such an oversupply of qualified people (ie 20 somethings with degrees/qualifications not wanting to do real work, making $120 a day part time) that the current wage would be blown away to the basement in the open market.

An issue just as infuriating is the timing. Right at a time when the economy is hurting and people are just getting by the union chooses to pull the plug, displaying their ignorance to reality. This is also tragic for a university that just had a bad showing the Times Higher Education Rankings. It is unfortunate that they can't pull together for the betterment of the University and Hamilton and instead are selfish and continue to dream in outer space.

The thing you are missing is that TA's are not making $40 an hour even if it looks like that. I was a TA during my MSc in Edinburgh. I had to teach a class of 10 students for an hour and I got paid 11 pounds for the two one hour sessions. So for two hours a day I made the equivalent of $45 Canadian. It sounds pretty sweet, but you can't just walk into a class of smart undergrads and say whatever comes to your mind. I spent 6 unpaid hours preparing my lecture notes, reading their materials and developing questions to help them learn.

Instead of $22 an hour, it was more like $9 an hour. I don't imagine the world if full of too many qualified people willing to work for a wage like that.

[sofasurfer]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

I spent 6 unpaid hours preparing my lecture notes, reading their materials and developing questions to help them learn.

As does everyone else... it's not fair, period - but that's the way academia works.

At least in the UK, the amount of vacation time in a typical academic contract is obscenely generous - even by UK standards
(well, it always was in the contracts I had from the mid-90s til just over a year ago)

I'm not saying that the CUPE folks don't have a legit reason for their actions, but a bit of half-decent messaging strategy on the part of their leadership wouldn't go amiss. Same could have been said on the part of CAW recently.