HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Transportation & Infrastructure


View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1741  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2009, 12:47 AM
deasine deasine is offline
Vancouver Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
Cities with above-ground, at-grade systems are constantly dealing with longer commuter times, traffic jams and snarl-ups, and a visual and local destruction of the urban environment.
I know what you mean, but I feel it's really important to correct this statement. In fact, this isn't necessarily true. The reasons why Calgary, Portland (MAX), etc. light rail systems work inexpensively is that they are built on their own ROW outside of the city core.

For areas like the South of Fraser, where their main arteries don't have as many intersections as like an artery in Vancouver, Broadway for instance, it works fine. But of course, with the many intersections Broadway has, it doesn't work as well.

I wouldn't, also, say LRTs are visual/local distractions. Quite often, streetscape is improved because of the additions of new infrastructure.
     
     
  #1742  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2009, 9:49 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,048
Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
I know what you mean, but I feel it's really important to correct this statement. In fact, this isn't necessarily true. The reasons why Calgary, Portland (MAX), etc. light rail systems work inexpensively is that they are built on their own ROW outside of the city core.

For areas like the South of Fraser, where their main arteries don't have as many intersections as like an artery in Vancouver, Broadway for instance, it works fine. But of course, with the many intersections Broadway has, it doesn't work as well.

I wouldn't, also, say LRTs are visual/local distractions. Quite often, streetscape is improved because of the additions of new infrastructure.
As a counterpont, I agree with you that above-ground systems work where there aren't many intersections, and the trains can operate at a good speed. But first, does this apply to Broadway? Hardly. The trains would be stopping for red lights like everyone else. Secondly, is Brodaway WIDE enough in all sections? In some places, yes; in others not at all.

Lastly, I just don't get it when you say the streetscape is improved because of "the new infrastructure" unless you mean that trains going down the middle of the street add a certain "European charm" as in many cities like Vienna or Budapest, (where verything now is UNDERGROUND). But every person has his/her own vision, and I respect that.
     
     
  #1743  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2009, 4:54 PM
fever's Avatar
fever fever is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
Lastly, I just don't get it when you say the streetscape is improved because of "the new infrastructure" unless you mean that trains going down the middle of the street add a certain "European charm" as in many cities like Vienna or Budapest, (where verything now is UNDERGROUND). But every person has his/her own vision, and I respect that.
There are many tram lines in Vienna and Budapest. Budapest even has a surface light rail line with ridiculously long six-segment trams that should (and probably will) become a metro.
     
     
  #1744  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2009, 8:17 PM
deasine deasine is offline
Vancouver Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
Lastly, I just don't get it when you say the streetscape is improved because of "the new infrastructure" unless you mean that trains going down the middle of the street add a certain "European charm" as in many cities like Vienna or Budapest, (where verything now is UNDERGROUND). But every person has his/her own vision, and I respect that.
Whenever LRT is installed, for the most part, cities beautify the street by adding trees, improved pedestrian infrastructure/biking infrastructure, street-themed lighting and furniture, etc. Of course, you could do this with underground, but there's a less of a tendency to improve the streetscape above.

According to the 1999 City of Vancouver technical study, if LRT was installed on Broadway, they noted that there is a potential in improving streetscape on Broadway as a result of LRT. Let me just make myself clear though, I don't agree there should be LRT on Broadway, like many of you know already.
     
     
  #1745  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 6:08 AM
cabotp cabotp is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,813
Well that is one of the benefits to cut and cover. It forces the city to fix up the street level somewhat.

Of course we'd have 3-4 years of wah wah wah wah wah
     
     
  #1746  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 6:35 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,742
one thing that you might be forgetting is the speed at which both progresses. Street renovations can take probably a few weeks to a month depending on street width and space (and it won't be as big of a headache)... but tunnel construction can last several months (and enough to drive lots of customers and businesses out).
     
     
  #1747  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 2:01 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
loafing in lotusland
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lotusland
Posts: 6,114
FAR fewer businesses on 10th however.
     
     
  #1748  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 5:55 PM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 898
Lightbulb

UBC Line Route:

How is this for a route?
From VCC Clark above ground following the rail corridor until Brunswick, then bored tunnel till Manitoba and 8th.
Cut and Cover from Manitoba and 8th following 8th. Stay on 8th into Point Gray (Grade is 5.6%)
Chancellor BVLD on to College Highroad
Parallel golf course then cut through short section of the forest 300m and go onto University BVLD into UBC
OR College High Road into UBC right into the current bus loop
     
     
  #1749  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 6:49 PM
Metro-One's Avatar
Metro-One Metro-One is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Japan
Posts: 17,993
Quote:
one thing that you might be forgetting is the speed at which both progresses. Street renovations can take probably a few weeks to a month depending on street width and space (and it won't be as big of a headache)... but tunnel construction can last several months (and enough to drive lots of customers and businesses out).
A good example is Granville! The thing is look how slow Granville is taking and then think if they were also installing LRT rails, reorganizing all of the utilities and building stations. It would be a mess that would also last years.
__________________
Bridging the Gap
Check out my Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/30634635@N03/with/29495547810/ and Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV0_0h9qKlhxXFxuAey_q6Q
     
     
  #1750  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 6:53 PM
Overground's Avatar
Overground Overground is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 904
Quote:
UBC Line Route:

How is this for a route?
From VCC Clark above ground following the rail corridor until Brunswick, then bored tunnel till Manitoba and 8th.
Cut and Cover from Manitoba and 8th following 8th. Stay on 8th into Point Gray (Grade is 5.6%)
Chancellor BVLD on to College Highroad
Parallel golf course then cut through short section of the forest 300m and go onto University BVLD into UBC
OR College High Road into UBC right into the current bus loop
One of the city's principal trunk sewers runs under the length of 8th Ave.
     
     
  #1751  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 6:57 PM
racc racc is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,241
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/698499

Rumbling and grumbling on St. Clair
Quote:
DONOVAN VINCENT
CITY HALL BUREAU
It's about two years behind schedule, has ballooned in cost by $10 million, and the construction has been interminable.

A highly publicized court challenge by residents delayed it, and everyone from motorists to merchants, cyclists to firefighters, has had their beefs.

But by this time next year the entire six-kilometre dedicated St. Clair streetcar line, from Yonge to just west of Keele St., should be finished. The TTC and the city have touted the right-of-way as the wave of the future – the answer to a cry for more reliable transit service along a busy midtown corridor.

Will those promised gains be worth the pain?

Mayor David Miller is aggressively pushing his multi-billion-dollar Transit City plan, which calls for a network of seven light-rail routes similar to the one on St. Clair, to roll out over the next several years.

The aim is transit that's cheaper and quicker to build than subways and that, with raised curbs and limits on left turns, gets cars out of the way. The Sheppard East LRT, the first Transit City line, is to break ground within weeks.

So St. Clair has become a sort of litmus test.

Large sections are finished or near completion, but there's still fierce debate about its usefulness.

Optician Patricia Raymond, who operates an eyewear business on St. Clair, east of Avenue Rd., doesn't believe the "devastating'' construction work she endured was worth it. The section between Yonge and the St. Clair West subway station was completed in 2007 and runs in front of her store.

"The streets were so backed up (during construction) that it took an hour to drive here from a few blocks away. So people just didn't bother to come, and my business hasn't returned to normal yet,'' says Raymond, who has been operating there for 21 years.

"If you ask me if it was better before, I say yes." The right-of-way "is ugly and it just looks like a sea of concrete now,'' Raymond says.

Too much was sacrificed for what boils down to slightly improved service during rush hour but virtually empty streetcars the rest of the time, Raymond argues.

The TTC has no data yet to indicate how that completed section is performing, TTC chair Adam Giambrone said last week. Studies won't be available until sometime after the full line is operational.

But on the streetcar line, the point isn't really about improving speed, says Giambrone.

"No stops (on the St. Clair line) were removed, unlike the new LRT routes, which actually double or triple the space between stops. That's where you begin to pick up speed,'' he explains.

Buses and streetcars average about 18 km/h; subway trains about 32 km/h. Transit City's light rail cars are expected to hit a happy medium of 24 km/h.

Before construction, the entire St. Clair line served 32,000 passengers a day. It took about 30 minutes to ride from end to end.

The dedicated line won't shave many minutes off that, the TTC admits, but with cars out of the way it will take the guesswork out of travelling. Another streetcar will be always be along soon.

"It's like the old adage: there's always a car in sight on Spadina,'' Giambrone says, referring to the Spadina streetcar right-of-way, which opened in 1997.

The Spadina line went through the same growing pains as St. Clair, but 12 years out, ridership has "almost doubled'' and there's a huge increase in reliability, Giambrone argues. "Three or four years from now, things will be good on St. Clair."

Rider Alan Madras, 50, a computer programmer, says that despite some bugs in the design he already finds the streetcar between the St. Clair West subway and Yonge quite convenient.

Councillor Joe Mihevc got an earful from irate residents and businesses during the 2006 election, when construction had left the stretch in his area – from Bathurst close to Oakwood – looking like a war zone. But he still won that vote handily, in what he calls a referendum on the right-of-way.

"If I'd lost here (Ward 21, St. Paul's), Transit City would not be happening,'' Mihevc now says.

Still, there's widespread grumbling. Delays have added $10 million to the TTC's overall cost for the project – it's now at $75 million, transit commission staff say. One reason is that buses are running along unfinished sections, which carry half as many passengers as streetcars. That means higher costs for fuel and wages.

Mihevc says work on that stretch was slowed significantly because other infrastructure projects – replacing water mains and old gas pipes, burying hydro lines – were piggybacked on the work.

Toronto's fire department also expressed safety concerns about the right of way in an internal report last year that described it as unusable for emergency response, and "without doubt unsafe."

Trucks, it said, would smash into the central power traction poles or suffer damaged tires on the curbs, with the width of the pavement only 6 metres instead of the usual 9.

But Fire Chief Bill Stewart downplayed the report, giving the line a thumbs-up.

TTC staff say city repairs to roads and sidewalks will create a consistent height between the road and right-of-way and better allow movement on and off the line for emergency vehicles. Minor fixes in key areas near some side streets will also improve access.

But critics like Jeff Gillan, executive director of the Corso Italia BIA, which represents businesses near Dufferin and St. Clair, say the project is a great example of how not to build transit.

"The city was incompetent in managing this project. There's no reason for it to have taken this long,'' he says.

He believes about 50 businesses in his BIA, which represents about 200 in all, went down due to the construction. Though many have been replaced, about a half-dozen or so vacancies remain.

He's also annoyed no new Green-P parking lots were built in his area as part of the project.

Meanwhile, there will be five new parking lots when work in Mihevc's portion is complete, where before there was zero off-street parking.
     
     
  #1752  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 7:13 AM
Vonny Vonny is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overground View Post
One of the city's principal trunk sewers runs under the length of 8th Ave.
...and 8th start to be to far from the Main corridor (+ elevation issue)

...what about, forget VCC and current Commercial Millenium location, and start the line under the 10th all the way along from Victoria and 10th (that means also relocating Commercial Millenium station north of Broadway)?

but that make all a straight line, able to use trench and cover, so eventually end up cheaper.
     
     
  #1753  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 8:16 AM
Lover Fighter's Avatar
Lover Fighter Lover Fighter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Van
Posts: 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by tybuilding View Post
UBC Line Route:

How is this for a route?
From VCC Clark above ground following the rail corridor until Brunswick, then bored tunnel till Manitoba and 8th.
Cut and Cover from Manitoba and 8th following 8th. Stay on 8th into Point Gray (Grade is 5.6%)
Chancellor BVLD on to College Highroad
Parallel golf course then cut through short section of the forest 300m and go onto University BVLD into UBC
OR College High Road into UBC right into the current bus loop
I was just in Vancouver last weekend enjoying my first ride of the Canada Line and was going over a map trying to figure out my own proposal for a UBC skytrain line. This was essentially the same route I had planned, but with the issues of sewage pipes and elevation difference raised here, I see it's not so simple.
     
     
  #1754  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 9:00 AM
deasine deasine is offline
Vancouver Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonny View Post
...and 8th start to be to far from the Main corridor (+ elevation issue)

...what about, forget VCC and current Commercial Millenium location, and start the line under the 10th all the way along from Victoria and 10th (that means also relocating Commercial Millenium station north of Broadway)?

but that make all a straight line, able to use trench and cover, so eventually end up cheaper.
Reconfiguring it is more expensive trust me. Just work with what you have: since the Millennium Line was designed to extend from VCC/Clark, then extend it from there! You are new, but in case you don't know, check out ubcskytrain.wordpress.com. There are different links to basic engineering plans conducted by the CoV about the Millennium Line. The plan is to extend it elevated to Fraser using existing ROW (station called Finning), then tunnel it down under, turning south, then onto 10th Avenue, where it then heads westbound from there.

The benefits of having 10th Avenue as the SkyTrain corridor is because for a few stations, you can have ramps heading down onto the platform level w/o use of elevator/escalator. Basically, the SkyTrain tunnel will almost be at the same elevation as Broadway street-level. Having the SkyTrain go on 8th, ignoring sewers, will have the platform buried deep below the ground, making it more expensive to build stations. 8th is also lower than Broadway, meaning there will be longer escalators, longer elevators, etc, leading to safety concerns in case of an emergency.
     
     
  #1755  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 4:26 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,303
Would it be feasible to include the eastern segment of this line, from VCC-Clark to Broadway-City Hall, in the Evergreen Line project? Could it be done for example if the Evergreen project was granted another $600 million? The Evergreen Line will already have a tunnel boring machine procured, which presumably would be adequate to dig the Broadway line. I wonder how much more expensive it would be to build the first part of the bored tunnel route (i.e. west to Cambie to join the Canada Line) in 2014, and get that finished and operational. Would it be prohibitively expensive to restart construction westward from Cambie to UBC later? I guess you'd need a massive bus loop at Cambie and Broadway...
     
     
  #1756  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 4:47 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
loafing in lotusland
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lotusland
Posts: 6,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
Would it be feasible to include the eastern segment of this line, from VCC-Clark to Broadway-City Hall, in the Evergreen Line project? Could it be done for example if the Evergreen project was granted another $600 million? The Evergreen Line will already have a tunnel boring machine procured, which presumably would be adequate to dig the Broadway line. I wonder how much more expensive it would be to build the first part of the bored tunnel route (i.e. west to Cambie to join the Canada Line) in 2014, and get that finished and operational. Would it be prohibitively expensive to restart construction westward from Cambie to UBC later? I guess you'd need a massive bus loop at Cambie and Broadway...
We can hope that is the suggestion that comes out of the M-Line study. If they plan for it, I can't see it being prohibitively expensive to restart construction, but who knows. I don't know why you'd need a bus loop at Cambie and Broadway. Buses would continue on to Commercial still. It would primarily be a downtown relief line.

Remember, the technology West of Broadway hasn't "officially" been chosen. I can't remember if the preliminary study is due this year or next.
     
     
  #1757  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 5:51 PM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Reconfiguring it is more expensive trust me. Just work with what you have: since the Millennium Line was designed to extend from VCC/Clark, then extend it from there! You are new, but in case you don't know, check out ubcskytrain.wordpress.com. There are different links to basic engineering plans conducted by the CoV about the Millennium Line. The plan is to extend it elevated to Fraser using existing ROW (station called Finning), then tunnel it down under, turning south, then onto 10th Avenue, where it then heads westbound from there.

The benefits of having 10th Avenue as the SkyTrain corridor is because for a few stations, you can have ramps heading down onto the platform level w/o use of elevator/escalator. Basically, the SkyTrain tunnel will almost be at the same elevation as Broadway street-level. Having the SkyTrain go on 8th, ignoring sewers, will have the platform buried deep below the ground, making it more expensive to build stations. 8th is also lower than Broadway, meaning there will be longer escalators, longer elevators, etc, leading to safety concerns in case of an emergency.
I agree, 10th is better for all those reasons. As well, the Canada Line Station is between Broadway and 10th so a Millennium line station on 10th and Cambie would make it as close as possible and an almost instant transfer between the two lines.

If it went down 8th, I would have to be elevated.

By continuing from VCC and having a station in the Finning area, the line would be serving a potentially huge redevelopment of False Creek Flats. There is always talk of some kind of super development in there, like a high tech office park. Personally, I would love to see it become the location of the often talked about University of Vancouver. It could incorporate the Great Northern Way campus. I really think we should have a new University and stop having our 2 exiting ones (and few colleges) spread all over the city. I also think having a new University in that area would further spur on Transit usage and be a key factor in forcing the development of the Millennium line extension. A full blown University located in the False Creek Flats would be central and reachable by all Skytrain lines.
     
     
  #1758  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 6:47 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,303
^ That would be a very expensive place to build a full-fledged university.
     
     
  #1759  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 7:22 PM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
^ That would be a very expensive place to build a full-fledged university.
So?

But, not as expensive as anywhere else in the City. UBC is using space in Robson Square, and SFU has stuff in the high rent areas of downtown as well.

Most other major cities in the world have a city University located in their core area. And having a major University (and not just an out campus) located in or near downtown would be good for both education in BC and for the city of Vancouver itself. If there is one major contributing factor to Vancouver being No-Fun-couver its the lack of a major University with residences, located downtown. A large student body brings a different, and better night life (when compared to the Surrey Migration for downtown drinking we currently have). I also think that everything being either SFU or UBC is hurting BC innovation, there is something to be said about options and competition.

It has been talked about for a while to have a Vancouver University, and being located right on the Millennium line extension would be perfect. Having 2 major schools (along with some smaller colleges) along the same line would be huge for ridership.
     
     
  #1760  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2009, 8:11 PM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 898
Arrow 10th Ave vs 8th Ave

The reason I was looking at 10th Ave was that it avoided routes where fairly major traffic was on, such as 10th after the diversion from 12th Ave and the Point Grey hill.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:44 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.