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  #2661  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2009, 11:47 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by Franky View Post
If the tunnel extends all the way to Lees ave., do you think there would be enough room now to run a tunnel from Nicholas to the Macdonald Cartier bridge using the same oval TBM resulting in 3 truck lanes to bypass King-Edward and centre-town? We've had a few deaths and close calls that could be avoided with a tunnel. About $100M/km for 2 km or about $200M, probably a bit more. Maybe Richard's idea of purchasing the TBM would make sense in this case or at least getting some sort of package deal?

4-lanes in a single bore:

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/northwestvoices/2009/04/23/tunnel_to_replace_viaduct.html

16.5 m diameter! 214 m^2; 214,000 m^3/km 214/140*45 = ~$70M/km (+$35M/km for ventilation, asphalt) more for the support structure, but 4 lanes.
That would be a totally separate project, but badly needed as well.
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  #2662  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2009, 11:49 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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What is the minimum tunnel depth possible if it was cut-and-cover under Slater Street? (accounting for drainage)
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  #2663  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2009, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Rathgrith View Post
My head hurts reading things like this.
Code:
             +---------------------------+
             |          station          |
-------------+                           +-----------------------------------------------------------
   \              buses stop here             /
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -     ---------------------------------------------------
                                               /                                    \   passing lane
---------------------------------------------     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -     ---------------
                                                /          buses stop here        \
----------------------------------------------------+                          +---------------------
                                                    |          station         |
                                                    +--------------------------+
The "/" lane shifts would obviously be smoother.
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  #2664  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:12 AM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby View Post
The Younge line in Toronto has 130m long platforms and only uses 120m worth. If Ottawa thinks it needs that much capacity in the next 100 years given the development restrictions downtown, I would be very surprised. New York City's longest trains use 180m platforms, while most are 130m trains.
TTC platforms are 150 metres (500 feet) long.. the new T1 6-car trains are about 140 metres long, existing are slightly shorter. They have been considering trying to add a seventh car among other options to further increase capcity. http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009/cc/bgrd/backgroundfile-18782.pdf.

I guess the rationale would be that the 180 m platforms will basically offer us the capacity of subway (for the future) with the flexibility of LRT (although personally I don't like the 'heavy rail' and 'light rail' terminology.. )

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  #2665  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:11 AM
Suzie Suzie is offline
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
You're starting to sound like Andy Haydon.

A bus tunnel would have to be wide enough for two lanes. That's a lot more material to pull out. We may even need two of them (if the 1988 study is followed, which it likely would be). The stations would probably be built with two lanes per direction, though it'll prove pointless. The stations themselves will have to be side-loaded, so no cost savings there. The way DOTT has increased, I doubt the bus tunnel(s) would come in at less than $1B.
If the bus tunnel is only meant to be a medium-term fix (i.e., it will be eventually converted to rail), then one three-lane tunnel would probably be sufficient. If, on the other hand, it were meant to be a long-term fix, I would strongly recommend that two two-lane tunnels be built in order to maximize capacity. That, combined with careful station design and measures to reduce dwell times, would allow the tunnel to accommodate at least 300 articulated buses per hour per direction (i.e., serve both Ottawa and Gatineau demand).

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The worst of it all though is that it won't solve congestion nearly as much as people think it will. People keep thinking that it's the cross streets that cause the delays, but they're not the biggest source of problems. It's simple dwell time. It always has been. Tunney's Pasture Station already suffers from minor westbound jams in the evenings, and it has a lot less loading than will the downtown stations, which, if the logic of the DOTT applies, will only be two in number and therefore really busy.
I agree that dwell times is the main problem (although poor station design ranks as a close second). What has OC Transpo done to reduce dwell times? Well, surprisingly little. Can more be done? Absolutely. It is well-known that to substantially reduce dwell times, you need the following:

One, fare payment prior to boarding. I think most people acknowledge that this would make a big difference. I remember that, a few weeks ago, you posted in another forum an article on the bus tunnel that was written 20 years ago. Here’s a quote from the article that caught my eye: "The other report, tabled Wednesday, recommended ways to extend the life of the current bus lanes on Albert and Slater Streets. It says construction of a tunnel can be delayed as long as 16 years by timing traffic signals to favor the bus lanes, installing passenger information screens at bus stops and allowing passengers to prepay cash or ticket fares at the bus stops." I’ll be generous and assume that they implemented the timing of the traffic signals. However, 20-years later, they still have not implemented fare payment prior to boarding, nor have they installed passenger information screens at bus stops, even though they acknowledged that it would produce a large increase in capacity.

Two, no interaction between drivers and users. I cannot stress how critical this is. The last time I had to board a bus at Hurdman every bus (#85, #106, etc.) that stopped at platform 1C was besieged by people wanting to know why their feeder bus was late and where it was. A whole platform was shut down for a period of ten minutes during the tail end of the PM peak because of this. This inevitably resulted in a serious bus jam affecting all of the platforms and delays for hundreds, if not thousands, of riders.

Three, all-door boarding. Ideally, you should have four large doors on every articulated bus (two in the front and two in the back). However, Ottawa could get by with the current three-door models until they needed to be replaced.

Four, leveled boarding. This would be the hardest to implement since you would probably need a fleet of new buses with ramps on every door that could be deployed quickly (à la Curitiba). Short and medium term, you could get away without it, but eventually you would need it.

Five, simplify routes. OC Transpo and STO would need to simplify their network and use a modified version of hub-and-spoke. In the central area (i.e., between Bayview and Hurdman), there would probably be five or so regular routes and five or so trunk express routes.

All of these measures (except for trunk express routes) have been adopted by rail rapid transit systems and that’s because they dramatically reduce dwell times. If you do the above, you’ll get bus dwell times below 15 seconds, even at the busiest stops during peak periods.

Quote:
The interesting thing about the failures at Tunney's is how useless the passing lane actually becomes. Once the platform is full of buses, drivers arriving have little choice but to join the queue since they can't tell if there are passengers to pick up or not without going past the platform (since westbound express routes pick up passengers at Tunney's, virtually all buses have to go past the platform). If the platform isn't full, they can sometimes overtake some of the buses that are there and stop, but once the platform fills up that option disappears. Drivers arriving later won't overtake those who are already waiting while those already in the queue can't necessarily see when a spot opens up. Luckily the jams usually clear at Tunney's because even though all express drivers go past to see if anyone wants to get on, not every one actually ends up needing to stop. But downtown - that will not be the case. Every bus will stop every time and the passing lanes will only be of marginal benefit. In a way, even John Bonsall realized this in November 2007 when he suggested in his promotion of bus tunnels that two lanes were not necessary at stations in the tunnels (though he forgot about the need to be able to pass disabled buses in the narrow bore tunnels).
The Tunney’s Pasture situation that you describe flows from OC Transpo’s failure to implement measures that would minimize dwell times (see above) and poor station design. In the case of the latter, there is insufficient space between 1A and 1B (westbound platforms) and thus, during the peak, a bus wanting to stop at 1B has difficulty overtaking buses that are stopped at 1A. Best practices guides suggest that the spacing between platforms should be at least 30 metres. Tunney’s Pasture is nowhere near that. With smart station design, the passing lanes become very useful and also allow trunk expresses to bypass most stations.

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The tunnels approaching either side of the Downtown East station would be clogged up with buses because the passenger loadings of ~2.5 current stations (Metcalfe, Bank and some of Kent) would be going through the East station. The congestion problem would just be moved underground, out of sight and out of mind.
The busier stations, such as Downtown East and Rideau Centre, would need to have three platforms in each direction and be close to 200 metres in length. Platform 1 (to be used by regular OC Transpo routes) and Platform 2 (to be used by trunk express routes) would each have two stopping bays, while Platform 3 (to be used by regular STO routes) would only have one stopping bay. There would be sufficient distance between the platforms (i.e., 30 metres) to provide for queuing space and allow buses to easily overtake each other. With such a set-up, the station could serve five articulated buses at the same time and maintain low dwell times. Dedicating routes to specific platforms would lower the number of routes per platform (to five or less) and thus help reduce the amount of jockeying that occurs (all-door boarding and fare pre-payment would also help in this regard).

Less busy stations would be much smaller (with perhaps only one platform since they would be bypassed by trunk expresses).

Personally, I would bite the bullet and add an extra station (Downtown Central). By doing that, you could downsize Downtown West and have trunk express routes bypass it.

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And so the current high-cost model would persist.
You must mean high operating costs. That is the only real downside that I can find with a properly-designed bus tunnel.
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  #2666  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:13 AM
Suzie Suzie is offline
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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
Plus there's no guarantee the bus drivers even live in Ottawa, they may live in Gatineau, Casselman, Russell etc.
One should note, however, that the same is true for construction workers.
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  #2667  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:45 AM
Suzie Suzie is offline
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
BRT and the "trunk and branches" approach has failed to deliver TOD because the very important factor in TOD is the "friction" of passengers transferring or changing modes.

If this project is to follow the pattern of other urban rail, it will easily attract twice its value in TOD. I could see Gloucester Centre and St-Laurent alone spending hundreds of millions to expand, and more buildings being built downtown and all along the line. $5 billion in other related construction (entirely done by the private sector) is not inconceiveable, and at with a tax rate of about 1.5% to 2%, additional taxes equivalent to the cost of the tunnel could be returned to the city within 25 years.
Where does the notion that a rail system, particularly one that would produce little if any travel time savings (no matter what the City claims) and would be so limited in its coverage, would have such major impacts on development come from? I don't understand.

Yes, there is a transit capacity issue downtown, but the rail tunnel plan is not the only option that could address this.

Also, I seriously doubt that building a rail line with a tunnel would provoke a stampede of employers towards downtown, retailers towards St Laurent/Gloucester Centre and people towards 40-storey condo buildings at Hurdman.

Even if one is very generous and assumes that the rail stations would attract significant development over and above what would have happened without the line/tunnel, this would come at the expense of other areas of the City. On a net basis, it's a wash. The same thing would be true with respect to property values -- the increase in property values near the stations would also be offset by lower values elsewhere.
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  #2668  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 2:23 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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^ Rail bias, and the subsequent development effect have been described in many academic papers. I think Portland's Streetcar line is the en vogue example to use these days, since before it was put it there was a bus that provided the exact same service, at the same intervals, same fare.

After the rail line went in if my memory is correct around $3 billion dollars worth of development in the vicinity that academics have attributed to the streetcar.

Of course rail doesn't create development from a vacuum, it just changes where it is, and what build form it takes. However, since the build form ends up generating positive externalities while reducing negative ones this change is viewed as a positive.

This can be observed in downtown Toronto when you compared the development radiating out on streetcar streets vs non streetcar streets.

In the end it is either a cultural or instinctual bias that effects our choices. Either you can fight the choices and try to implement the optimal solution, or embrace it and choose the one that will result in the best outcome for society (the most surplus generated). There is a reason the market created streetcar suburbs and not motorbus suburbs back when the free market dictated much more of our mass transportation choices.

As for property values, improvements in one area do not reduce values in others. That would be true in a closed system with a fixed money supply, but our system is open with an ever expanding money supply. Plus adding rail is a real improvement, which creates real value. It is like saying a computer chip is not worth more than its elemental components, and that if it was worth more, then the rest of sand and metals is worth even less. We know this isn't true since you can create value by transforming things with labour. Plus, if your consuming a good and the supply is fixed the price should go up. If the rail system gets intensive enough I am sure there will be extra value for being far away from any rail for the small subset that doesn't enjoy superior transportation choices.
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  #2669  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 2:34 AM
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If you want a visual, someone did one for Toronto in another forum

And it is not "a wash", because in the end TOD is far cheaper to service than far flung development. Why else would planners be advocating it?
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  #2670  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 2:37 AM
Gitfiddler Gitfiddler is offline
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Originally Posted by Suzie View Post
Where does the notion that a rail system, particularly one that would produce little if any travel time savings (no matter what the City claims) and would be so limited in its coverage, would have such major impacts on development come from? I don't understand.

Yes, there is a transit capacity issue downtown, but the rail tunnel plan is not the only option that could address this.

Also, I seriously doubt that building a rail line with a tunnel would provoke a stampede of employers towards downtown, retailers towards St Laurent/Gloucester Centre and people towards 40-storey condo buildings at Hurdman.

Even if one is very generous and assumes that the rail stations would attract significant development over and above what would have happened without the line/tunnel, this would come at the expense of other areas of the City. On a net basis, it's a wash. The same thing would be true with respect to property values -- the increase in property values near the stations would also be offset by lower values elsewhere.
If it's a reliable, efficient transit service, it will spur development in close proximity. It's happened in other places. It's not necessarily development that wouldn't have happened anyway, but the where and the how can be affected.

If it has that effect, I say great. As much as you might look at it as a neutral trade-off, the fact is that anything which encourages development inside the greenbelt is a good thing. If a rail system makes a highrise residential proposal suddenly more attractive in the core than in the suburbs, then that's a net win for a sustainable city.

I think your ideas about a bus tunnel are worth at least looking into, so long as the option to upgrade to rail in the future was there.

But I do think that a rail tunnel, as a psychological thing for the city, could have a very big effect. Underground rail of any type is has a distinctly urban feel to it. It's something that a "grown-up" city would have.

If it can be done, and done well, it could have a net benefit of helping the city actually start thing like a grown up city, rather than an insecure, wafffling, pimply-faced teenager.
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  #2671  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 3:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Gitfiddler View Post

But I do think that a rail tunnel, as a psychological thing for the city, could have a very big effect. Underground rail of any type is has a distinctly urban feel to it. It's something that a "grown-up" city would have.

If it can be done, and done well, it could have a net benefit of helping the city actually start thing like a grown up city, rather than an insecure, wafffling, pimply-faced teenager.
You were so rational up until this point. "urban feel", "grown up" vs. "insecure, wafffling, pimply-faced teenager"? What does that all mean? Ottawa is a nice place the way it is, thank you very much. Making it more "big city" like, like every other city, isn't a good thing. In fact, keeping green space, trees and the scale down to a human level are very important to the uniqueness and value of this city.
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  #2672  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 3:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby View Post
^ Rail bias, and the subsequent development effect have been described in many academic papers. I think Portland's Streetcar line is the en vogue example to use these days, since before it was put it there was a bus that provided the exact same service, at the same intervals, same fare.

After the rail line went in if my memory is correct around $3 billion dollars worth of development in the vicinity that academics have attributed to the streetcar.

Of course rail doesn't create development from a vacuum, it just changes where it is, and what build form it takes. However, since the build form ends up generating positive externalities while reducing negative ones this change is viewed as a positive.

This can be observed in downtown Toronto when you compared the development radiating out on streetcar streets vs non streetcar streets.

In the end it is either a cultural or instinctual bias that effects our choices. Either you can fight the choices and try to implement the optimal solution, or embrace it and choose the one that will result in the best outcome for society (the most surplus generated). There is a reason the market created streetcar suburbs and not motorbus suburbs back when the free market dictated much more of our mass transportation choices.

As for property values, improvements in one area do not reduce values in others. That would be true in a closed system with a fixed money supply, but our system is open with an ever expanding money supply. Plus adding rail is a real improvement, which creates real value. It is like saying a computer chip is not worth more than its elemental components, and that if it was worth more, then the rest of sand and metals is worth even less. We know this isn't true since you can create value by transforming things with labour. Plus, if your consuming a good and the supply is fixed the price should go up. If the rail system gets intensive enough I am sure there will be extra value for being far away from any rail for the small subset that doesn't enjoy superior transportation choices.
Not everyone agrees:
"When judged by the results rather than the intentions, the costs of Portland's planning far outweigh the benefits. Planners made housing unaffordable to force more people to live in multifamily housing or in homes on tiny lots. They allowed congestion to increase to near–gridlock levels to force more people to ride the region's expensive rail transit lines. They diverted billions of dollars of taxes from schools, fire, public health, and other essential services to subsidize the construction of transit and high–density housing projects."
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8463
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  #2673  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 3:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
On another note: What do you think of OC Transpo's plan to remove the main West-East route, the 118, from Baseline Station?

In mid-November the Constellation Cr. intersection with Baseline Rd. will be finished. With the Nov. 22 bus changes the 118 will begin using Constellation-Station-College-Woodroffe-Navaho. (This is why the 118 stops are on the sides they are.) After 2011, the College access will be closed and the 118 will simply travel Constellation-Navaho, without actually going into the temporary Baseline Station.

When the final Baseline Station is built south of College, circ. 2016, the 118 will be about 250 metres away from access to all those North-South Buses. The West-East / North-South link will be permanently severed.

OK, if you want to go north from the 118 stop on Navaho, you could walk across the Algonquin parkette and go down to the train, but the train's platform will not extend all the way to Navaho. You will probably have to wait until 2023 before the train comes along, but that is a different story.

This is an excellent example showing how OC Transpo is designing a system which can efficiently move buses, but is not necessarily efficient for the passengers.
The city is seeing a cash crunch coming from the transit system. That is why the emphasis for LRT is not on improving service, but to move passengers more efficiently. Also, the alternate service model to be implemented with LRT is about moving passengers cheaper while trying to mitigate ridership losses. Now we see this. I am sorry, but if this is to be a major transfer point, 250 metres between bus stops is ridiculous.

I am really surprised that others find this acceptable. Remember, we have an aging society. All I am seeing is longer walks to bus stops, to LRT stations and at transfer points. Will this not also put more pressure on even more expensive Paratranspo services if more older and disabled people cannot walk far enough to use regular bus service?

I thought the whole purpose of building expensive rapid transit projects is to clearly make transit more attractive to more people. Has Ottawa lost its way on this? I think so.
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  #2674  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 4:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Suzie View Post
Where does the notion that a rail system, particularly one that would produce little if any travel time savings (no matter what the City claims) and would be so limited in its coverage, would have such major impacts on development come from? I don't understand.

Yes, there is a transit capacity issue downtown, but the rail tunnel plan is not the only option that could address this.

Also, I seriously doubt that building a rail line with a tunnel would provoke a stampede of employers towards downtown, retailers towards St Laurent/Gloucester Centre and people towards 40-storey condo buildings at Hurdman.

Even if one is very generous and assumes that the rail stations would attract significant development over and above what would have happened without the line/tunnel, this would come at the expense of other areas of the City. On a net basis, it's a wash. The same thing would be true with respect to property values -- the increase in property values near the stations would also be offset by lower values elsewhere.
I tend to agree that there will not be a sudden flurry of development. Hurdman is not easily developable. St. Laurent and Gloucester Centre are typical suburban shopping centres. In order to achieve TOD there, will involve building additional parking garages as their retail market clientele will continue to be suburban and will mostly arrive by automobile.
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  #2675  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 6:15 AM
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The tunnel is at $230 mil per KM... I don't think that's out of line with other transit tunnels. Calgary's proposed Stephen Ave tunnel is about $220 per KM according to http://www.calgarymayor.ca/files/pressreleases/2009/2009_economic_stimulus.pdf. Given the recent cost increases to $4.6 billion, Eglinton LRT tunel must be similar. How much would less would the cheap version cost? Building it right the first time will be much cheaper overall than having to just rebuild things in the near future. From what I can see the other stations are all 120m platforms, it's just the underground stations they're futureproofing the tunnel digging out the 180 metres now rather than the headaches of doing it later-on.

A tunnel is a permanent, 100 year plus investment... we need to do it right the first time, especially getting the alignment right.
I think this futureproofing is a wise decision, especially if they just do the excavation. I wonder if the stations would have an effective length of 120m to start, with 30m on either end walled off.

Hey, maybe some intelligent retailer would lease the spaces. Now that would be a high traffic area. And about 10m by 30m would be about 3000 sq ft. And you could probably fit 2 or 3 stories. I could totally see a sports bar doing well in a space like that. Can you imagine a better meeting place for people on the move. And maybe a Hasty Market at the other end of the platform.

I'm a big fan of interesting things nudged into the nooks and crannies of a city.
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  #2676  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 12:47 PM
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. never-mind.
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  #2677  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 1:22 PM
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There's survey concerning the LRT project at www.ottawabusinessjournal.com
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  #2678  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 5:46 PM
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You were so rational up until this point. "urban feel", "grown up" vs. "insecure, wafffling, pimply-faced teenager"? What does that all mean? Ottawa is a nice place the way it is, thank you very much. Making it more "big city" like, like every other city, isn't a good thing. In fact, keeping green space, trees and the scale down to a human level are very important to the uniqueness and value of this city.
Ottawa is a nice city, I agree. But it's also a poorly thought out city with some of the biggest planning disasters in Canada - Lebreton Flats being the most obvious example. Or the Daly Building site that sat empty for 30 years on one of the best pieces of real estate in the city.

Another example - the Green Belt. The idea is a good one - to surround the urban area with preserved nature and so on and so forth. However, now that the city is well beyond the 500,000 envisioned with the Green Belt, the amount of development and population is substantial.

As the city continues to grow, the existence of the Green Belt actually makes it more unsustainable. The commuter distances incurred because of the GB are much longer than they otherwise would be, and this only serves to make this city more and more car dependent. When major developments are done outside of the GB, like SBP, it exacerbates the problem.

The relationship between the city and the NCC is dysfunctional, inflexible and a detriment to the smart growth and development of the city.
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  #2679  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Gitfiddler View Post
Ottawa is a nice city, I agree. But it's also a poorly thought out city with some of the biggest planning disasters in Canada - Lebreton Flats being the most obvious example. Or the Daly Building site that sat empty for 30 years on one of the best pieces of real estate in the city.
Lebreton Flats and the Daly Building site belong to the NCC, not Ottawa?

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Originally Posted by Gitfiddler View Post
Another example - the Green Belt. The idea is a good one - to surround the urban area with preserved nature and so on and so forth. However, now that the city is well beyond the 500,000 envisioned with the Green Belt, the amount of development and population is substantial.

As the city continues to grow, the existence of the Green Belt actually makes it more unsustainable. The commuter distances incurred because of the GB are much longer than they otherwise would be, and this only serves to make this city more and more car dependent. When major developments are done outside of the GB, like SBP, it exacerbates the problem.
Also owned and managed by the National Capital Commission. I don't know enough about the pros and cons, but I see your points about the greenbelt. If anything were done, I would like to see large interconnected parks preserved though.

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The relationship between the city and the NCC is dysfunctional, inflexible and a detriment to the smart growth and development of the city.
On the other hand, anything the city gets it's hands on gets built over (and often with unfortunate consequences) because they see it as a revenue stream. I haven't seen much vision from the city, "bulldoze away" seems to be the motto.
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  #2680  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2009, 6:20 PM
Gitfiddler Gitfiddler is offline
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Lebreton Flats and the Daly Building site belong to the NCC, not Ottawa?
It's still part of Ottawa. Who owns what is not important. Claridge owns this lot, NCC owns that, Domicile owns the next. The city needs to do a better job of working with all developers. The relationship with NCC is obviously a more complicated one, but still. . . the Daly site ended up with a condo building on it. That's the best they could do? After all those years?


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Also owned and managed by the National Capital Commission. I don't know enough about the pros and cons, but I see your points about the greenbelt. If anything were done, I would like to see large interconnected parks preserved though.
I would have no issue with that idea. I think the GB is i nice idea, they just did it without taking into account how big the city would get, and especially after amalgamation, and as a result it now acts as a detriment to smart growth of the city.

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On the other hand, anything the city gets it's hands on gets built over (and often with unfortunate consequences) because they see it as a revenue stream. I haven't seen much vision from the city, "bulldoze away" seems to be the motto.
Which is why I said they weren't a grown-up city.
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