West LRT | 7 Stations | 8.0 KM | In Service

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by brentwood

Although grade separation for 45th Street can only be a positive IMO, I do not get why there is the focus on minor improvements further out along the line and yet the 11th Street at grade crossing received virtually no discussion. The city seems to have blown it off as unacheivable due to space limitations but it also received little public input likely due to no community groups feeling they have a stake in the design at this intersection. IMO all this fluff further out on the line is great but why oh why could we not properly address the line's entrance into downtown. This is the third poorly executed line coming into downtown (if you are counting). To fix the problem in the future will be a headache.

Well, if the W-NE line ever needs the extra capacity that going underground can bring then sure, fix it then. Frequency to meet projected need shouldn't really interfere that much - and probably will interfere less with the road than the current traffic intersection. If your worried about train access, easy solution is to not extend the in street limits (section where lights have control) over 11th, and just have train override with bells to cross the road.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by fusili

BRT should be mostly a precursor to LRT in order to build ridership and to change travel behavior in advance of an LRT system, which is what we are doing. Of course, I don't really think it is a BRT because there is no ROW separation.

When I first saw Calgary's so-called BRT my first reaction was: "That's not BRT. That's what we call a mainline bus route." It seems that other cities' criteria for BRT is pretty minimal - a few articulated buses, some slightly more colourful shelters and a branding exercise. In a city like Ottawa where we put artics onto local feeder routes at times (we're nuts), it takes a bit more than tarting up a route and sending artics down it to call it BRT. Even transit priority (e.g. queue jump) measures aren't enough in and of themselves. Whatever the faults of BRT around here, at least the term isn't thrown around willy-nilly. Minimum criteria seems to be relatively unimpeded operation (except downtown) - sometimes we can get away using an expressway with no special measures, elsewhere we use bus lanes, but the general emphasis is on keeping the bus moving as much as possible so it can join (or make up time lost in) the downtown bus jam.

Another role for BRT is for orbital/circumferential travel where LRT isn't likely to be viable. This can be quite useful because if it makes use of onstreet bus lanes and the like it can be used to speed up feeder service to an LRT or metro.

The West LRT will be interesting to see what the change in ridership is like in the corridor from the time the proposal got the green light a couple years back until it is in operation. Questions like "will LRT increase ridership?" and "does ridership increase in advance of LRT with people 'putting up with' buses for a few years if they know LRT is sure in coming?" and "does construction disruption encourage or discourage people to take transit?" are all ones that could possibly be answered by the West LRT project.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Mike Wilhelm

This bureaucratic "problem/solution" approach is what got us the Marborough mess in the first place.

Calgary has made LRT mistakes elsewhere. As a city of 1.1 million with an established LRT system, citizens are keenly aware of prior decisions to cut corners. They are now deeply mistrustful of this line of thinking.

Communities want vision, and can see the city's "problem/solution" and "stick it to the man" approaches have panned out before.

So then - how does a "budget" plan support the larger objective of encouraging density with an attractive LRT transit subsidy on the west side?

Marborough wasn't a problem until the late 90's when the additional strip mall development went in on the west side of 36th. I highly doubt the area around 45th St and 17th Ave is going to see much upzoning.

[Mike Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Doug

Marborough wasn't a problem until the late 90's when the additional strip mall development went in on the west side of 36th. I highly doubt the area around 45th St and 17th Ave is going to see much upzoning.

Maybe, maybe not.

What I'm hearing from you here is the NE ended up with strip malls, and subsequent changes to transit to support them. Therefore, I'm thinking the NE may have been intiated on a transit first, development second agenda.

It's like my argument for grafitti (sorry folks) - if there is no purpose for a structure other that to hold something up, somebody will find a purpose. Undesignated land adjacent to transit works that way too.

So I'll ask you to support your original premise - how does a "budget" plan support the larger objective of encouraging density (and workable neighbourhoods unblighted with strip malls) with an attractive LRT transit subsidy on the west side?

[Riise]

Originally Posted by fusili

BRT should be mostly a precursor to LRT in order to build ridership and to change travel behavior in advance of an LRT system, which is what we are doing.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Fusili. After much discussion with a former instructor of mine I have started to question whether or not BRT is or can be a stand-alone technology. I think the simple answer to this question is another question. Considering that Light Rapid Transit systems can also reach their maximum line capacities, are LRTs a precursor to Metros? I think BRTs have a lot of potential to be used outside of situations where they are just temporary measures.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Riise

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Fusili. After much discussion with a former instructor of mine I have started to question whether or not BRT is or can be a stand-alone technology. I think the simple answer to this question is another question. Considering that Light Rapid Transit systems can also reach their maximum line capacities, are LRTs a precursor to Metros? I think BRTs have a lot of potential to be used outside of situations where they are just temporary measures.

Ok, yeah, I should have been more specific. BRT is a good precursor to LRT and I guess the same could be said about metros. But I would agree that BRTs can serve functions that LRTs wouldn't be able to address. Crosstown routes are a good example. If distance is far and ridership isn't extremely high, the lower capital cost of BRTs make sense. The right tool for the job right?

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Mike Wilhelm

Maybe, maybe not.

What I'm hearing from you here is the NE ended up with strip malls, and subsequent changes to transit to support them. Therefore, I'm thinking the NE may have been intiated on a transit first, development second agenda.

It's like my argument for grafitti (sorry folks) - if there is no purpose for a structure other that to hold something up, somebody will find a purpose. Undesignated land adjacent to transit works that way too.

So I'll ask you to support your original premise - how does a "budget" plan support the larger objective of encouraging density (and workable neighbourhoods unblighted with strip malls) with an attractive LRT transit subsidy on the west side?

There were always strip malls along 36th, but the one across 36th from Marborough Mall expanded significantly from the mid to late 90's, dramatically increasing the amount of cross traffic. That area was never going to attract anything other than strip malls or warehouses, LRT or no LRT.

Spending money on extra grade separation will do nothing to increase density along the WLRT. The area around 45th is low density commercial (small area) and single family housing. The commercial (ex. AMA) could potentially be redeveloped at higher densities, but not to an extent to meaningfully impact traffic of all types in the area. Too bad the former drive-in movie site in that area was redeveloped in the 70's, mostly as single family housing. The residents clamoring for the trench should have had to accept upzoning in their neighborhood.

The big opportunity is the Westbrook Mall / Manning High school site. Given that the site will likely be bulldozed and started anew, a surface alingment could be placed anywhere and the overall site planned to minimize its intrusiveness. There is no need for an underground station.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by fusili

The right tool for the job right?

Yessums, good sir!

[danofkent]

I certainly welcome the grade separation at 45th St. Although the road itself is not that busy, there is no room for turn lanes on 17th Av. Since 17th is already a pretty busy truck route, and will be more so as the city continues to expand, having a lane blocked by cars waiting to turn would have been a nightmare.

Originally Posted by Doug

The big opportunity is the Westbrook Mall / Manning High school site. Given that the site will likely be bulldozed and started anew, a surface alingment could be placed anywhere and the overall site planned to minimize its intrusiveness. There is no need for an underground station.

As previously mentioned in this thread, grade separation at Bow Trail and 37 St SW makes a surface alignment through Westbrook Mall impractical. Having the LRT run at grade through those junctions really would restrict access to the Westbrook/Manning sites, making dense redevelopment hard to achieve.

[danofkent]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

unless the residents in the area are keen on very high-density skyscraper development there, in which case it makes sense to reconsider.

I don't think it's a case of what residents want, so much as what they are going to get. If it was, the West LRT probably wouldn't be built at all. There is a lot of local opposition, given that it won't benefit most of the residents who are affected by the development. The 6-storey elevated portion of the track in Westgate and proposed pedestrian underpass to Kinkaid Castle are of particular concern to residents living in that area, who are worried about safety, noise and overlooking. Meanwhile, residents on the other side of Westgate will have longer journey times to downtown, as they are currently right by a very frequent bus service along Bow Trail.

The long term proposals outlined to the local community include redeveloping the AMA site and the north side of 17th Ave, mostly with 6-10 storey condos. With the trenching, some of the condos will be able to face onto 17th Av, as they will be built on top of the trench.

The community is being pretty pragmatic, recognising that some degree of redevelopment will happen regardless of local wishes. Intead, the focus has been on getting the details right to make the best of the situation. The trench at 45th St is an important part of that, because of the lack of room for turning lanes and the number of children crossing to the two elementary schools and the junior high school, within a few blocks of the 45 St junction.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

I presume by the elevated portion through Westgate, you're speaking of the part that will parallel Westwood Dr. just before the line goes over Sarcee Trail? Also, where is proposed pedestrian underpass to Kinkaid Castle?

I'm assuming he's referring to the pathway that will loop under the Sarcee/17th Interchange

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[mersar]

Kincaid Castle I believe is the condo townhouses right south of 17th behind that strip mall

[Wentworth]

Originally Posted by mersar

Kincaid Castle I believe is the condo townhouses right south of 17th behind that strip mall

Yep: Gotta Love StreetView!

[danofkent]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

First off, welcome to the discussion danofkent.

I presume by the elevated portion through Westgate, you're speaking of the part that will parallel Westwood Dr. just before the line goes over Sarcee Trail? Also, where is proposed pedestrian underpass to Kinkaid Castle?

Otherwise, good to hear that the area around 45th Street Station will be upzoned.

Thanks for the welcome - I've been lurking for a while, but have finally got around to registering!

The elevated portion is the part you mention, rising over Sarcee Trail, and Kinkaid Castle is the part of Westgate which is on the other side of 17th Avenue at the junction with Sarcee, as others have posted.

I can't find any references to the underpass in the documents online, which all seem to focus on the station, but it has been included in documents used in meetings with the communities around 45th St. The proposal was for an underpass which would pass under the c-train and 17th Av, replacing the current crosswalk at the junction of 17th and Glenside Dr.

[danofkent]

I found reference to a possible underpass in the minutes to the meetings held on Oct 29 and Nov 19: http://www.westlrt.ca/contentdesign/stations/45st.cfm

The minutes to the many subsequent meetings are not online, and I'm not a member of the station committee, so I don't know the outcome of the investigations.

[SubwayRev]

Originally Posted by danofkent

I found reference to a possible underpass in the minutes to the meetings held on Oct 29 and Nov 19: http://www.westlrt.ca/contentdesign/stations/45st.cfm

The minutes to the many subsequent meetings are not online, and I'm not a member of the station committee, so I don't know the outcome of the investigations.

Ahhh....I know what you mean now...as that crosswalk would be useless once the train was put in; however, I don't like the idea of a pedestrian underpass. They usually turn into urine-scented, dark, un-used sidewalks.

[lubicon]

Demo of some of the lodge buildings has started. The lodge on the north side of Bow Trail and east of 26 Street.