YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion - Page 96

twoNeurons · #**1901** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 2:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpongeG

y'all flying out of seattle might like this... - the chart is easier to read at the source but Seattle is getting some improved routes - more competition!

City 1 City 2 Start date Frequency
Seattle Osaka, Japan June 7 Daily

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/10/delta-air-lines-has-laid.html

I wonder if this is a response to AC dropping its route to Osaka. I'm sure Seattleites didn't like having to go to San Francisco either.

trofirhen · #**1902** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 2:23 PM**

At the current rate, in three years, Seattle will have eclipsed Vancouver for everything but domestic Canadian flights, and we'll be crying the blues.
Most of the blame lies with the feds, who breast-feed Ontario and Quebec, but a large part of the blame will be with Vancouverites, and other Western Canadians who sat back and let it happen.

Almost nobody is lobbying the federal government, of which the current Transport Minister is the Hon. John Baird, and I wonder how many people have written to their MPs, asking them to lobby on our behalf. Knowing us Canadians, we'll mostly sit aorund going "pretty bad, eh?" ..... while Vancouver Airport gradually assumes second-tier status internationally.

Too bad we don't have that good ol' American "go-gettership." We don't. We're Canadians, and can't seem to take a proactive approach to things we, in fact, COULD change if we WERE more aggressive and proactive.

jlousa · #**1903** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 2:38 PM**

So what if Seattle surpasses Vancouver, they are a larger city then Vancouver, and serve a larger population as well. Vancouver punches well above it weight as far as airports go. YVR is very well run and runs numerous airports across the world due to it's expertise. Just because you can't get the flight you want to Paris doesn't mean we're getting shafted by Ottawa. Heck ask Air Transit why they stopped flying to Paris, it wasn't Ottawa that stopped them, there wasn't a large enough market to justify it. If demand is there airlines will provide supply.

trofirhen · #**1904** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 2:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlousa

So what if Seattle surpasses Vancouver, they are a larger city then Vancouver, and serve a larger population as well. Vancouver punches well above it weight as far as airports go. YVR is very well run and runs numerous airports across the world due to it's expertise. Just because you can't get the flight you want to Paris doesn't mean we're getting shafted by Ottawa. Heck ask Air Transit why they stopped flying to Paris, it wasn't Ottawa that stopped them, there wasn't a large enough market to justify it. If demand is there airlines will provide supply.

Good points. Perhaps it's the proximity to Seattle, and the feeling of being in its shadow, that I'm reacting to. Nevertheless, on the wish-list for overseas destinations, Paris came out well on top, and Air France had been trying for access to Vancouver for ten years before the repeated refusals sent them to Seattle. I appreciate and respect your opinion, but I don't think it's as black-and-white as that.

MalcolmTucker · #**1905** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 2:48 PM**

How is an airline cutting a route the fault of Ottawa?

trofirhen · #**1906** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 3:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

How is an airline cutting a route the fault of Ottawa?

It isn't. Unless the airline has requested that route repeatedly, and Ottawa has turned them down repeatedly, as was the case of Air France, which finally gave up and went to Seattle, while Vancouver was their first - and stated - choice.

whatnext · #**1907** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 3:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlousa

So what if Seattle surpasses Vancouver, they are a larger city then Vancouver, and serve a larger population as well. Vancouver punches well above it weight as far as airports go. YVR is very well run and runs numerous airports across the world due to it's expertise. Just because you can't get the flight you want to Paris doesn't mean we're getting shafted by Ottawa. Heck ask Air Transit why they stopped flying to Paris, it wasn't Ottawa that stopped them, there wasn't a large enough market to justify it. If demand is there airlines will provide supply.

Seattle: Microsoft, Starbucks, Nordstrom, Boeing..
Vancouver: ...Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?...Anyone?

Its strange Seattle doesn't have MORE international flights and that Vancouver has so many.

MalcolmTucker · #**1908** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 3:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by trofirhen

It isn't. Unless the airline has requested that route repeatedly, and Ottawa has turned them down repeatedly, as was the case of Air France, which finally gave up and went to Seattle, while Vancouver was their first - and stated - choice.

I was thinking of your complaint about Osaka, not Paris. And can you pull an article or press release on Air France's attempts?

twoNeurons · #**1909** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 3:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

How is an airline cutting a route the fault of Ottawa?

It's not just an airline... it the national carrier. Some routes are routed to Toronto for political reasons. Routing the flight to Toronto will gain more support from the federal government and unless the Canadian government takes a position in the matter ( and officially makes Vancouver a hub for Asia ) there's no reason for Air Canada not to route through Toronto... it's more bang for buck.

As for the Seattle news:

Quote:

From a Port of Seattle email today:

Airline Announces Non-Stops to Beijing and Osaka, Additional Amsterdam Flights
(Seattle) October 20, 2009 - The Port of Seattle and the Governor's office welcomed today's announcement from Delta Air Lines that they are positioning Seattle-Tacoma International Airport as a major gateway to Asia with the addition of nonstop routes to Beijing, China and Osaka, Japan in summer 2010. Delta also announced additional nonstop flights to Amsterdam. Delta Air Lines last year merged with Northwest Airlines, becoming the world's largest airline.

"This is excellent news for our state," said Washington State Governor Christine Gregoire. "China and Japan are two of our top export markets. These new direct flights will help expand trade with Asia, bringing more jobs and economic development to Washington. The new flight to Japan will also directly connect us with Hyogo Prefecture, Washington's sister state in Japan."

""We need good economic news right now - and the new jobs and opportunities created by Delta choosing Seattle as a major gateway to Asia is good news for the region,"said Bill Bryant, Port of Seattle Commission President.

Delta's Asian expansion is powered by its partnership with Alaska Air Group. The new nonstop flights to Beijing and Osaka will be timed to conveniently connect with Delta and Alaska's 267 combined daily departures to 64 destinations from Sea-Tac, and will complement Delta's existing daily service to Tokyo-Narita. Delta and Alaska offer customers reciprocal code share, lounge and frequent flyer benefits to make it easier to connect between the airlines' domestic and international networks at Seattle.

Currently, Delta nonstop service from Sea-Tac to Tokyo-Narita, Amsterdam (in partnership with Air France KLM), Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Memphis, Minneapolis, New York - Kennedy, Paris Charles de Gaulle (in partnership with Air France KLM) and Salt Lake City. Connections through Alaska and Horizon would add 64 nonstop destinations.

Each of Delta's new services will use Boeing 767-300 aircraft. Beijing service will begin five times weekly on June 4, 2010. The Osaka route will begin daily service on June 7, 2010.

Expanded service to Amsterdam will begin June 1, 2010 increasing from seven to 10 weekly flights aboard a combination of Airbus A330-300 and Boeing 767-300 aircraft.

For more information, see Delta Air Lines website

More Details on International Flights
Including Delta's announcement today, eight new international services have been added at Sea-Tac since 2007: Air France (2007 to Paris), Aeromexico (2007 to Mexico City, 2008 to San Jose Del Cabo), Lufthansa (2008 to Frankfurt), Hainan (2008 to Beijing) and Icelandair (2009 to Reykjavik).

A Little History
The first one-stop international flight out of Sea-Tac was in 1949 when Northwest Airlines flew to Tokyo, stopping in Anchorage. That same flight became the first nonstop international flight by going directly to Tokyo in 1963.
Sea-Tac was originally constructed in 1944 for use by the U.S. military. The first year of commercial flights at Sea-Tac came in 1947. In 1966, SAS inaugurated service to Europe.

About Seattle-Tacoma International Airport
Operated by the Port of Seattle, Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA, KSEA) is ranked as the 17th largest U.S. airport, serving more than 32.1 million passengers in 2008. With a regional economic impact of more than $13.2 billion in business revenue, Sea-Tac generates more than 161,000 jobs (89,902 direct jobs) representing more than $2.2 billion in direct earnings and $412.4 million in state and local taxes. Twenty-eight airlines serve 76 non-stop domestic destinations and 22 international cities.

source post at SSC

It's not JUST Canadian traffic that we're competing for. YVR is positioned as an excellent Asian hub for the United States, with transborder status and close proximity to much of the US. American travelers aren't going to choose to fly VIA Toronto when they can choose LA/SF. Vancouver is well positioned to have direct flights to places Toronto can't really serve well, as is illustrated by this map:

What it lacks is the impetus to do so.

I don't know if it's completely relevant that Seattle serves a larger area. They're now starting to serve the Vancouver area as well.

twoNeurons · #**1910** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 3:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

How is an airline cutting a route the fault of Ottawa?

It's not just an airline... it the national carrier. Some routes are routed to Toronto for political reasons. Routing the flight to Toronto will gain more support from the federal government and unless the Canadian government takes a position in the matter ( and officially makes Vancouver a hub for Asia ) there's no reason for Air Canada not to route through Toronto... it's more bang for buck.

As for the Seattle news:

Quote:

From a Port of Seattle email today:

Airline Announces Non-Stops to Beijing and Osaka, Additional Amsterdam Flights
(Seattle) October 20, 2009 - The Port of Seattle and the Governor's office welcomed today's announcement from Delta Air Lines that they are positioning Seattle-Tacoma International Airport as a major gateway to Asia with the addition of nonstop routes to Beijing, China and Osaka, Japan in summer 2010. Delta also announced additional nonstop flights to Amsterdam. Delta Air Lines last year merged with Northwest Airlines, becoming the world's largest airline.

"This is excellent news for our state," said Washington State Governor Christine Gregoire. "China and Japan are two of our top export markets. These new direct flights will help expand trade with Asia, bringing more jobs and economic development to Washington. The new flight to Japan will also directly connect us with Hyogo Prefecture, Washington's sister state in Japan."

""We need good economic news right now - and the new jobs and opportunities created by Delta choosing Seattle as a major gateway to Asia is good news for the region,"said Bill Bryant, Port of Seattle Commission President.

Delta's Asian expansion is powered by its partnership with Alaska Air Group. The new nonstop flights to Beijing and Osaka will be timed to conveniently connect with Delta and Alaska's 267 combined daily departures to 64 destinations from Sea-Tac, and will complement Delta's existing daily service to Tokyo-Narita. Delta and Alaska offer customers reciprocal code share, lounge and frequent flyer benefits to make it easier to connect between the airlines' domestic and international networks at Seattle.

Currently, Delta nonstop service from Sea-Tac to Tokyo-Narita, Amsterdam (in partnership with Air France KLM), Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Memphis, Minneapolis, New York - Kennedy, Paris Charles de Gaulle (in partnership with Air France KLM) and Salt Lake City. Connections through Alaska and Horizon would add 64 nonstop destinations.

Each of Delta's new services will use Boeing 767-300 aircraft. Beijing service will begin five times weekly on June 4, 2010. The Osaka route will begin daily service on June 7, 2010.

Expanded service to Amsterdam will begin June 1, 2010 increasing from seven to 10 weekly flights aboard a combination of Airbus A330-300 and Boeing 767-300 aircraft.

For more information, see Delta Air Lines website

More Details on International Flights
Including Delta's announcement today, eight new international services have been added at Sea-Tac since 2007: Air France (2007 to Paris), Aeromexico (2007 to Mexico City, 2008 to San Jose Del Cabo), Lufthansa (2008 to Frankfurt), Hainan (2008 to Beijing) and Icelandair (2009 to Reykjavik).

A Little History
The first one-stop international flight out of Sea-Tac was in 1949 when Northwest Airlines flew to Tokyo, stopping in Anchorage. That same flight became the first nonstop international flight by going directly to Tokyo in 1963.
Sea-Tac was originally constructed in 1944 for use by the U.S. military. The first year of commercial flights at Sea-Tac came in 1947. In 1966, SAS inaugurated service to Europe.

About Seattle-Tacoma International Airport
Operated by the Port of Seattle, Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA, KSEA) is ranked as the 17th largest U.S. airport, serving more than 32.1 million passengers in 2008. With a regional economic impact of more than $13.2 billion in business revenue, Sea-Tac generates more than 161,000 jobs (89,902 direct jobs) representing more than $2.2 billion in direct earnings and $412.4 million in state and local taxes. Twenty-eight airlines serve 76 non-stop domestic destinations and 22 international cities.

source post at SSC

It's not JUST Canadian traffic that we're competing for. YVR is positioned as an excellent Asian hub for the United States, with transborder status and close proximity to much of the US. American travelers aren't going to choose to fly VIA Toronto when they can choose LAX, SFO or SEA. Vancouver is well positioned to have direct flights to places Toronto can't really serve well, as is illustrated by this map:

What it lacks is the impetus to do so.

I don't know if it's completely relevant that Seattle serves a larger area. They're now starting to serve the Vancouver area as well.

MalcolmTucker · #**1911** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 4:17 PM**

^ Hubs are efficient to a point from an economic perspective, and I think people like to ignore that and lay all the blame on the political side. Politicians have no control besides bilateral on Air Canada (and a couple weird provisions in the Air Canada Act like having three mandatory maintenance bases)

The funny thing is, you (twoNeurons) and trofirhen are arguing two sides of the same coin. You want Canada to hub air traffic through Vancouver to get to asia. Trofirhen does not want a policy he sees as requiring hubbing through Montreal or Toronto to get to France (which is only a restriction on French Airlines, not Canadian ones)

twoNeurons · #**1912** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 6:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

^ Hubs are efficient to a point from an economic perspective, and I think people like to ignore that and lay all the blame on the political side. Politicians have no control besides bilateral on Air Canada (and a couple weird provisions in the Air Canada Act like having three mandatory maintenance bases)

The funny thing is, you (twoNeurons) and trofirhen are arguing two sides of the same coin. You want Canada to hub air traffic through Vancouver to get to asia. Trofirhen does not want a policy he sees as requiring hubbing through Montreal or Toronto to get to France (which is only a restriction on French Airlines, not Canadian ones)

Well, I would like more options to Asia and think we would be in a good position to be a HUB for the US. I don't think Air Canada

Air Canada's Asian Network:

Air Canada's European Network:

There's quite the disparity when it comes to Europe. I don't expect us to compete with Toronto when it comes to Europe, but why not try to be more competitive with YVR as an Asian hub? There seems to be an opportunity that is starting to be exploited by SeaTac.

Vancouver is forced to go through Toronto ( or a select few European cities ) which gives Toronto the ability to provide more destinations. What does this mean? Tourists come to Toronto from Europe. They won't transfer through Vancouver, as it's out of the way and further to travel. Vancouver seems like it would be an efficient place to establish an Asian hub, given travel times.

Hourglass · #**1913** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 7:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext

Seattle: Microsoft, Starbucks, Nordstrom, Boeing..
Vancouver: ...Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?...Anyone?

Its strange Seattle doesn't have MORE international flights and that Vancouver has so many.

It's true that Seattle is under-served relative to city population and this may be the beginning of a correction. But there is more to this than city size and corporate muscle. Catchment area and demographics also account for the difference.

Vancouver has a larger Asian population than Seattle. Generally speaking, it also has a higher profile in most Asian countries than Seattle.

Vancouver is the Asian gateway for all of Canada -- particularly Western Canada. US travelers have a variety of choices.

The fact is, Seattle could not support a non-stop HK route as recently as the 1990s. It'll be interesting to see how Delta's new China routes do.

MalcolmTucker · #**1914** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 7:25 PM**

Well, hubbing only makes sense if you can't fill your planes, or if you can switch to a more efficient (bigger) planes by combining markets.

The route through Vancouver route adds about 9% length plus the transfer.

mr.x · #**1915** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 8:06 PM**

I've posted a new topic on this YVR stranglehold issue in the Canada forum, fire away:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=174826

Rusty Gull · #**1916** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 11:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

How is an airline cutting a route the fault of Ottawa?

How about higher taxes and high landing fees that a direct result of Ottawa's gouging?

Yume-sama · #**1917** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 11:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

How about higher taxes and high landing fees that a direct result of Ottawa's gouging?

Isn't Toronto the one with the highest landing fees, created by the government making sure it the busiest airport?

MalcolmTucker · #**1918** Posted **Oct 21, 2009, 11:38 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Isn't Toronto the one with the highest landing fees, created by the government making sure it the busiest airport?

Yeah. If airport rents were eliminated, there would be more hubbing through YYZ, not less. But yeah, there might be some winbacks from people currently traveling through border airports as well.

whatnext · #**1919** Posted **Oct 22, 2009, 12:22 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

How about higher taxes and high landing fees that a direct result of Ottawa's gouging?

How about having YVR drop their "Airport Improvement Fee". One would think if YVR was so concerned about attracting new traffic, they'd drop it.

mr.x · #**1920** Posted **Oct 22, 2009, 12:25 AM**

^ it's only for passengers, and it's a miniscule fee compared to even the cheapest air tickets. Considering it's what the airport uses to pay for its construction projects, I don't understand the logic behind canceling it.