Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[metroXpress]

Just wondering, any plans to add Woodlands station?

[cabotp]

As far as I know right now during non-peak trains leaving waterfront alternate between going to VCC-Clark and King George. Of course during peak the ratio is 2 to King George and 1 to VCC.

I would keep the above as is. But when evergreen is running just have every 2nd train leaving VCC-Clark heading to Coquitlam.

The only downside is the fact that any leaving surrey trying to get to Coquitlam would have to make 2 transfers one at columbia and one a lougheed. Of course in the future if the need was ever to run trains from surrey to Coquitlam. I feel it could easily be on by have a WB train enter Columbia on the North platform but the destination sign would say Coquitlam. Then leave the station and switch over to the other track and then pull back into Columbia on the south track same destination Coquitlam. At which point it heads to Lougheed. Then at lougheed. just before it entered the station it would switch over to the 3rd platform. And then carry on its route to Coquitlam.

[nname]

Originally Posted by cabotp

As far as I know right now during non-peak trains leaving waterfront alternate between going to VCC-Clark and King George. Of course during peak the ratio is 2 to King George and 1 to VCC.

I would keep the above as is. But when evergreen is running just have every 2nd train leaving VCC-Clark heading to Coquitlam.

That would be ideal, but one of the requirement is to run Evergreen Line to Coquitlam every 3 minutes during peak and 5 minutes off-peak.

So.. with your configuration, Millennium Line would be running every 3/5 minutes peak/off-peak and combined VCC/Lougheed segment would see train every 1.5/2.5 minutes. Now, the combined expo line would require train every 1 minutes during peak, and that's simply too much...

I think one of the scenario they proposed is to run 3 of 5 trains to Coquitlam and 2 of 5 trains as Millennium Line. With average headway of 180 seconds in the Coquitlam segment, the combined portion would have headway of 108 seconds and the Millennium Line segment would have average headway of 270 seconds. For the combined Expo line portion, 2 of 3 trains will go to Surrey, meaning a headway of 90 seconds in the Expo portion and 135 seconds for the Surrey segment.

But.. this is more complicated than it looks... Assume the headway on the Expo line is evenly spaced - every 90s apart, so the space between trains in surrey portion would be [90s-180s-90s-180s] and Millennium portion would be [270s-270s].. now insert the Evergreen Line trains, and it would result in the spacing of [90s-90s-90s-135s-135s-90s-90s-90s-135s-135s], and the Coquitlam segment would get a funky spacing of [90s-225s-225s-90s-225s-225s]

Probably the only reasonable spacing for double coordinated scenario is to give the combined Millennium Line the same capacity as the combined Expo Line, but M-Line doesn't need that much capacity (at least before the UBC extension). So this is the reason why they didn't choose it.

[cabotp]

It wasn't so much that every 2nd train leaving VCC Clark had to go to Coquitlam. If they want to set it up as 2 of 3 or 3 of 5 going to Coquitlam great. It is more the fact that I see no reason why we need to have any train short turn at lougheed or Columbia.

Of course in the future if demand were to warrant short turning do it. Just like they short turn at Broadway and Metrotown on occasion.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by nname

That would be ideal, but one of the requirement is to run Evergreen Line to Coquitlam every 3 minutes during peak and 5 minutes off-peak.

So.. with your configuration, Millennium Line would be running every 3/5 minutes peak/off-peak and combined VCC/Lougheed segment would see train every 1.5/2.5 minutes. Now, the combined expo line would require train every 1 minutes during peak, and that's simply too much...

I think one of the scenario they proposed is to run 3 of 5 trains to Coquitlam and 2 of 5 trains as Millennium Line. With average headway of 180 seconds in the Coquitlam segment, the combined portion would have headway of 108 seconds and the Millennium Line segment would have average headway of 270 seconds. For the combined Expo line portion, 2 of 3 trains will go to Surrey, meaning a headway of 90 seconds in the Expo portion and 135 seconds for the Surrey segment.

But.. this is more complicated than it looks... Assume the headway on the Expo line is evenly spaced - every 90s apart, so the space between trains in surrey portion would be [90s-180s-90s-180s] and Millennium portion would be [270s-270s].. now insert the Evergreen Line trains, and it would result in the spacing of [90s-90s-90s-135s-135s-90s-90s-90s-135s-135s], and the Coquitlam segment would get a funky spacing of [90s-225s-225s-90s-225s-225s]

Probably the only reasonable spacing for double coordinated scenario is to give the combined Millennium Line the same capacity as the combined Expo Line, but M-Line doesn't need that much capacity (at least before the UBC extension). So this is the reason why they didn't choose it.

It doesn't make a lot of sense. 5 minutes off peak in Coquitlam is better than what the current Millennium line or the Canada Line in Richmond get IN peak. I think that is a bit overkill for that stretch.

Lougheed is a busy station, and not all that traffic comes from the NW corridor. So I think 3-5 minute headways will be required on the current Millennium line when Evergreen line is finished, but not all the way on Evergreen line.

I think it's important to keep Millennium line trains running VCC->Waterfront. There are a lot of current riders who take Millennium line trains from the Expo Line to get to SFU, and a lot who take Millennium line trains from Production way (and beyond) around to Metrotown. Going from 1 train to 3 trains for those trips is a bit harsh. Even people from Surrey to SFU currently make only 1 transfer, 2 transfers is a bit much.

And it's popular. If it were just one or two people on the trains when they leave Lougheed heading to Braid, I could understand. But East-bound trains arrive at Lougheed all day with a lot of people on them bound for Braid and Beyond. And Westbound trains for the Millennium line at Columbia are also pretty full. Making all these people transfer is going to clog up the stations. It would be crazier than Bridgeport Station.

And I don't see how you can have trains turn around at Columbia without slowing down the trains on the Expo line. It takes a while to turn a train around. Even at Lougheed with 3 platforms, it would be tricky because at some point trains will be backing up against the flow of traffic.

I don't see why they couldn't make it work. Train timings don't need to be perfectly symmetric, they can be a bit funky when you are talking about a minute or two.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

It doesn't make a lot of sense. 5 minutes off peak in Coquitlam is better than what the current Millennium line or the Canada Line in Richmond get IN peak. I think that is a bit overkill for that stretch.

Lougheed is a busy station, and not all that traffic comes from the NW corridor. So I think 3-5 minute headways will be required on the current Millennium line when Evergreen line is finished, but not all the way on Evergreen line.

I think it's important to keep Millennium line trains running VCC->Waterfront. There are a lot of current riders who take Millennium line trains from the Expo Line to get to SFU, and a lot who take Millennium line trains from Production way (and beyond) around to Metrotown. Going from 1 train to 3 trains for those trips is a bit harsh. Even people from Surrey to SFU currently make only 1 transfer, 2 transfers is a bit much.

And it's popular. If it were just one or two people on the trains when they leave Lougheed heading to Braid, I could understand. But East-bound trains arrive at Lougheed all day with a lot of people on them bound for Braid and Beyond. And Westbound trains for the Millennium line at Columbia are also pretty full. Making all these people transfer is going to clog up the stations. It would be crazier than Bridgeport Station.

And I don't see how you can have trains turn around at Columbia without slowing down the trains on the Expo line. It takes a while to turn a train around. Even at Lougheed with 3 platforms, it would be tricky because at some point trains will be backing up against the flow of traffic.

I don't see why they couldn't make it work. Train timings don't need to be perfectly symmetric, they can be a bit funky when you are talking about a minute or two.

Without trains switching tracks I currently do not see a way that someone from Surrey can get to Coquitlam without at least 2 transfers. Which I do see being a popular corridor in the future some time.

And trains switching tracks while yes it does slow down other trains that might be approaching the station. At waterfront countless times you will see a train wait to get into the station as there are already 2 trains at the station. So other than building a 3rd track I don't see any other way without switching.

As for the bunching up of trains that happens already today so to me it is a non issue. Besides the system is smart enough to give the trailing train a slightly slower speed so as to distance itself from the front train. This is exactly why rolling block is better than fixed block.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by nname

That would be ideal, but one of the requirement is to run Evergreen Line to Coquitlam every 3 minutes during peak and 5 minutes off-peak.

Was that timing mentioned in the discussion paper? So we're saying more frequency for a line expecting less ridership than that Canada Line?

[twoNeurons]

Coquitlam won't need 3-5 min peak for a while. M-Line is still 4-6 minutes peak.

Currently, during peak and off peak, every third train on the E-Line goes to VCC.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Coquitlam won't need 3-5 min peak for a while. M-Line is still 4-6 minutes peak.

Currently, during peak and off peak, every third train on the E-Line goes to VCC.

My biggest pet peeve with the system right now is evening (6pm-midnight) service on the M-Line. Even Fri/Sat night it's horrible, feels like I'm waiting forever at Commercial to get home after a Lions game, evening out, etc.

[nname]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Was that timing mentioned in the discussion paper? So we're saying more frequency for a line expecting less ridership than that Canada Line?

3 min headway during peak is found in the business plan, discussion guide, and RTM documents. I forget where I get the off-peak number from. From the RTM document, seems like they're leaning toward running 2- or 3-cars trains [if we get them] for the Evergreen and 4- or 5-cars [again, if we get them] trains for the Expo.

Also from the same RTM document, they expect by 2021, the Evergreen Line [Lougheed-Coquitlam] will be as busy as the Canada Line in peak direction, while [Commercial-Brentwood] will be twice as busy. (For the reverse-peak, Canada Line will be 10 times busier since no one wants to go to Coquitlam )

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Coquitlam won't need 3-5 min peak for a while. M-Line is still 4-6 minutes peak.

Currently, during peak and off peak, every third train on the E-Line goes to VCC.

That simulation thing predict once Evergreen Line opens, it will pull people from NES away from Expo Line [like me], and make the current Millennium Line segment almost as busy as Expo Line.. We'll see about that

[twoNeurons]

If you're going downtown from Lougheed, it's a no-brainer to go via Columbia. It's practically the same time from Lougheed when you include the transfer.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by nname

3 min headway during peak is found in the business plan, discussion guide, and RTM documents. I forget where I get the off-peak number from. From the RTM document, seems like they're leaning toward running 2- or 3-cars trains [if we get them] for the Evergreen and 4- or 5-cars [again, if we get them] trains for the Expo.

I like shorter trains and more frequency, but I don't think better than C-Line service off the start is the best use of Skytrain cars.

That simulation thing predict once Evergreen Line opens, it will pull people from NES away from Expo Line [like me], and make the current Millennium Line segment almost as busy as Expo Line.. We'll see about that

How are people from the NES riding the Expo Line now? That's a long bus ride.

If anything this will pull people from WCE to Skytrain in the stations closest to Vancouver.

[nname]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

How are people from the NES riding the Expo Line now? That's a long bus ride.

If anything this will pull people from WCE to Skytrain in the stations closest to Vancouver.

For the people arriving at Lougheed (from North Road, Port Moody, Como Lake, etc), some take whichever train that arrives first, or the first train that is air conditioned, or just choose the Columbia train as there is no transfer and guaranteed a seat from Columbia all the way to downtown. I think it is close to 50-50 split there.

For the people arriving at Braid (from Mailiardville, Coquitlam Centre, PoCo, Ridge Meadows, etc), it is actually faster to go through Columbia than going through Lougheed. Usually there are 2/3 to 3/4 of the people going to the southbound platform.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Without trains switching tracks I currently do not see a way that someone from Surrey can get to Coquitlam without at least 2 transfers. Which I do see being a popular corridor in the future some time.

And trains switching tracks while yes it does slow down other trains that might be approaching the station. At waterfront countless times you will see a train wait to get into the station as there are already 2 trains at the station. So other than building a 3rd track I don't see any other way without switching.

As for the bunching up of trains that happens already today so to me it is a non issue. Besides the system is smart enough to give the trailing train a slightly slower speed so as to distance itself from the front train. This is exactly why rolling block is better than fixed block.

Yes, it will take 2 transfers to get from Surrey to Coquitlam. But with a shuttle train, it will take 2 transfers to do everything.

Right now, getting to SFU from Surrey is a 1 transfer trip; with short turned trains or shuttles, it will be 2 transfers (not counting the buses of course). Metrotown to SFU is 0 transfer; with a short turned train 1, and with a shuttle 2.

People complained when we added 1 transfer from bus to Canada Line for the suburban routes. How do you think people will react if we add 2 transfers for a trip that used to be 0? And you can't use the answer it will be faster for most.

And I really don't think it will be possible to turn trains around at Columbia during normal service. Currently, when they do have M-Line service turn at Columbia, it is usually during reduced service because of an "incident" or "weather". And even then I've seen trains back up because of the mass of people switching trains.

That brings up another point. If trains don't go VCC->Columbia->Waterfront then it will be hard to introduce alternative service during an "incident". Right now one of the benefits of the Millennium line is that if there is a track closure, because of a death, along the Expo Line between Nanaimo and New West (which seems to be where it always happens) people can be rerouted at Broadway onto the M-Line and take it around to Columbia. It keeps our system moving during emergencies. It doesn't happen a lot, but when it does it's nice to have that direct service that can be altered to suit our needs. If there were no more M-Line trains, we would have to take trains out of service to Coquitlam to accommodate the masses, or have one heck of a busy shuttle.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

If you're going downtown from Lougheed, it's a no-brainer to go via Columbia. It's practically the same time from Lougheed when you include the transfer.

According the the translink website travel times are

Lougheed to Commerical via M-Line = 18 Min
Lougheed to Broadway via E-Line 29 Min.

So if anyone can do the transfer faster than 11 mins at C-B then it would be quicker to take the M-line.

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Yes, it will take 2 transfers to get from Surrey to Coquitlam. But with a shuttle train, it will take 2 transfers to do everything.

Right now, getting to SFU from Surrey is a 1 transfer trip; with short turned trains or shuttles, it will be 2 transfers (not counting the buses of course). Metrotown to SFU is 0 transfer; with a short turned train 1, and with a shuttle 2.

People complained when we added 1 transfer from bus to Canada Line for the suburban routes. How do you think people will react if we add 2 transfers for a trip that used to be 0? And you can't use the answer it will be faster for most.

And I really don't think it will be possible to turn trains around at Columbia during normal service. Currently, when they do have M-Line service turn at Columbia, it is usually during reduced service because of an "incident" or "weather". And even then I've seen trains back up because of the mass of people switching trains.

That brings up another point. If trains don't go VCC->Columbia->Waterfront then it will be hard to introduce alternative service during an "incident". Right now one of the benefits of the Millennium line is that if there is a track closure, because of a death, along the Expo Line between Nanaimo and New West (which seems to be where it always happens) people can be rerouted at Broadway onto the M-Line and take it around to Columbia. It keeps our system moving during emergencies. It doesn't happen a lot, but when it does it's nice to have that direct service that can be altered to suit our needs. If there were no more M-Line trains, we would have to take trains out of service to Coquitlam to accommodate the masses, or have one heck of a busy shuttle.

I do agree with you that trains should not be short turned as a regular service. Any train that leaves Columbia heading towards saperton should end up at VCC-Clark, and any train that leave Lougheed heading towards Braid should end up at waterfront. Although in the future depending on usage patterns and what not. They might decide to short turn the odd train to relieve congestion. Just like they do at Broadway and Metrotown sometimes.

As for the whole switching thing the possible solution would be to expand Columbia station to allow a third track. Problem of course is that the station is surrounded by a building. So unless the building comes down I don't see that happening anytime soon.

On a side note. Is it me or does 5 years feel like an eternity. I want this evergreen line done now, not 5 years from now

[officedweller]

FYI - M-Line background information here:
Note the "Connectivity Report" which identifies issues dealing with interlining.
Note, however, that the report dates back to when the system design
called for a north-south Lougheed station with a south facing wye
(to enable a one seat ride to Columbia from Coquitlam and one transfer to Surrey),
as opposed to the east facing wye that was actually built.

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/Pubdocs/bcdocs/329621/SkyTrainReview.pdf

Map from the above report (showing a N-S Lougheed Station) - note that Grandview Station was subsequently deleted in its entirety and this shows the original VCC Station under Broadway rather than on the flats.



There's also another report that analyses the interlining in detail with different operational scenarios but I can't seem to find it.

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

A more convenient solution would've been having the guideway along Guildford, where you wouldn't need a spur, you'd just need to keep going South-East, but oh well.

x4

Is there any way for them to change plans? It's so logical! Why use a ridiculous spur to Poco? Just go down Guildford instead and orient it to enable an easy extension!

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by officedweller

FYI - M-Line background information here:
Note the "Connectivity Report" which identifies issues dealing with interlining.
Note, however, that the report dates back to when the system design
called for a north-south Lougheed station with a south facing wye
(to enable a one seat ride to Columbia from Coquitlam and one transfer to Surrey),
as opposed to the east facing wye that was actually built.

http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/Pubdocs/bcdocs/329621/SkyTrainReview.pdf

Map from the above report (showing a N-S Lougheed Station) - note that Grandview Station was subsequently deleted in its entirety and this shows the original VCC Station under Broadway rather than on the flats.

There's also another report that analyses the interlining in detail with different operational scenarios but I can't seem to find it.

Interesting that back then Commercial Drive Station was called Broadway/Commercial and Gilmore was aligned differently.

I can't help but think that the North South Alignment for Lougheed would've been such a better configuration.

[kylemacmac]

Anyone know why the line crosses over Como Lake Ave and North Road before going into the bored tunnel rather than using the moonscape parking lot of Burquitlam plaza? Is it difference in cost?

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I can't help but think that the North South Alignment for Lougheed would've been such a better configuration.

Yeah - it would have also been more consistent with the "T-Line" concept in the LRSP to faciliate cross-suburb commuting.

Originally Posted by kylemacmac

Anyone know why the line crosses over Como Lake Ave and North Road before going into the bored tunnel rather than using the moonscape parking lot of Burquitlam plaza? Is it difference in cost?

Probably the grade of the tunnel portal and the lengths of the blocks resulting in a deeper excavation to allow the roads to pass overhead. I suspect that the tunnel portal is diving into a hill, so the grade is shallower than if it dove down into Burquitlam Plaza.