Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[Zassk]

Here are some possibilities... there are other ways this could be done of course... which one do you prefer? I prefer option 4, but I'm not a daily user of these lines.


Option 1 - Millennium line goes to Douglas. Short shuttle between Columbia and Lougheed. Many transfers required if you want to go to/from New West.



Option 2 - Make Expo Line branch at Columbia. Run every 3rd Expo train up to Lougheed. Millennium Line trains only go to Douglas.



Option 3 - The same as Option 2, but named more closely to the existing system. The trains that will branch off of Expo to Lougheed are called Millennium Line. Trains that go east/west to Douglas are called Evergreen Line.



Option 4 - Make Millennium Line branch at Lougheed. Run every 3rd Millennium train down to Columbia.



Option 5 - same effect as Option 4, but we give the two routes different line names.



Option 6 - both Expo and Millennium send every 3rd or 4th train between Columbia and Lougheed, before turning back again.



Option 7 - the existing system, added on. Millennium Line seems to go everywhere, and is really just a duplicate label at every station except for Sapperton and Braid.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Mac Write

I think they should keep the current service once Evergreen opens and add of course VCC - Douglas. So it would be.

• Waterfront > King Goerge
• Water Front > VCC-Clark
• VCC-Clark > Douglas
• VCC-Clark > Waterfront via Columbia

If demand warrents it, add a King George > Douglas. with double stops at Columbia (Westbound and then Eastbound both directions).

Your routes are great and are what I'm thinking they should do.

A train from King George to Douglas can be done ie by switching. The problem is switching at columbia would cause a major back up when other trains came in as well. Columbia just could not handle the load. It might easier to switch at Lougheed as the 3rd track is there, but even then it would not be perfect.

The only solution I can see for a train to go from Scott rd to Sapperton without causing a delay in the switching a columbia would be the installation of a 3rd track and it would be best if that 3rd track was in the center of two remaining tracks. So a train could switch into the middle and then wait for a clearance to switch onto the track it is looking for. That way the train at no time is blocking both tracks but only one track. Of course building a middle track is all but impossible. Or it is possible but not with out a disruption to service of some kind or the buying of property.

[red-paladin]

I would take the thing every day, and I think seven would be ideal. However most of the members here said that would be impossible to do, due to the timing, so I think 3 or 5 would be good.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Dave2

That would be a shame, that Safeway is one of the last unaltered Marina style Safeways we have left... http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&safe=off&sa=1&q=marina+style+safeway&aq=f&oq=&start=0

Haha, if they don't hurry it will probably be designated a heritage building, and with good reason, they are pretty cool buildings. It's amazing how few pillars there are in them.

[red-paladin]

What's amazing about that Safeway, is that it's so old that it's come back in style. Some of the Millennium line skytrain stations have ceilings like that!

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by Dave2

That would be a shame, that Safeway is one of the last unaltered Marina style Safeways we have left... http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&safe=off&sa=1&q=marina+style+safeway&aq=f&oq=&start=0

Eh, nostalgia, sure.. but the store is small and outdated. It doesn't serve the community well. With the new Price-Smart/Save On Foods open down the street beside Lougheed Mall, not to mention the Wal-Mart, I doubt that very many people go through there anymore.

Originally Posted by red-paladin

What's amazing about that Safeway, is that it's so old that it's come back in style. Some of the Millennium line skytrain stations have ceilings like that!

[lightrail]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Your routes are great and are what I'm thinking they should do.

A train from King George to Douglas can be done ie by switching. The problem is switching at columbia would cause a major back up when other trains came in as well. Columbia just could not handle the load. It might easier to switch at Lougheed as the 3rd track is there, but even then it would not be perfect.

The only solution I can see for a train to go from Scott rd to Sapperton without causing a delay in the switching a columbia would be the installation of a 3rd track and it would be best if that 3rd track was in the center of two remaining tracks. So a train could switch into the middle and then wait for a clearance to switch onto the track it is looking for. That way the train at no time is blocking both tracks but only one track. Of course building a middle track is all but impossible. Or it is possible but not with out a disruption to service of some kind or the buying of property.

Ideally you would want to reduce the need for switching. Switches are where problems can happen causing the system to fail. For example, if every second train from Columbia went to Lougheed and the trains are running every 2 minutes, then the switch in one direction has to move every two minutes, or 30 times an hour. Same for the other direction, so there is 60 switch movements an hour. Avoiding this by segregating lines would save problems later.

An extreme example is London Underground Northern Line - there is a deep level junction south of Camden Town that lets trains from either the city or west end branch access either Edgeware or High Barnet branches without fouling the other routes. It's done with 8 sets of points and lots of tunnels. It results in 160 switch movements an hour, or one every 20 seconds. It is the major cause of failure on the line because when a switch fails, the cascade effects all branches. London Underground is looking at spliting the Northern Line in two to avoid the need for this complicated junction.

[Metro-One]

I still don't know why more people are not considering this intergration. I made a quick map to actually show what I have been talking about.
To me this system makes the most sense of any of them.



Again, sorry for the crudeness, I made it in about 1 minute, haha.

Expo = Waterfront to King George
M = VCC to Columbia
Ev = VCC to Douglas

This way the busiest stretch of the M-Line (Commercial to Lougheed) has double the frequency as the Lougheed to Douglas stretch and the Lougheed to Columbia stretch.

This way none of the existing routes will experience frequency reductions, but M-line VCC to Lougheed and Columbia to King George will have major frequency increases. This system is also the easiest understand for novice or new users and is the one best fit for a future UBC extension.

Also, this way someone going from SFU Production station to the Surrey Campus needs to take only one transfer instead of two.

[Chikinlittle]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I still don't know why more people are not considering this intergration. I made a quick map to actually show what I have been talking about.
To me this system makes the most sense of any of them.

Again, sorry for the crudeness, I made it in about 1 minute, haha.

Expo = Waterfront to King George
M = VCC to Columbia
Ev = VCC to Douglas

This way the busiest stretch of the M-Line (Commercial to Lougheed) has double the frequency as the Lougheed to Douglas stretch and the Lougheed to Columbia stretch.

This way none of the existing routes will experience frequency reductions, but M-line VCC to Lougheed and Columbia to King George will have major frequency increases. This system is also the easiest understand for novice or new users and is the one best fit for a future UBC extension.

Also, this way someone going from SFU Production station to the Surrey Campus needs to take only one transfer instead of two.

I like this scenario, but perhaps it would too drastically affect the capacity Waterfront to Columbia on the Expo line, where extra capacity is already needed? I haven't done any calculations myself, but would this require too many train sets?

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

I like this scenario, but perhaps it would too drastically affect the capacity Waterfront to Columbia on the Expo line, where extra capacity is already needed? I haven't done any calculations myself, but would this require too many train sets?

After Evergreen opens, almost all of the riders heading to Tri-Cities will transfer at Bwy/Commercial rather than continue through Columbia. So I expect Expo will actually see less riders SE of Bwy/Commercial. Millennium will pick up the slack.

The part of Expo that will need more trains is Waterfront to Bwy/Commercial. All the more reason to extend Millennium over to the Canada Line ASAP... give commuters an alternate line to get downtown. Let Canada Line relieve the Expo Line a little.

[Metro-One]

Thats what I was thinking is my scenario above is best suited when considering all the future plans for the system.

Also, it involves no re-branding of stations, something that will also help cause less confusion among users.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I still don't know why more people are not considering this intergration. I made a quick map to actually show what I have been talking about.
To me this system makes the most sense of any of them.

Again, sorry for the crudeness, I made it in about 1 minute, haha.

Expo = Waterfront to King George
M = VCC to Columbia
Ev = VCC to Douglas

This way the busiest stretch of the M-Line (Commercial to Lougheed) has double the frequency as the Lougheed to Douglas stretch and the Lougheed to Columbia stretch.

This way none of the existing routes will experience frequency reductions, but M-line VCC to Lougheed and Columbia to King George will have major frequency increases. This system is also the easiest understand for novice or new users and is the one best fit for a future UBC extension.

Also, this way someone going from SFU Production station to the Surrey Campus needs to take only one transfer instead of two.

Best one yet! I would only add one small addition:

[deasine]

Yeah I totally wished they would brand it as two separate lines: makes it so much easier for people to understand.

[SFUVancouver]

It completely baffles me that they missed an opportunity to have a whole extra line by simply naming and branding the Canada Line as two routes. It is, after all, two routes! So what if each individual line only has three or four stations and they share the rest? The Canada Line (to Richmond) won't have the same terminus forever and the Canada Line (to YVR) will have another station added for the US terminal expansion.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I still don't know why more people are not considering this intergration. I made a quick map to actually show what I have been talking about.
To me this system makes the most sense of any of them.

Again, sorry for the crudeness, I made it in about 1 minute, haha.

Expo = Waterfront to King George
M = VCC to Columbia
Ev = VCC to Douglas

This way the busiest stretch of the M-Line (Commercial to Lougheed) has double the frequency as the Lougheed to Douglas stretch and the Lougheed to Columbia stretch.

This way none of the existing routes will experience frequency reductions, but M-line VCC to Lougheed and Columbia to King George will have major frequency increases. This system is also the easiest understand for novice or new users and is the one best fit for a future UBC extension.

Also, this way someone going from SFU Production station to the Surrey Campus needs to take only one transfer instead of two.

Thing is your Yellow line which ends at Columbia. Why not have it go to Waterfront. It already goes there. I see no reason it could not continue on like that.

Otherwise I support the rest of it.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Thing is your Yellow line which ends at Columbia. Why not have it go to Waterfront. It already goes there. I see no reason it could not continue on like that.

That has already been discussed in this thread. Due to timing difficulties, it isn't feasible to try to run Millennium trains interlined with both Expo and Evergreen. It will have to be interlined with one or the other, not both. Most likely that means stopping the Millennium trains at Columbia.

[SpongeG]

what if you get on at Lougheed and want to get to waterfront?

I know i've chosen that way a few times - it doesn't take much longer and you avoid having to transfer at the dreaded broadway

with this idea people would be forced off at columbia?

[Metro-One]

I always do the transfer at Broadway. It really is not that bad of a transfer, a train seems to arrive every minute on the Expo Line and with the Evergreen and M line sharing the use of the M-line from VCC to Lougheed then trains will also become frequent on the M-Line portion of the Broadway transfer.

[metroXpress]

Originally Posted by deasine

Yeah I totally wished they would brand it as two separate lines: makes it so much easier for people to understand.

exactly...then they can say they built 2 different lines for the price of 1

[Metro-One]

Yeah, it would have been a great marketing tool to the nay sayers as well.