YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Based on what, may I ask? Your opinion?

Based on the size of the markets, and a comparison with seats available to other int'l destinations out of YVR.

Originally Posted by Hourglass

..Irrelevant. Singapore Airlines' hiring policies have nothing to do with this discussion. We are talking about service standards, and when it comes to Asia, AC isn't competing directly against American carriers. Check out www.airlinequality.com for passenger reviews about Air Canada if you like. A significant proportion of the reviews are appalling.

Hardly irrelevant. And neither is the fact that North American culture is different from some places in Asia, where women are expected to display more of a subservient attitude. And bitching about Air Canada is a national pastime, usually based more on anecdotes than anything else.

Originally Posted by Hourglass

..Where the USA comparison IS relevant is when it comes to air transport policy. That is where YVR currently remains at a disadvantage. And why Air France ended up serving SEA instead of YVR.

We'll see how long Air Chance lasts in Seattle. My bet is on "not long".

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by whatnext

We'll see how long Air Chance lasts in Seattle. My bet is on "not long".

Really? Apparently they're flying full just about every day, and the route is considered very successful by Air France itself.

[Millennium2002]

Sad.

We need some new markets. =O Maybe not total wipe-out of regulations but at least more foreign carriers land here.

I never really understand why the government wants to save Air Canada when people complain about its product. WestJet does somewhat better and it's a private enterprise. =S

We need a company that can change the old face of aviation here, something that all consumers want. The only holdup is the government and Air Canada, who do not want to change.

In the end, this makes change in the future much harder. If we think about it there will probably be even better products by then and Air Canada will be a dinosaur... that will fall extinct faster if we move ahead then.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Based on the size of the markets, and a comparison with seats available to other int'l destinations out of YVR.

When HKG has 21x/week and TPE has 12x/week? Come now. Even taking into account the resident immigrant populations, Korea is a much larger market than Taiwan. And who are you to dictate what is enough? Let the market decide with lower prices and more choice.

Originally Posted by whatnext

Hardly irrelevant. And neither is the fact that North American culture is different from some places in Asia, where women are expected to display more of a subservient attitude. And bitching about Air Canada is a national pastime, usually based more on anecdotes than anything else.

I'm sorry -- I thought we were talking about service quality -- which for me isn't about cute flight attendants prancing around in kebayas, but things such as seat comfort, in-flight entertainment, food, lounge access etc etc. Forget about 'subservient' flight attendants. AC doesn't hold a candle to SQ on any of those other measures either. BTW, this comes from direct experience. I fly 120,000 miles a year, and based on my own personal experience, I try to fly with AC as little as possible.

Originally Posted by whatnext

We'll see how long Air Chance lasts in Seattle. My bet is on "not long".

Again, completely irrelevant. Wouldn't it be better if they could have flown to YVR instead? Again, Canada's bilateral treaties have unfairly favored Toronto (and Montreal) at the expense of Vancouver. Even with the government's Blue Sky policy, Vancouver is still at a disadvantage compared with other North American west coast gateways.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

When HKG has 21x/week and TPE has 12x/week? Come now. Even taking into account the resident immigrant populations, Korea is a much larger market than Taiwan. And who are you to dictate what is enough? Let the market decide with lower prices and more choice.

Let the market decide? So we can end up with the sorry free for all that is the US aviation market? Where most carriers lose buckets and are forever being rescued by Chapter 11 on the backs of shareholders and the employees? There will come a point where you as a Canadian will have to realize that there will always be someone who can do it cheaper, but are you willing to sell out our sovereignty to save a few pennies?

Originally Posted by Hourglass

I'm sorry -- I thought we were talking about service quality -- which for me isn't about cute flight attendants prancing around in kebayas, but things such as seat comfort, in-flight entertainment, food, lounge access etc etc. Forget about 'subservient' flight attendants. AC doesn't hold a candle to SQ on any of those other measures either. BTW, this comes from direct experience. I fly 120,000 miles a year, and based on my own personal experience, I try to fly with AC as little as possible.

No need to try and impress us with your miles. I fly a lot too, most of with Air Canada and I have had no complaints about their service.

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Again, completely irrelevant. Wouldn't it be better if they could have flown to YVR instead? Again, Canada's bilateral treaties have unfairly favored Toronto (and Montreal) at the expense of Vancouver. Even with the government's Blue Sky policy, Vancouver is still at a disadvantage compared with other North American west coast gateways.

Its not completely irrelevant. The point is the market is not there. If it was Transat would serve it. I'm sure the folks at YVR would have you believe otherwise. It always amazes me how they're willing to beat up on their largest customer: Air Canada.

Another point conveniently ignored: AF owns KLM, who are free to increase service to YVR from AMS. Surely if SQ should be allowed to do SIA-ICN-YVR, it would be no hardship for our French friends to fly CDG-AMS-YVR?

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Let the market decide? So we can end up with the sorry free for all that is the US aviation market? Where most carriers lose buckets and are forever being rescued by Chapter 11 on the backs of shareholders and the employees? There will come a point where you as a Canadian will have to realize that there will always be someone who can do it cheaper, but are you willing to sell out our sovereignty to save a few pennies?

Jeepers, I'm selling out Canada's sovereignty by advocating letting Singapore Airlines fly daily to Vancouver via Seoul and allowing more open skies???

There are airlines that were doing just fine in the US prior to the recession. Southwest comes to mind. Perhaps it isn't the regulatory situation in the US that is the problem, but rather too much debt, poor management and other factors?

Originally Posted by whatnext

No need to try and impress us with your miles. I fly a lot too, most of with Air Canada and I have had no complaints about their service.

Not to impress, sir. Just laying out creds. As a frequent flyer, I know what I like and what I don't like. The vast majority of my experiences on Air Canada have been mediocre and on occasion very poor indeed. From your posts, I was wondering whether you were an AC employee.

Originally Posted by whatnext

Its not completely irrelevant. The point is the market is not there. If it was Transat would serve it. I'm sure the folks at YVR would have you believe otherwise. It always amazes me how they're willing to beat up on their largest customer: Air Canada.

Yep, good ol Transat. You're right -- maybe there isn't a market there. But again, shouldn't the market decide that rather than the regulators? Please expalin why Air France should only be allowed to fly to Toronto and Montreal but be barred from flying to Vancouver?

Originally Posted by whatnext

Another point conveniently ignored: AF owns KLM, who are free to increase service to YVR from AMS. Surely if SQ should be allowed to do SIA-ICN-YVR, it would be no hardship for our French friends to fly CDG-AMS-YVR?

Be serious. Singapore and Vancouver nonstop is 12,831km -- a stretch for a 747-400 while Vancouver - Amsterdam is only 7,726km (which incidentally brings up something you conveniently ignore -- one reason SQ was doing a secondary stop was the sheer distance. In the winter, even CX sometimes has to make a technical stop in Taipei flying west). In any case, at this point, people wanting to fly to Vancouver from Paris have to fly via AMS, YYZ, YUL or another point anyway.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Jeepers, I'm selling out Canada's sovereignty by advocating letting Singapore Airlines fly daily to Vancouver via Seoul and allowing more open skies???

There are airlines that were doing just fine in the US prior to the recession. Southwest comes to mind. Perhaps it isn't the regulatory situation in the US that is the problem, but rather too much debt, poor management and other factors?

Southwest and Jetblue are the exceptions. Even those others making a profit, the return is pretty poor.

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Not to impress, sir. Just laying out creds. As a frequent flyer, I know what I like and what I don't like. The vast majority of my experiences on Air Canada have been mediocre and on occasion very poor indeed. From your posts, I was wondering whether you were an AC employee.

No I don't work for Air Canada, just trying to point out there are experiences out there quite different from yours.

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Be serious. Singapore and Vancouver nonstop is 12,831km -- a stretch for a 747-400 while Vancouver - Amsterdam is only 7,726km (which incidentally brings up something you conveniently ignore -- one reason SQ was doing a secondary stop was the sheer distance. In the winter, even CX sometimes has to make a technical stop in Taipei flying west). In any case, at this point, people wanting to fly to Vancouver from Paris have to fly via AMS, YYZ, YUL or another point anyway.

Air Canada makes YVR-SYD work with a distance of 12,484 km. Why can't SQ, without poaching off traffic from a third market?

The issue isn't distance, its the connection. One connection in AMS is hardly a severe impediment to travel, especially when its between two carriers with the same ownership.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

No I don't work for Air Canada, just trying to point out there are experiences out there quite different from yours.

There you go: they are inconsistent, which is certainly not a good thing.

[big T]

^I'm surprised, too. I've flown upwards of 200k miles on AC metal over the past 3 years, and I've been consistently happy with the product. They are certainly leaps and bouns ahead of other NA airlines.
I had the pleasure of flying Cathay to HK last year, and honestly their Business product wasn't so different from AC's, either.

[SpongeG]

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[SpongeG]

not good news for YVR but good for passengers...

Many Canadians flying out of Bellingham International Airport

American airlines advertise in the Lower Mainland

BELLINGHAM (NEWS1130) - The Port of Bellingham has reviewed its numbers and found a record number of passengers used the Bellingham International Airport. However, half of those passengers are Canadian.

About 16,000 Canadians took the drive down to Bellingham rather than using YVR in August.

Dan Zenk with the Port of Bellingham says airlines that use the airport, like Allegiant and Alaska, do advertise for the Bellingham based flights in the Lower Mainland.

He says customers may be looking for a way to cut costs and still take a trip. "Allegiant's model is a low-cost airline where there are value added amenities if one chooses to purchase those. For example, there's no meals served on the flight."

Zenk thinks a fairly strong Canadian dollar may have also attracted more customers from north of the border.

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/more.jsp?content=20091003_110720_7588

[mezzanine]

My experience on AC is inconsistent. Certainly, service is better than US carriers.

That being said, I got caught up in the big snowfall in Xmas 2008 (YVR-LAS). On the same day the snow hit us, AC was the first to shut down - no advance warning the morning we left - we were already at the airport. WestJet was able to clear passengers already at YVR on the day the snow came. We actually flew out of YVR on US airways, a star alliance partner of AC, that same day, after we called AC's help desk - the best they promised us was to fly us to LAS via YEG 2 days later.

In spite of AC's efforts, things like that will stick in ppl's minds for a long time....

[mezzanine]

There will come a point where you as a Canadian will have to realize that there will always be someone who can do it cheaper, but are you willing to sell out our sovereignty to save a few pennies?
....

Many Canadians flying out of Bellingham International Airport

American airlines advertise in the Lower Mainland

BELLINGHAM (NEWS1130) - The Port of Bellingham has reviewed its numbers and found a record number of passengers used the Bellingham International Airport. However, half of those passengers are Canadian.

Asked, and answered...

[SpongeG]

but could some of that be because the flight crew was vancouver based and couldn't get to the airport? maybe the other airlines had their crews there?

I couldn't leave my building for a few days at christmas

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Asked, and answered...

we flew to San fran for $220 return in june - we had upgrades too we could have gotten cheaper tix - but the same trip from Vancouver was about $450 we looked - we saved a couple hundred

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

but could some of that be because the flight crew was vancouver based and couldn't get to the airport? maybe the other airlines had their crews there?

I couldn't leave my building for a few days at christmas

We were ok'd to go to the gate, and we could see our plane on the tarmac. couldn't see if the crew were there, but at that point most, if not all AC flights on the board were cancelled.

We got to YVR that day, it was a little difficult, yes, but we made it, plus many, many other passengers...... it was a mid-afternoon flight, so we were able to make it with time to spare.

And as I said, we saw the WJ flight to LAS board and take off, with only a 30 min delay. The US airways flight flew out ~ 10 min late.

If all flights were majorly delayed, or if all of YVR was shutdown, then I wouldn't be so sore about it. I made it to my destination in spite of AC's performance. and that's what ppl will have burned in their memories.

[SpongeG]

oh yah for sure

just if they are unionized they would phone in for 1 inch of snow

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

but could some of that be because the flight crew was vancouver based and couldn't get to the airport? maybe the other airlines had their crews there?

I couldn't leave my building for a few days at christmas

I flew out on the 25 Dec. last year. Think I got the last flight out ( YVR - NAR ) before they shut it down. Of course, I never heard about that until I got back. I heard the problem was with the deicing of the planes.

To whomever complained about airlines who kept young women as flight attendants, you have to understand that the cultural values of another country are different than this one. Many Asian cultures put great emphasis on image. There's a business case for keeping a young, attractive, high energy, work force as the public face of the company. The job of cabin attendant is known to be a "young person's job" and many move on to other (higher paying, stable) jobs.

In some cases, they move on to the job of homemaker if they chose to have kids, which for some strange reason people think is denigrating.

It's pretty sad, if you ask me... when people put their "secular career" over their filial one. I certainly wouldn't want my kids raised by a daycare.

Anyway, the point isn't the erosion of family values, it's that just because a culture is different, doesn't mean you have to attack it. Things are usually more complex than they seem. In many cases, it's not a job many men or older women would actually want.

Whatnext, I assume you or a family member work (or worked) for Air Canada or Aeroplan ( now a separate company ).

As for me, I prefer Air Canada's service over the American airlines I have traveled on.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by big T

^I'm surprised, too. I've flown upwards of 200k miles on AC metal over the past 3 years, and I've been consistently happy with the product. They are certainly leaps and bouns ahead of other NA airlines.
I had the pleasure of flying Cathay to HK last year, and honestly their Business product wasn't so different from AC's, either.

Once you are in business class, service level gets much better: it's economy you'll notice the difference.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I flew out on the 25 Dec. last year. Think I got the last flight out ( YVR - NAR ) before they shut it down. Of course, I never heard about that until I got back. I heard the problem was with the deicing of the planes.

To whomever complained about airlines who kept young women as flight attendants, you have to understand that the cultural values of another country are different than this one. Many Asian cultures put great emphasis on image. There's a business case for keeping a young, attractive, high energy, work force as the public face of the company. The job of cabin attendant is known to be a "young person's job" and many move on to other (higher paying, stable) jobs.

In some cases, they move on to the job of homemaker if they chose to have kids, which for some strange reason people think is denigrating.

It's pretty sad, if you ask me... when people put their "secular career" over their filial one. I certainly wouldn't want my kids raised by a daycare.

Anyway, the point isn't the erosion of family values, it's that just because a culture is different, doesn't mean you have to attack it..

(bold mine)

And yet you did just that, for all those families who use daycares.

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Whatnext, I assume you or a family member work (or worked) for Air Canada or Aeroplan ( now a separate company ).

Sorry, but no as I have already answered. I firmly support the home team, and just as I think the federal Tories should have fought tooth and nail to keep Nortel Canadian and they should continue to provide judicious support for Bombardier. Without such actions we will just be hewers of wood and drawers of water. Patriotism shouldn't be that hard to understand.