Saskatoon Construction

[kgc087]

So I wrote a letter to the editor expressing my feelings regarding promoted public input from Lenore Swystun and I feel like this is an important issue regarding construction in Saskatoon. Here is a link to my letter, let me know what you think, http://www.thestarphoenix.com/opinion/letters/pros+design+city/2131384/story.html. My opinion on public input is clearly stated in the letter.

[circle33]

With all due respect it sounds elitist. While I understand what you are getting at it is rather crass to suggest the public has no business offering any input on elements that affect the quality of their day to day existence. Also, keep in mind that it was the professionals that brought us the endless sprawl that surrounds our (and just about every other North American) city.

I think you need to detach the concept of public input from the personage of Lenore Swystun; one who has the reputation, justified or not, as being against virtually everything.

[midnightrambler]

Originally Posted by kgc087

So I wrote a letter to the editor expressing my feelings regarding promoted public input from Lenore Swystun and I feel like this is an important issue regarding construction in Saskatoon. Here is a link to my letter, let me know what you think, http://www.thestarphoenix.com/opinion/letters/pros+design+city/2131384/story.html. My opinion on public input is clearly stated in the letter.

I would tend to agree with you. Politicians on every level of government are elected to make decisions for us, as opposed to being decision makers only by proxy to the general public. No, we elect them to make decisions. We vote based on their views.

However, there have been some poor decisions made in the past, not only by the public but by city councillors. For one, the city would have a lot more money from taxation on property if the Casino would have been built downtown.

Out of the following cities Saskatoon is the only city without a Casino downtown:

Nearly every city in Canada. Name one over 50,000 people that doesn't.

Even Cities well under 50,000 have Casinos

Are we better off because of it? No we're not, because it still exists, people still gamble, and we as citizens of Saskatoon still have the said burdens but we loose out on the tax revenue that would have been generated. That was an ill-fated example of direct democracy. Referendums don't serve the people, because the general public doesn't spend their entire lives weighing issues and voting on specific issues.

That is just one example I can think of.

There is a lot of small things that have been done wrong that I notice as well. For example Credit Union Centre, it was built back in the late 80's and it's location is rather silly. For one, the amount of parking out there right now is an absolute joke. And wasn't that the reason they built it out there in the first place? I mean I don't expect everyone to drive, there can be park and ride and all that, but let's say 50% of the people that go to the world junior hockey drive, maybe they are coming from North Battleford, or PA or where ever, when they get there they don't park in the paved parking lot at CUC, because it is full. They don't park in the giant mud pit adjacent to CUC because it is full, and too much of a quagmire. They park??? at Costco? All north of Thatcher? It's just ridiculous.
And then when they get in the CUC, the sit up in the nosebleed section where you can only see half the ice.. and the scoreboard is not at center ice because of a cheap out on the design and what not. Then they go to leave and it takes an hour because the access points to CUC are terrible....

They get back into the city and they have to wait for poorly timed lights that only let 5 cars through at a time, where there is a red light camera which has absolutely no traffic going the other way.

It's the little things that make this City Bush league, and it's the job of public input that fixes that. Leave the big decisions to politicians.

[macca]

Originally Posted by kgc087

So I wrote a letter to the editor expressing my feelings regarding promoted public input from Lenore Swystun and I feel like this is an important issue regarding construction in Saskatoon. Here is a link to my letter, let me know what you think, http://www.thestarphoenix.com/opinion/letters/pros+design+city/2131384/story.html. My opinion on public input is clearly stated in the letter.

A major part of planning best practice is public consultation. There is no proper planning without it.

That's not to say that I don't agree with what I believe to be the spirit of your letter; namely that people, in general, seem content with another loop of expressway, another big box mall, another Wal-Mart, and a new national chain deep fry shack to eat at. However, the absence of consultation would yield the same results.

Public consultation doesn't mean a referendum or vote on every decision or turning the professional planner's job over to "the public", likely comprised of some fringe group of zealots with a specific agenda and allowing them to control the destiny of say, River Landing. It is about engaging as much of the populace as possible in a civic brainstorming session. The recent Caswell Hill plan is a prime example. The people of that neighbourhood were given an opportunity to weigh in on the planning of that area's rebirth. It doesn't mean every idea gets implemented, it means that the planners and politicians have a framework that represents, to some extent, the visions and goals of those who will use the area.

I can't imagine that public consultation would have resulted in most of the people saying that wanted Sask Place built as far away from them as possible.

[midnightrambler]

Originally Posted by macca

A major part of planning best practice is public consultation. There is no proper planning without it.

That's not to say that I don't agree with what I believe to be the spirit of your letter; namely that people, in general, seem content with another loop of expressway, another big box mall, another Wal-Mart, and a new national chain deep fry shack to eat at. However, the absence of consultation would yield the same results.

Public consultation doesn't mean a referendum or vote on every decision or turning the professional planner's job over to "the public", likely comprised of some fringe group of zealots with a specific agenda and allowing them to control the destiny of say, River Landing. It is about engaging as much of the populace as possible in a civic brainstorming session. The recent Caswell Hill plan is a prime example. The people of that neighbourhood were given an opportunity to weigh in on the planning of that area's rebirth. It doesn't mean every idea gets implemented, it means that the planners and politicians have a framework that represents, to some extent, the visions and goals of those who will use the area.

I can't imagine that public consultation would have resulted in most of the people saying that wanted Sask Place built as far away from them as possible.

Yeah, I agree, I'm not against public consultaton. There is a delicate balance, sometimes there is too much, sometimes there is too little. You could probably divide the Sask place vote in half, you could probably divide the Casino downtown vote in half. Politics always has two sides, and that is why we have elections.

It took 35 years to get river landing under way, through blah blah blah now we have Sean Shaw claiming we are spending too much money on it. Point blank: I don't care how much it costs, get it done! So I am voting the other way.

[kgc087]

Originally Posted by midnightrambler

Yeah, I agree, I'm not against public consultaton. There is a delicate balance, sometimes there is too much, sometimes there is too little. You could probably divide the Sask place vote in half, you could probably divide the Casino downtown vote in half. Politics always has two sides, and that is why we have elections.

It took 35 years to get river landing under way, through blah blah blah now we have Sean Shaw claiming we are spending too much money on it. Point blank: I don't care how much it costs, get it done! So I am voting the other way.

I'm not saying to rid public consultation, im saying to keep it to a minimum. We have had prime examples of excellent urban planners and architects coming to Saskatoon to share their knowledge and ideas. So we have been recognized as being a spot in the world that still has the potential to totally bypass all of the horrid planning many other cities have. I would rather see the city try to recruit experts like this (I know very wishful thinking) then have acres of public input that really leads to nowhere. I guess what I'm ultimately trying to say is that the system is not efficient with so much input and that we should be looking at advice of highly experienced professionals rather then more input.

[kiwi4life]

Ha i really really want the city to take a look at all these posts, and mayby they will have second thoughts and actually do something with saskatoon, just get it done, whats the risk getting projects underway ect. it will bring people to saskatoon trust me. I know was not a lot a detail bout how that would all work, but something to think bout.

[WhipperSnapper]

Out of the following cities Saskatoon is the only city without a Casino downtown:

Nearly every city in Canada. Name one over 50,000 people that doesn't.

I guess you've never been to Ontario?

[drm310]

Speaking of gambling, does anyone want to place bets on whether Lake Placid pays what it owes for the land by Oct. 30? One week to go... the clock is ticking.

[midnightrambler]

Originally Posted by Sacamano

I guess you've never been to Ontario?

Yeah, never been east of Winnipeg in Canada... I guess they don't really have much in the way of casinos out east? Should have said Western Canada

[midnightrambler]

Originally Posted by kgc087

I'm not saying to rid public consultation, im saying to keep it to a minimum. We have had prime examples of excellent urban planners and architects coming to Saskatoon to share their knowledge and ideas. So we have been recognized as being a spot in the world that still has the potential to totally bypass all of the horrid planning many other cities have. I would rather see the city try to recruit experts like this (I know very wishful thinking) then have acres of public input that really leads to nowhere. I guess what I'm ultimately trying to say is that the system is not efficient with so much input and that we should be looking at advice of highly experienced professionals rather then more input.

Agreed

[socialisthorde]

Originally Posted by kgc087

I'm not saying to rid public consultation, im saying to keep it to a minimum. We have had prime examples of excellent urban planners and architects coming to Saskatoon to share their knowledge and ideas. So we have been recognized as being a spot in the world that still has the potential to totally bypass all of the horrid planning many other cities have. I would rather see the city try to recruit experts like this (I know very wishful thinking) then have acres of public input that really leads to nowhere. I guess what I'm ultimately trying to say is that the system is not efficient with so much input and that we should be looking at advice of highly experienced professionals rather then more input.

I attended a small meeting before the last election which provided an opportunity to discuss issues with Lenore Swystun. Interestingly, my main question for her expressed exactly your concerns about the nature of public opinion (i.e. it is all over the place and often ill informed). I was actually very satisfied with her response which was, to paraphrase, that consultation is important as much because it gets buy-in as it is to get opinioons. She also emphasized that education is an important part of the consultation process and that this does require experts. You will notice that the public is capable of coming around to even very radical ideas if they feel they have been listened to and the rationalle for changes have been well explained. You will also notice that the ideas which last, are the ones the public feels they support. The role of experts in this model is to educate about the long term consequences of various actions, the experience of other places, the model a particular change is based on etc. The role of the public is not to make the final decisions, but to provide "on the ground" experience that the "expert" might lack. For instance, as much as a planner might have a better understanding of faccilitating pedestrian travel, she does not know the specific barriers in my neighborhood (or in my head) to pedestrian travel. Through consultation, these will all be aired, the planner can make a final recomendation and council will decid on implementation. This is the model for Local Area Plans such as the Caswell Hill plan, which I think we all agree worked well. From my understanding, Swystun was instrunmental in implementing the LAP process.

Swystun is herself, accademically trained in development issues and works in the field as a consultant. Therefore she is not anti-intellectual or anti-professional. I don't mean to be an apologist for Swystun, and I in don't even know if I will vote for her, but I think she is mischaracterized and her opinions are misrepresented by the media. She thinks and speaks about issues in a very coherent and holistic way, which is hard to capture in sound bytes, so this makes it easy to misrepresent her statements. I encourage people to attend a frum and hear what she has to say. She makes the current mayor, for all he has done, sound as if he is pulling policy and decisions out of a hat. Anyway, as I said, I am not campaining for Swystun, but I think she and her ideas on public consultation deserve a fair hearing. <steps off soap box>

[Ruckus]

Swystun is such a breath of fresh air. I'm hoping for a shake up at City Hall, get rid of the Free Masons, they have too much power (Mayoral candidate Roger M. Chernoff speaking during the Mayoral Forum @ the U of S).

I think elections are an important aspect of democratic societies, but I also think the fringe candidates this year are fuckin' hilarious

At SIAST...

Photograph by: Richard Marjan, The Star Phoenix. Complete with aluminum taped knuckles, a flowing black wig and a Charlestown Chiefs hockey jersey, mayoralty candidate Johnny Melenchuk did his best Hanson Brothers impression Thursday at a student forum.
Source

[kgc087]

Originally Posted by Ruckus

Swystun is such a breath of fresh air. I'm hoping for a shake up at City Hall, get rid of the Free Masons, they have too much power (Mayoral candidate Roger M. Chernoff speaking during the Mayoral Forum @ the U of S).

I think elections are an important aspect of democratic societies, but I also think the fringe candidates this year are fuckin' hilarious

At SIAST...

Photograph by: Richard Marjan, The Star Phoenix. Complete with aluminum taped knuckles, a flowing black wig and a Charlestown Chiefs hockey jersey, mayoralty candidate Johnny Melenchuk did his best Hanson Brothers impression Thursday at a student forum.
Source

Haha this was so hilarious! Apparently the Queen is the one ultimatley out to steel our dollars ! This debate in a sense was almost useless for all the candidates besides Atch and Swys.

I'm not saying public input is bad or should be removed, I'm saying that it should be kept to a minimum, say once at the start and once mid way through planning and that's it. It really hinders the design process and development of certain projects. As well what the public has to say today may not be inline with what is happening tomorrow. There are design processes happening in other parts of the world (Europe, Asia, Middle East) that are not happening in Canada yet and would be frowned upon. Yes i understand this is from lack of education but honestly Saskatoon's public is just a bit too....oh how do I put this nicely....slow to understand and accept change. I really feel Atch needs one more term of craziness to really pave the way for the north downtown development and other major projects, then it would be nice to have a change. I'm not really interested in, and im sure many of you aren't either, living in a city which is slow moving and just dwells on the past. If it no longer works make something better!

[Ruckus]

Just wanted to share a few things...non-constructed related of course, I'll keep it short (I work at 8am)

Scratch is a definite plus for Saskatoon's night life (the line to get in was BS, but DJ Charly Hustle made up for it ).

Poking fun at Mayor Atchison is approaching a zenith in the blogosphere with a collection of parody news articles from XM301. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about civic politics, more so trying to get people interested in the civic election and civic issues.


Source - Mayor Atchison unveils plan to build pyramid at River Landing

That's all folks, g'nite!

(I think a pyramid would be pretty cool though...rectangles and squares are so boring ).

[lbird]

Originally Posted by kgc087

So I wrote a letter to the editor expressing my feelings regarding promoted public input from Lenore Swystun and I feel like this is an important issue regarding construction in Saskatoon. Here is a link to my letter, let me know what you think, http://www.thestarphoenix.com/opinion/letters/pros+design+city/2131384/story.html. My opinion on public input is clearly stated in the letter.

kgc, I totally agree with you. The public are mostly idiots who can't comprehend the incredible complexity and intellectual rigor behind urban design and planning. Imagine the audacity of a doctor, engineer, small business owner or similar ignorant chump having opinions about neighbourhood layout, especially in a place where they've lived and worked for decades. It's clear that someone with a degree from Ryerson and a couple of years experience is light years ahead of anyone from this hick town.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that this example of housing, planned by experts in the field, with no citizen input, using all local materials and promoting high density living is a great example of what Saskatoon should be shooting for.

[shmakim]

I enjoyed some discussion around the supper table tonight about mayors and megaprojects. Atch's legacy (and I believe he has stated this himself) will be River Landing and the completion of Circle Drive. With Saskatoon's component of RL approaching $100M and the south bridge project estimated at $300M, other large projects (25 St extension, new police station, new library, north bridge, new ring road North and East of the city) require so much time and money to execute, there's no way they could be undertaken and completed under one mayor. If Atch's pet projects are not completed within his time as mayor, will Swystun re-evaluate priority and funding (and ultimately progress and completion) of all of them? Will projects get stalled?

I've appreciated Atch's development and business oriented management of the city, but he's been criticized for excessive spending. Swystun sounds like quite a change but I'm worried she won't be as aggressive or progressive when trying to build Saskatoon into a world-class city. That takes big business and big investment, although supporting local business and arts can create a really unique, involved, interesting urban center.

Maybe Atch could use one more term, if only to kick his projects that much closer to completion. Then again, having recently moved out of the stucco suburb of Erindale to the idyllic Nutana Park, I find my priority for recycling falls much more in line with my neighbours. And it was Atch, recently, who basically brushed off any serious consideration of a city-wide curbside recycling program as impractical. By this point, Saskatoon shouldn't have to come up with any original ideas to implement such a program, as we have so many other cities to look to.

Confused? Rambling? You bet.... sorry, guess I'm just trying to organize my thoughts for the coming election.

[shmakim]

Lake Placid is on the chopping block this week to come up with $4.5 million to pay for their land or risk losing it back to the city. Oct 30 is the final, no-more-extensions deadline to pony up. They've been tight-lipped on their progress, with the last bit of drama occurring when the company's CEO pulled out a cheque book (was it his own personal cheque book?) at a city council meeting to write one for something like $200K to cover the accrued interest. In the absence of any further press releases from them, we have to assume they're still busy frantically trying to secure funding from international investors. Last tidbit mentioned a company supposedly from Cyprus ( historically wartorn island in the Mediterranean, split between Greece and Turkey?), as a potential backer, but no details of the company could be found on the internet.

So where does it go from here?

1. LP finds an (angel) investor to save the project and all remains on schedule.
2. LP manages to collect at least $4.5M in investments to cover the immediate cost of the land, saving their asses for now, and continue to pitch the project, possibly moving ahead on development as they're able.
3. LP misses the deadline:
3a. City takes back the land, and goes back to the drawing board.
3b. City gives them another extension, as there are no competing proposals for the land.

Any other options? Personally, I like (or believe) 2 as "most likely positive outcome". How can this play out?

[Morogolus]

Originally Posted by shmakim

Lake Placid is on the chopping block this week to come up with $4.5 million to pay for their land or risk losing it back to the city. Oct 30 is the final, no-more-extensions deadline to pony up. They've been tight-lipped on their progress, with the last bit of drama occurring when the company's CEO pulled out a cheque book (was it his own personal cheque book?) at a city council meeting to write one for something like $200K to cover the accrued interest. In the absence of any further press releases from them, we have to assume they're still busy frantically trying to secure funding from international investors. Last tidbit mentioned a company supposedly from Cyprus ( historically wartorn island in the Mediterranean, split between Greece and Turkey?), as a potential backer, but no details of the company could be found on the internet.

So where does it go from here?

1. LP finds an (angel) investor to save the project and all remains on schedule.
2. LP manages to collect at least $4.5M in investments to cover the immediate cost of the land, saving their asses for now, and continue to pitch the project, possibly moving ahead on development as they're able.
3. LP misses the deadline:
3a. City takes back the land, and goes back to the drawing board.
3b. City gives them another extension, as there are no competing proposals for the land.

Any other options? Personally, I like (or believe) 2 as "most likely positive outcome". How can this play out?

I'm pretty sure it's dead in the water but we shall see how it plays out. No news is usually bad news when it comes to LP. This deal has been sketchy since the beginning.

Over the years Saskatoon has seen a lot of failed developments. In places like Calgary huge projects get planned, go up and they're done. Here they seem to stall in the planning stages forever and then eventually get scrapped. The Remai building on RL, Lake Placid, The Lighthouse development, The movie theatre they were going to build years ago, the casino, The Cameco building...all projects that were scrapped for various reasons but it seems that developers always run into trouble when trying to build here and as a result our downtown core has looked essentially the same for 20 years. I'm just not sure why Saskatoon has such bad luck with new developments. It's frustrating to say the least, all I can say is thank God for Meridian and The University.

[shmakim]

Originally Posted by Morogolus

Remai building on RL, Lake Placid, The Lighthouse development, The movie theatre they were going to build years ago, the casino, The Cameco building...all projects that were scrapped for various reasons but it seems that developers always run into trouble when trying to build here and as a result our downtown core has looked essentially the same for 20 years. I'm just not sure why Saskatoon has such bad luck with new developments. It's frustrating to say the least, all I can say is thank God for Meridian and The University.

Is there a trend here? Lighthouse: Too expensive. Remai: Not profitable. LP: Poor investor confidence. Casino (downtown I assume): NIMBYism, if I recall. Cameco: uh.... didn't need it? (or was that financial too: built on 11th St cause it's cheaper)

Why can Meridian and university projects go through while others fail?

Would it help if potash revenues went up a billion dollars next year?