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  #1901  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 11:31 PM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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Lets get talking about the Evergreen line again.
So........... who wants to switch technologies again?

http://www.bclocalnews.com/tri_city_maple_ridge/tricitynews/news/62426372.html

Mayors suggest Evergreen Line switch to save money


The Evergreen Line was originally proposed to run at grade using a light rail system, before the decision to use SkyTrain technology.
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By Jeff Nagel - BC Local News

Published: September 28, 2009 3:00 PM
Updated: September 28, 2009 3:09 PM

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TransLink can save $400 million in one easy step by switching plans for the Evergreen Line from expensive SkyTrain technology back to the originally envisioned at-grade light rail system.

That's the suggestion from area mayors who say the move would save a big chunk of capital money and go a long way to helping the transportation authority get on sustainable financial footing.

"Given these economic times, maybe we go back to the drawing board and have a look at it," said Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts, who also chairs the Mayors Council on Regional Transportation.

She told a Metro Vancouver board meeting Sept. 25 a shift back to light rail would save a significant amount of money and would be supported by northeast sector residents along the line.

Port Moody Mayor Joe Trasolini said he'd be happy to switch technologies away from SkyTrain if it gets the line built through his city.

"You could build it with today's budget," he said. "They've done all the technical research on it. The tunnel engineering is the same."

Coquitlam and Port Moody originally supported the light rail idea, which would have meant more local stations and a slower overall trip along the line – more of a community system than a high-speed commuter route.

"If you're going from Coquitlam Centre to Lougheed Mall and it takes two or three minutes longer is that going to kill you?" Trasolini asked.

But transportation minister Shirley Bond is defending the switch to SkyTrain technology, noting the decision was based on a solid business case and endorsed by both the province and TransLink.

"Although the Evergreen Line’s ALRT [SkyTrain] technology has higher construction costs than LRT, it has significantly lower annual operating costs, significantly shorter travel times for commuters, and would have two-and-a-half times more ridership by 2021," Bond said in a statement.

"These benefits clearly outweigh the relatively small additional cost of SkyTrain versus LRT.”

TransLink CEO Tom Prendergast told the board he has heard suggestions Ottawa might pull its funding for the Evergreen Line if federally preferred SkyTrain technology was abandoned or if the project takes too long to move forward.

He noted a significant section of the route would have to be tunneled, regardless of the technology.

And he said there would have to be a fresh cost analysis done on a light rail option.

Watts said the apparent senior government bias to SkyTrain is a problem that threatens to hurt the outlook for rapid transit extensions in Surrey as well.

"South of the Fraser, we want at-grade light rail," she said. "You see it all over the world. And for some reason it's just not on the table. So we've got to pay that much more money that we don't have."

Prendergast, who was hired a year ago, said he backs objective decision-making on rapid transit technologies for future lines – something he said hasn't happened here so far.

The renewed debate over Evergreen Line technology came as Metro Vancouver board directors passed judgment on the funding options TransLink has tabled for its new 10-year plan.

They endorsed the preferred option of TransLink and area mayors for new sources of funding from the province – such as road pricing or tolling – coupled with a vehicle levy to deliver $450 million more per year.

"Our regional land-use plan will not work if we don't have the appropriate transportation plan to support it," said Metro chief administrator Johnny Carline.

Prendergast warned them the base case scenario would force drastic cuts of 40 per cent to bus service in some areas and spell "chaos" for the region.

Another "funding stabilization" option to generate an extra $130 million a year so the region can tread water would still mean reductions of spending in some areas, he said.

Cycling infrastructure spending would be cut and road maintenance grants to cities would be reduced, leaving them to pick up those costs or scale back road repairs.

Since TransLink cannot adopt the $450-million plan – extra sources from the province are so far not forthcoming – the Metro board motion calls on TransLink to give priority for bus and rapid transit extensions to the historically underserved eastern and southern areas.

Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan, however, warned TransLink's plans are unaffordable and argued scarce funding should be used to sustain service to areas with strong existing ridership rather than areas with low transit use if cuts are required.

"There are significant subisides going into many of the South of Fraser routes that are questionable in terms of business efficiency," he said.

Some Metro directors also suggested TransLink could save money by eliminating its plan to add fare gates to the SkyTrain system to help enforce payment.

Prendergast said the capital cost of that is estimated at $70 to $80 million, but noted those costs were to be entirely covered by the provincial and federal governments.

TransLink has committed $400 million for the $1.4-billion Evergreen Line, but there's still a $173-million shortfall after federal and provincial contributions.

TransLink's share translates into annual costs of $40 to $50 million – money the authority says it can't afford with either the base plan or funding stabilization option.
     
     
  #1902  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 11:40 PM
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I believe it was said the cost difference between LRT and SkyTrain is only $150-million, definitely not $400-million, because both require almost the same amount of tunneling, elevated guideway, and at-grade guideway. Not to mention a new OMC, and a second SkyTrain OMC wouldn't just be for the Evergreen but the entire SkyTrain system.

It's absolutely asinine to suggest going back to LRT. Absolutely asinine.

And if they want community service, there's something called a bus....don't spend $1.2-billion on a bus with steel wheels that does not compete with the car.
     
     
  #1903  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2009, 11:43 PM
mrjauk mrjauk is offline
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Trasolini, don't be a —. There's an expression you may have heard that goes something like this: "penny wise, pound foolish!"

Have the provincial government sit down with Translink and map out a scheme whereby there is consistent funding sufficient to operate the system and to continue to build the system out. Is this really so difficult?
     
     
  #1904  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:24 AM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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Lets switch to the cheaper southeast route while we're at it too.


I am so sick of this, I am ready to grab a shovel and start digging the tunnel myself. Who's with me?
     
     
  #1905  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:31 AM
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^ Well actually, both LRT and SkyTrain for the northwest route require the same amount of tunneling at the same location.
     
     
  #1906  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
Lets switch to the cheaper southeast route while we're at it too.


I am so sick of this, I am ready to grab a shovel and start digging the tunnel myself. Who's with me?
Good luck. You'd get a nice hefty fine from the city for not having the permits, and WCB would also fine you for that, and for endangering yourself by digging a tunnel using only a shovel. If not that, you'd probably be buried alive and suffocate to death.
     
     
  #1907  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:35 AM
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Nooooooooo... please make it ALRT.
     
     
  #1908  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:37 AM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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LOL!

I am well aware that there is the same amount of tunneling, for the same cost in both scenarios. Sigh, if only it was that simple to get things going.

Let the politicians bicker some more I guess.
     
     
  #1909  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:38 AM
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I'd say we pull a Oceans 13....it couldn't be THAT hard and expensive to start a tunnel boring operation without anyone knowing. I mean, Clooney did it.
     
     
  #1910  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:42 AM
Kwik-E-Mart Kwik-E-Mart is offline
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Compared to the 97B the meagre time and cost savings do not warrant a tram line to be built. If bus routes like 169, 151, and 152 can easily meet or exceed LRT travel times, what is the point of constructing something that does not address the "rapid" issue (don't tell me all of them have drank Patrick Condon's Kool-Aid). I will have to side with Bond and the bad folks in Victoria in this case.
     
     
  #1911  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
I'd say we pull a Oceans 13....it couldn't be THAT hard and expensive to start a tunnel boring operation without anyone knowing. I mean, Clooney did it.
Who's starting the Facebook group? We need a snappy acronym.. I came up with North East Amateur Tunnel Organization - NEATO! What do you guys think?
     
     
  #1912  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:53 AM
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I think you people are retarded. If you want to make a difference, start bombarding the idiot mayors with letters. Organise a mass-mail-email campaign, whereby you all organise facts and figures dollar-wise and time wise (safety-wise too, use some of the street-grade LRT crash video's on youtube) between buses, LRT, and ALRT, and then argue for why going with LRT would be effectively paying for a super-expensive steel-wheeled bus, and that for only 150 million more they can have a more effective and express mass-transit line that better integrates with the current system that already serves the rest of the region. Bring up the livable region strategy (or whatever the hell that thing is called) for the added 1-2 punch.

If all the info can be neatly collected and organized on here by someone in a small blurb, all those who feel passionate about it could simply copy-paste. the whole message. Even if just 5 guys mailed once or twice a week and emailed once per day to each mayor, after a week one of the letters or emails is bound to be read, if not many more. That will get someones attention.
     
     
  #1913  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:57 AM
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Screw that. Let's get digging!
     
     
  #1914  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 12:58 AM
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Don Cheadle's on board!
     
     
  #1915  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 3:02 AM
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If they were to switch to the southern route they might find someone willing to cough up the missing dollars. But that doesn't look very likely to happen this late in the game.
     
     
  #1916  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 3:35 AM
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Quote:
Mayors suggest Evergreen Line switch to save money

The Evergreen Line was originally proposed to run at grade using a light rail system, before the decision to use SkyTrain technology.

TransLink can save $400 million in one easy step by switching plans for the Evergreen Line from expensive SkyTrain technology back to the originally envisioned at-grade light rail system.

That's the suggestion from area mayors who say the move would save a big chunk of capital money and go a long way to helping the transportation authority get on sustainable financial footing.

"Given these economic times, maybe we go back to the drawing board and have a look at it," said Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts, who also chairs the Mayors Council on Regional Transportation.

She told a Metro Vancouver board meeting Sept. 25 a shift back to light rail would save a significant amount of money and would be supported by northeast sector residents along the line.

Port Moody Mayor Joe Trasolini said he'd be happy to switch technologies away from SkyTrain if it gets the line built through his city.

"You could build it with today's budget," he said. "They've done all the technical research on it. The tunnel engineering is the same."

Coquitlam and Port Moody originally supported the light rail idea, which would have meant more local stations and a slower overall trip along the line – more of a community system than a high-speed commuter route.

"If you're going from Coquitlam Centre to Lougheed Mall and it takes two or three minutes longer is that going to kill you?" Trasolini asked.

But transportation minister Shirley Bond is defending the switch to SkyTrain technology, noting the decision was based on a solid business case and endorsed by both the province and TransLink.

"Although the Evergreen Line’s ALRT [SkyTrain] technology has higher construction costs than LRT, it has significantly lower annual operating costs, significantly shorter travel times for commuters, and would have two-and-a-half times more ridership by 2021," Bond said in a statement.

"These benefits clearly outweigh the relatively small additional cost of SkyTrain versus LRT.”

TransLink CEO Tom Prendergast told the board he has heard suggestions Ottawa might pull its funding for the Evergreen Line if federally preferred SkyTrain technology was abandoned or if the project takes too long to move forward.

He noted a significant section of the route would have to be tunneled, regardless of the technology.

And he said there would have to be a fresh cost analysis done on a light rail option.

Watts said the apparent senior government bias to SkyTrain is a problem that threatens to hurt the outlook for rapid transit extensions in Surrey as well.

"South of the Fraser, we want at-grade light rail," she said. "You see it all over the world. And for some reason it's just not on the table. So we've got to pay that much more money that we don't have."

Prendergast, who was hired a year ago, said he backs objective decision-making on rapid transit technologies for future lines – something he said hasn't happened here so far.

The renewed debate over Evergreen Line technology came as Metro Vancouver board directors passed judgment on the funding options TransLink has tabled for its new 10-year plan.

They endorsed the preferred option of TransLink and area mayors for new sources of funding from the province – such as road pricing or tolling – coupled with a vehicle levy to deliver $450 million more per year.

"Our regional land-use plan will not work if we don't have the appropriate transportation plan to support it," said Metro chief administrator Johnny Carline.

Prendergast warned them the base case scenario would force drastic cuts of 40 per cent to bus service in some areas and spell "chaos" for the region.

Another "funding stabilization" option to generate an extra $130 million a year so the region can tread water would still mean reductions of spending in some areas, he said.

Cycling infrastructure spending would be cut and road maintenance grants to cities would be reduced, leaving them to pick up those costs or scale back road repairs.

Since TransLink cannot adopt the $450-million plan – extra sources from the province are so far not forthcoming – the Metro board motion calls on TransLink to give priority for bus and rapid transit extensions to the historically underserved eastern and southern areas.

Burnaby Mayor Derek Corrigan, however, warned TransLink's plans are unaffordable and argued scarce funding should be used to sustain service to areas with strong existing ridership rather than areas with low transit use if cuts are required.

"There are significant subisides going into many of the South of Fraser routes that are questionable in terms of business efficiency," he said.

Some Metro directors also suggested TransLink could save money by eliminating its plan to add fare gates to the SkyTrain system to help enforce payment.

Prendergast said the capital cost of that is estimated at $70 to $80 million, but noted those costs were to be entirely covered by the provincial and federal governments.

TransLink has committed $400 million for the $1.4-billion Evergreen Line, but there's still a $173-million shortfall after federal and provincial contributions.

TransLink's share translates into annual costs of $40 to $50 million – money the authority says it can't afford with either the base plan or funding stabilization option.
Source:Jeff Nagel, http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/62426372.html
     
     
  #1917  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 3:40 AM
The_Henry_Man The_Henry_Man is offline
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Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
Prendergast, who was hired a year ago, said he backs objective decision-making on rapid transit technologies for future lines – something he said hasn't happened here so far.
SO TRUE!! I'm SO sick of Corrigan and Trasolini. These guys are morons and should be voted out in the next election (too bad there are a lot of lefties living there). Trasolini, in particular, loves to hold everyone hostage by playing a political game in the LRT VS Skytrain debate on the Evergreen Line. If there's anyone to blame, I would blame him himself for a significant role in recent delays in getting the Evergreen Line built (although funding issues plays a big influence too). If he cooperates with Translink/provincial gov't, they could've worked hard to pressure the feds to get even more funding so that the Evergreen Line can be built earlier. Nope, he chose to do the latter and giving the provincial/feds a hard time. If the feds do eventually withdraw that funding for the Evergreen Line, he should be held completely responsible for this circus.

I'm also very sick of mayors making regional transit decisions based on municipal politics. Please get rid of Translink and give Metro Vancouver transit responsibility back to the central control of the provincial gov't.


Seriously, I'm getting so f****** pissed off with Corrigan and Trasolini.

Last edited by The_Henry_Man; Sep 29, 2009 at 4:00 AM.
     
     
  #1918  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 4:39 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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well we can send it back to the province but then they have other growing transit systems to deal with as well...

A regional board making regional decisions rather than local ones might be better =O
     
     
  #1919  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 5:02 AM
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OMG - please you — mayors, just get the damn thing built - stop arguing whether it should be LRT or SkyTrain - the technology decision has been made - build it and move on.

Translink is so dysfunctional. Not one rapid transit line built in the region was a decision of TransLink or its predecessor - they're all decision of the Provincial govenrment. Given that record, why have Translink?
     
     
  #1920  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2009, 5:16 AM
Waders Waders is offline
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City mayors only think for short term goals as they may not be around after the next civic election.
If mayors really want to save money, then no rapid transit line should be built in their city. Just buy a few more buses to clog the roads.
They they will complain about the road condition, the bus so slow and demand something to be done to solve it. Typical politics.
     
     
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