Atlanta Beltline

[reet]

Originally Posted by cybele

A lot of people live in Atlanta in part because they don't want density. They prefer low density single family housing and have invested a lot of money and energy in improving and protecting their neighborhoods. We can say that's unwise from a planning standpoint, but still, if that's what they want and what they've worked and paid for, why shouldn't they be able to have it?

This is very true -- many Atlantans treasure their low-density neighborhoods. And I'm not advocating destroying all those neighborhoods.

There's a middle ground in here somewhere between the current situation and all density, everywhere. Atlanta can accommodate both the traditional neighborhoods dominated by detached, single-family houses and an increase in density where it makes sense, such as near major, shared public spaces and transit (like the Beltline).

Maintaining low-density, single-use neighborhoods near major public spaces and transit opportunities doesn't make sense. Such a huge percentage of this city is comprised of low-density housing -- we could lose 25% for the sake of Beltline development and still have more of it than most large cities.

[Curious Atlantan]

The plans that I have seen do not involve tearing down any single family neighborhoods. They just want to replace the extraordinarily ugly Ansley Mall area with a nice interconnected neighborhood. This can only help increase the real estate value in the area. Of course it means a little more density but if it is well managed it should be an asset down the road, increasing the vibrancy and making transit more viable.

[cybele]

Well, there a lot of people who feel that putting commercial development (or really anything other than single family homes) near their homes will ruin the neighborhood and destroy property values. Many are concerned that even adding single homes creates too much density. So those attitudes have to be addressed.

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by cybele

A lot of people live in Atlanta in part because they don't want density. They prefer low density single family housing and have invested a lot of money and energy in improving and protecting their neighborhoods. We can say that's unwise from a planning standpoint, but still, if that's what they want and what they've worked and paid for, why shouldn't they be able to have it?

Because you cannot plan a city based on the wishes of a few people don't want the city to be a city. In order to reach the kind of economic and cultural vibrancy that most people want, the city MUST have, most importantly, increased urbanism and in some cases increased density.

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by cybele

Well, there a lot of people who feel that putting commercial development (or really anything other than single family homes) near their homes will ruin the neighborhood and destroy property values. Many are concerned that even adding single homes creates too much density. So those attitudes have to be addressed.

In this plan there is already commercial development in these locations in the form of ugly strip shopping centers.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

In this plan there is already commercial development in these locations in the form of ugly strip shopping centers.

that's probably the part that drives me craziest about these people.

Ansley Mall is a dump. Midtown Promenade is hideous. Midtown place is a gigantic parking lot.

every plan presented has more attractive and active street level. yet they balk at everything.

i don't know how to get the rest of NPU-E residents to care enough. that's the dilemma. somebody who's happy with ABI isn't going to travel around going to every meeting. somebody who wants to stop a certain part of it will raise hell.

[jurban8]

Originally Posted by cybele

A lot of people live in Atlanta in part because they don't want density. They prefer low density single family housing and have invested a lot of money and energy in improving and protecting their neighborhoods. We can say that's unwise from a planning standpoint, but still, if that's what they want and what they've worked and paid for, why shouldn't they be able to have it?

I think there's a flip side to that. A lot of people also live in Atlanta because they prefer a more urban environment. There seem to be two camps here: one loves their lush lawns and big homes, while the other wants shops and restaurants downstairs and a tram to take them to where they need to go. There's room for both, although there will definitely be concessions made by both sides.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Because you cannot plan a city based on the wishes of a few people don't want the city to be a city. In order to reach the kind of economic and cultural vibrancy that most people want, the city MUST have, most importantly, increased urbanism and in some cases increased density.

I hear what you're saying, but do we actually know that most people want increased density and urbanism? It would be interesting to see some hard data on where public opinion stands on this. If in fact it's just a few die-hard old fogeys who are opposing it, that might help those who are pushing increased density. On the other hand, if the numbers don't bear that out, then maybe we should move in a different direction.

While there has certainly been growth in multifamily housing throughout the metro area, the city's single family neighborhoods continue to be a very strong draw.

[WestsideATL]

Someone should bring up this density issue with the mayoral candidates.

Sept 29 Mayoral Forum on the Beltline: Historic Resources, Transportation, and Parks
WHAT: Mayoral Forum
WHEN: Tuesday, September 29, 2009
TIME: 6:00 to 8:00pm
WHERE: All Saints Episcopal Church, 634 W Peachtree Street, NW
MODERATOR: Cathy Woolard
SPONSORS: Atlanta Preservation Center, Beltline Network, Citizens for Progressive Transit, Park Pride, PEDS.

Please join Atlanta Mayoral candidates for an evening discussing transportation, public space and the BeltLine.

[reet]

Originally Posted by cybele

I hear what you're saying, but do we actually know that most people want increased density and urbanism? It would be interesting to see some hard data on where public opinion stands on this.

I would be interested to see data on that matter too. But I don't think it would be a good idea to rely too largely on the opinion of current residents regarding densification. Atlanta is not just for the current residents but also for the future generations of residents who depend on us to help the city grow in a positive and sustainable way.

Many US and Canadian cities are moving in the direction of being more walkable and less dependent on car transit (the ones that aren't already, anyway). Atlanta has to be flexible and capable of the same kind of walkable, urban growth as other big cities or else it will fall behind as an attractive base for businesses and talent.

Expecting to keep established neighborhoods of car-dependent, single-family detached houses exactly as they are over the decades is unrealistic enough in the exurbs, but in the center of a major city that expectation borders on being unhealthy.

[cybele]

Maybe part of what I'm saying is that we should be on guard against a cookie cutter approach to urban planning. The U.S. already has scores of dense, compact, walkable, transit friendly urban cities. In many instances, however, they have proven to be unsustainable and have failed to attract or retain businesses and residents over the long haul.

So maybe there is room for more suburban style cities, too? They certainly seem to be popular with a lot of people.

[reet]

Originally Posted by cybele

Maybe part of what I'm saying is that we should be on guard against a cookie cutter approach to urban planning. The U.S. already has scores of dense, compact, walkable, transit friendly urban cities. In many instances, however, they have proven to be unsustainable and have failed to attract or retain businesses and residents over the long haul.

So maybe there is room for more suburban style cities, too? They certainly seem to be popular with a lot of people.

I see what you're saying, and I think you're right in that urban density is not for everyone and there needs to be room for choice in built environments.

Nonetheless, Norcross, Alpharetta, Marietta and others in the area are already covering the "suburban style cities" option. And that makes sense for those areas. It doesn't make sense for Atlanta to also be covering that same ground.

It does makes sense for Atlanta to be the dense, urban alternative in the metro region -- and, really, in the southeast in general since this area is under served by urban density compared to other areas in the country.

[Curious Atlantan]

Originally Posted by cybele

Maybe part of what I'm saying is that we should be on guard against a cookie cutter approach to urban planning. The U.S. already has scores of dense, compact, walkable, transit friendly urban cities. In many instances, however, they have proven to be unsustainable and have failed to attract or retain businesses and residents over the long haul.

So maybe there is room for more suburban style cities, too? They certainly seem to be popular with a lot of people.

Maybe the reason why those instances failed to attract and retain businesses is that they were too timid and going only half way. Look at Portland: they built the streetcar first to allow densification and provided less parking for residents, and now many people take transit, walk and bike, and they keep expanding the transit everywhere. It has been so successful that people choose to live there even though there are not enough jobs for them... (I guess companies are slower to pick up)

[Ansley]

Originally Posted by cybele

I hear what you're saying, but do we actually know that most people want increased density and urbanism? It would be interesting to see some hard data on where public opinion stands on this. If in fact it's just a few die-hard old fogeys who are opposing it, that might help those who are pushing increased density. On the other hand, if the numbers don't bear that out, then maybe we should move in a different direction.

While there has certainly been growth in multifamily housing throughout the metro area, the city's single family neighborhoods continue to be a very strong draw.

I don't post here often (and this post isn't a direct response to Cybele's), but do appreciate the debate and discussion. I live in Ansley Park, and in fact on a street that is right behind Ansley Promenade, in particular the ever noisy Burkhart's! Most of us in our neighborhood appreciate its beautiful greenspaces and tranquil environment. What makes the neighborhood special is that it is, in fact, in the middle of a large city. It is neighborhoods like this that make Atlanta special (and support the tax base, ugh...). And trust me, for the most part we residents would support a makeover of Ansley Mall especially something along the lines of the Beltline proposal. We are not against densification and urbanism. In fact, some of the city's most progressive leaders live in its intown neighborhoods. So, don't think we are a bunch of NIMBY's. We support the thoughtful growth of the city.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by Ansley

I don't post here often (and this post isn't a direct response to Cybele's), but do appreciate the debate and discussion. I live in Ansley Park, and in fact on a street that is right behind Ansley Promenade, in particular the ever noisy Burkhart's! Most of us in our neighborhood appreciate its beautiful greenspaces and tranquil environment. What makes the neighborhood special is that it is, in fact, in the middle of a large city. It is neighborhoods like this that make Atlanta special (and support the tax base, ugh...). And trust me, for the most part we residents would support a makeover of Ansley Mall especially something along the lines of the Beltline proposal. We are not against densification and urbanism. In fact, some of the city's most progressive leaders live in its intown neighborhoods. So, don't think we are a bunch of NIMBY's. We support the thoughtful growth of the city.

I absolutely agree with you and I don't think anyone wants to tear up Ansley or Historic Midtown. But all I ever hear at NE Beltline meetings is how horrible tall buildings are and how they don't fit in with the neighborhoods. Personally, I think the density makes these little single-home enclaves more interesting. Who wants to live next to a bunch of strip malls and surface lots.

I think the 10th/Monroe area is more problematic. There is no "edge" there to really define the Park and make it urban. ABI is advocating density (not Mason towers) and safer intersections. MNA is basically saying "why can't we just have the pretty parks and not worry about connectivity". But they *love* the Beltline in theory and they sure do support it. Just as long as they can have a suburb in the center of a city.

[Ansley]

ATLaffinity, I know you're right, but I cannot help but believe that these folks are the so-called vocal minority. The rest of us? We just want it done thoughtfully. Remember the folks who so vehemently opposed the Atlanta Botanical Gardens and Piedmont Park garage? Same crowd I suspect...

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by cybele

I hear what you're saying, but do we actually know that most people want increased density and urbanism? It would be interesting to see some hard data on where public opinion stands on this. If in fact it's just a few die-hard old fogeys who are opposing it, that might help those who are pushing increased density. On the other hand, if the numbers don't bear that out, then maybe we should move in a different direction.

While there has certainly been growth in multifamily housing throughout the metro area, the city's single family neighborhoods continue to be a very strong draw.

Even without taking a poll of every citizen, what we do know is that plans like what the Beltline is proposing are the way to build a city that people want to be in. This is not a new concept. We also know that the Beltline has overwhelming support in the city and economic redevelopment is a key part of the Beltline.

Again, there is already commercial development in the areas in question, most of which is pretty unattractive. Its not as if we're talking about demolishing one single home or changing single family neighborhoods into something else.

[cybele]

Did anybody go to the big mayoral forum on the Beltline? Just wondering what they had to say.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by cybele

Did anybody go to the big mayoral forum on the Beltline? Just wondering what they had to say.

Yeah, it was pretty much more of the same. They all support the Beltline, walkability, etc, but mostly don't have specific details on how to get funding or implement the system.

Overall, Lisa and Kasim looked the best, in my opinion. Slight advantage to Lisa, she seemed the most knowledgeable and personable.

In a hilarious sidenote, Mary Norwood was actually late to the Beltline/transportation forum because she was stuck in traffic.

[cybele]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Yeah, it was pretty much more of the same. They all support the Beltline, walkability, etc, but mostly don't have specific details on how to get funding or implement the system.

Kassim Reed might have some pretty good connections on that. Something like a regional SPLOST could pump in some big money fast.

Did any of them talk about starting with the most viable part and then building up from there? I know there are pros and cons to that approach.