Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[red-paladin]

I have an interesting question. Do you guys feel that once the Millennium line is extended to UBC, Vancouver will have all the skytrain lines and stations that it needs? (I mean just Vancouver). Do you think we should have the Expo Line go east to Ballanyne Pier or down Hastings? Do you think Streetcars will be sufficient if they circle the downtown and maybe go down Arbutus?

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I have an interesting question. Do you guys feel that once the Millennium line is extended to UBC, Vancouver will have all the skytrain lines and stations that it needs? (I mean just Vancouver). Do you think we should have the Expo Line go east to Ballanyne Pier or down Hastings? Do you think Streetcars will be sufficient if they circle the downtown and maybe go down Arbutus?

I think that might be more of a transit fantasies question. I'm not holding my breath for this one but I think the only likely additional route in Vancouver would be an extension of the Expo Line along Hastings to an eventual terminus at the PNE. From there, who knows. Maybe extend it all the way to the base of Burnaby Mountain and connect up to SFU with another B-Line/#145-type shuttle. Maybe a line could connect Metrotown to the Millennium Line and the hypothetical Hastings Expo line extension via Willingdon Ave. It would hit BCIT on the way which would be a killer trip generator.

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by officedweller

From Metro Newspaper today:

Nice write up on the London Underground. In addition to the Underground, there is the London Overground, the Docklands Light Railway, Croydon Tramlink and of course many many national rail lines; all together within London boundaries there are around 700 stations. Areas not served by the Tube are usually well served by the National Rail services which operate almost as frequently as the Underground. The Oyster pass or travelcards are valid on any of the services (well, Oyster is not yet accepted on some rail services, but Transport for London is working on that) - the travelcard certainly is valid.

Use a travelcard to go to Greenwich on the Underground and DLR and then return to London on the National Rail trains from Greenwich Station (trains are frequent). You can use National Rail trains as express services where they parallel parts of the Underground.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by CLC

While everyone agrees that density matter, I don't think whether the system have been "around for ages" has any correlation to success. Shenzhen (a booming city bordering Hongkong China) subway just got started in 2004 and is arguably operating even smoother than Hongkong MTR (yes Hongkong MTR already shows its sign of aging, with serious technical delays more often this year than ever).

I guess "around for ages" wasn't the best choice of words What I meant is all of those systems started off with one single line and grew from there. They didn't do it in 20 years. They grew and expanded as time went on. So by "ages" I mean they didn't just suddenly become the systems they are today.

Originally Posted by delboy

London, or New York for that matter, wouldn't be able to afford their extensive systems today had they have not been built when they were.

True they didn't just get all built out at once. They expanded as time went on. Example the Underground started in 1836. That is 173 years go. I wonder what our system will be like in 2159?

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I have an interesting question. Do you guys feel that once the Millennium line is extended to UBC, Vancouver will have all the skytrain lines and stations that it needs? (I mean just Vancouver). Do you think we should have the Expo Line go east to Ballanyne Pier or down Hastings? Do you think Streetcars will be sufficient if they circle the downtown and maybe go down Arbutus?

Personally I feel they need a line down Hastings and sometime in the future probably a line down 41st. Maybe not today. But I get the feel a majority of single family homes will be gone in Vancouver sometime in the future. Causing an increase in density and need for more lines.

I'd also say they may even need another line or two going north or south at some point. But again this all depends on population growth and where it is.

[metroXpress]

Originally Posted by cabotp

True they didn't just get all built out at once. They expanded as time went on. Example the Underground started in 1836. That is 173 years go. I wonder what our system will be like in 2159?

Something we can't recognize?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

I have an interesting question. Do you guys feel that once the Millennium line is extended to UBC, Vancouver will have all the skytrain lines and stations that it needs? (I mean just Vancouver). Do you think we should have the Expo Line go east to Ballanyne Pier or down Hastings? Do you think Streetcars will be sufficient if they circle the downtown and maybe go down Arbutus?

I too think one day there will be a very urgent need for a Skytrain line down Hastings. The area is being gentrified and many of the bus routes that travel that corridor are the most popular outside of the Broadway Corridor. Along Hastings into Burnaby, the street is very well built up and is continuing to see growth. I think it would be an amazing trip generator if Skytrain went from Waterfront, down Hastings, then down Willingdon, to Metrotown. Willingdon and Hastings are some of the busiest roads in Burnaby, and BCIT has thousands of daily students (and night students) clamoring for better transit service. The service would also be killer during the PNE, offering easy access to the fair from the East, breathing life into the event for another 100 years.

I also think there should be thought given to extending Skytrain under the West End and Kits. Imagine a spur that could connect the UBC Extension at Arbutus, travel under Arbutus passing 4th ave and Kits beach, under English bay, and hit the West End and Coal Harbour/Western Financial district and connect to Waterfront station. Kits -> downtown is a popular commute as evident by the traffic on Burrard Bridge.

You could have the UBC extension spur at Arbutus and head North, or you could extend the Canada Line (if it's physically possible) to curve around under downtown and the West End and terminate at Arbutus (linking Kits to Yaletwon on a one seat ride), or you can launch a whole new line that could travel from Arbutus&Broadway through downtown/Waterfront and on down Hastings.

I think UBC+Hastings/BCIT+West End/Kits would push the system over a million boardings a day, easily. And it would really help build up the density in the urban center while keeping prices from skyrocketing (the more stations, the less special being near one is = less price inflation).

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I too think one day there will be a very urgent need for a Skytrain line down Hastings. The area is being gentrified and many of the bus routes that travel that corridor are the most popular outside of the Broadway Corridor. Along Hastings into Burnaby, the street is very well built up and is continuing to see growth. I think it would be an amazing trip generator if Skytrain went from Waterfront, down Hastings, then down Willingdon, to Metrotown. Willingdon and Hastings are some of the busiest roads in Burnaby, and BCIT has thousands of daily students (and night students) clamoring for better transit service. The service would also be killer during the PNE, offering easy access to the fair from the East, breathing life into the event for another 100 years.

I also think there should be thought given to extending Skytrain under the West End and Kits. Imagine a spur that could connect the UBC Extension at Arbutus, travel under Arbutus passing 4th ave and Kits beach, under English bay, and hit the West End and Coal Harbour/Western Financial district and connect to Waterfront station. Kits -> downtown is a popular commute as evident by the traffic on Burrard Bridge.

Trofirhen and I were brainstorming and idea for a single line to serve these areas not to long ago for the transit fantasy's thread... Unfortunately thread went missing and the idea kinda died. I personally don't think having spur-lines from existing routes is the wisest plan in building these lines, and that a whole new ring-line would best serve the Hastings corridor, East Van, PNE, BCIT, West Burnaby, South Van, Arbutus corridor (serving as alternative for what will someday be a cramped Canada line), the West End, etc.

You could have the UBC extension spur at Arbutus and head North, or you could extend the Canada Line (if it's physically possible) to curve around under downtown and the West End and terminate at Arbutus (linking Kits to Yaletwon on a one seat ride), or you can launch a whole new line that could travel from Arbutus&Broadway through downtown/Waterfront and on down Hastings.

Physically impossible unfortunately. In hindsight I think it would have been a good idea to have it serve more of the downtown peninsula and False Creek area.

[red-paladin]

The province provides a summary of the Benefits of ALRT on the Evergreen Line page:

# Why was the technology for the Evergreen Line changed from Light Rail Transit (LRT) to Advanced Light Rapid Transit (ALRT)?

* The Business Case, released February 1, 2008, recommends Advanced Light Rapid Transit (ALRT) because it:
o will carry two and a half times the ridership of LRT (based on 2021 ridership modelling), ensuring it will meet current and future demand and support The Provincial Transit Plan goal of doubling ridership by 2020
o will enable faster travel times and can operate with greater frequency
o will seamlessly connect to the current SkyTrain network, including the Expo and Millennium Lines, and can integrate with the Canada Line and regional bus and West Coast Express network and move people almost twice as fast as LRT technology

# What is the difference between Advanced Light Rapid Transit (ALRT) and Light Rapid Transit (LRT)?

* ALRT (SkyTrain) is automated and driverless and runs primarily along an elevated guideway, thus avoiding the potential for conflict with vehicular traffic inherent with at-grade LRT operations particularly at intersections. ALRT has greater capacity than LRT and also provides the opportunity for full integration with the existing SkyTrain system which would eliminate the need for passengers to transfer at Lougheed Station.
* LRT (Light Rail Transit) is a driver-operated system. Vehicles operate within a largely at-grade and segregated right-of-way with grade-level crossings at intersections requiring signal priority.

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/evergreen_line/faq.htm

It appears at least that the BC and Canada Governments are on our side. So I would expect that they would have the exact same opinion about the UBC extension.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

It appears at least that the BC and Canada Governments are on our side. So I would expect that they would have the exact same opinion about the UBC extension.

I think you'd have to add "current" to the sentence above. The problem is we will potentially have different parties in power by the time the bidding/construction phase comes around, at least for the UBC line. They could change the technology, scrap the whole thing, or whatever. Often they change things just so they are seen not to agree with the previous government (who is almost always unpopular at that point).

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think you'd have to add "current" to the sentence above.

I'll give it a go:

It appears current at least that the BC and Canada Governments are on current, our side. So I would expect currants. That they (current) would have the exact same opinion about the UBC extension current.

I went a little { current } crazy.

[WarrenC12]

That reply was not current enough.

[andcarne]

News coming out today seems to suggest that UBC's Underground Bus Loop plans have finally been scrapped. (http://www2.ams.ubc.ca/index.php/ams/new...bus_loop_students_demand_accountability/) Seeing as this will necessitate a rethinking of UBC's transportation hubs, I wonder if there's a way to tie in the UBC Line?

I can't recall the exact proposed cost of the underground loop, but maybe some of those funds could be reserved or directed to help pay for part of the UBC portion of a skytrain line?

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by andcarne

News coming out today seems to suggest that UBC's Underground Bus Loop plans have finally been scrapped. (http://www2.ams.ubc.ca/index.php/ams/new...bus_loop_students_demand_accountability/) Seeing as this will necessitate a rethinking of UBC's transportation hubs, I wonder if there's a way to tie in the UBC Line?

I can't recall the exact proposed cost of the underground loop, but maybe some of those funds could be reserved or directed to help pay for part of the UBC portion of a skytrain line?

Good news in a way, because the current version of the proposal is simply too small to even meet current needs.

[deasine]

I smell good news.

[AlexYVR]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Good news in a way, because the current version of the proposal is simply too small to even meet current needs.

When the motion was passed, the tunnel would have cost 20 million with the station costing another 20.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by andcarne

News coming out today seems to suggest that UBC's Underground Bus Loop plans have finally been scrapped. (http://www2.ams.ubc.ca/index.php/ams/new...bus_loop_students_demand_accountability/) Seeing as this will necessitate a rethinking of UBC's transportation hubs, I wonder if there's a way to tie in the UBC Line?

I can't recall the exact proposed cost of the underground loop, but maybe some of those funds could be reserved or directed to help pay for part of the UBC portion of a skytrain line?

... it took you that long after you started creeping to post?

[andcarne]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

... it took you that long after you started creeping to post?

Yes. In case you haven't noticed, I tend to be rather busy with other things.

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Good news in a way, because the current version of the proposal is simply too small to even meet current needs.

I agree. At the last open house regarding their plans, I still had many questions about capacity that they did not have satisfactory answers for.

I'm very curious as to what will be done instead. There are still issues with the current 'temporary' loop that need to be addressed. I've fired off a pointed email to some of the UBC planning admin with a laundry list of questions and some specific inquiries about UBC Line planning. If anything interesting turns up I'll post something.

[mooks28]

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/20...-tube-could-this-be-deja-vu-for-skytrain

The man is off his rocker. This is ridiculously irresponsible and fear-mongering.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by mooks28

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/20...-tube-could-this-be-deja-vu-for-skytrain

The man is off his rocker. This is ridiculously irresponsible and fear-mongering.

Actually, it's fear-mongering based on corporate propaganda. The video was produced by a company that is trying to inject some fear into a Seattle mayoral race in which the two candidates have similar policy views, except for the fate of the Alaskan Way Viaduct (anyone who has ever been to the western part of downtown Seattle has seen this monstrosity--maybe this is the type of Viaduct some of you would like built out from our downtown to connect to Highway 1).

The construction firm Parsons Brinckerhoff really wants the residents of Seattle to vote for Seattle's own version of the "Big Dig". The "Big Dig", was a massive project that ended up tearing down about 6 kilometres of elevated expressway (I-93), that had to that point separated downtown Boston from its North End. The elevated expressway was replaced by a tunnel that was built beneath the streets of downtown Boston. The "Big Dig" itself was rife with corruption, cronyism, went way over-budget (original 1985 cost was 2.8 Billion USD, and ended up costing 8.8 Billion USD--in 1985 dollars). Moreover, according to the Boston Globe, the project will end up costing an additional 7 Billion USD in interest alone. One thing is for certain, however, the construction industry--including Parsons Brinckerhoff--made out like bandits. Now they want the citizens of Seattle to gift them a new gold mine in the form of a Puget Sound "big dig".

More here:

[mooks28]

Originally Posted by mrjauk

Actually, it's fear-mongering based on corporate propaganda. The video was produced by a company that is trying to inject some fear into a Seattle mayoral race in which the two candidates have similar policy views, except for the fate of the Alaskan Way Viaduct (anyone who has ever been to the western part of downtown Seattle has seen this monstrosity--maybe this is the type of Viaduct some of you would like built out from our downtown to connect to Highway 1).

Oh, I know about Seattle and the viaduct issue (notwithstanding the fact that it is already structurally compromised), but to suggest that Skytrain is bad because it is going to fall down in an earthquake and that this reason is somehow a viable argument against skytrain in the first place is ridiculous. If that was the case, every bridge or elevated structure is an imminent danger and we should all be living in tents. Utterly ridiculous.