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  #201  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2009, 8:30 PM
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Is it possible to build a parkade under an arena, of all the pictures i've seen of stadiums and arenas i've only seen them with huge parking lots surrounding them. With the exception of MSG.

Coulden't they do this with a new arena in Calgary, and use the space that would have been parking, for something that contributes to the area?

I'm thinking about the impact that a huge parking lot would have on the stampede trail development, if the arena did infact get built there, but there were acres of parking lot behind it.

this also applies to the round up centre, why didn't they build parking underneath?
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  #202  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2009, 10:07 PM
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Every argument against public funding of an arena can also be used against public funding of art galleries, museums, science centres, zoos, theatres, etc. Would your life REALLY change if the Bow museum left? Would you leave Calgary over it?

Pro sports fall into the same cultural category, bring in the same kind of tourism, and give a city the same cachet on the national/world stage.

I mean, unless you don't like sports. Much as I couldn't give a shit about ballet or opera - but at least I recognize the importance of supporting a diverse cultural and entertainment scene.
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  #203  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2009, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Every argument against public funding of an arena can also be used against public funding of art galleries, museums, science centres, zoos, theatres, etc. Would your life REALLY change if the Bow museum left? Would you leave Calgary over it?

Pro sports fall into the same cultural category, bring in the same kind of tourism, and give a city the same cachet on the national/world stage.

I mean, unless you don't like sports. Much as I couldn't give a shit about ballet or opera - but at least I recognize the importance of supporting a diverse cultural and entertainment scene.
Damn, good point. But then again, why do we fund art galleries, museums, zoos and theatres? Not saying that I don't recognize their cultural importance. But why don't graffiti, break dancers, monster truck shows, etc get funding? Any financial support of the arts (which I totally agree with) involves a tacit judgment of what is deserving art (which I don't agree with). Hence my opposition to tax money going to a stadium.
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  #204  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 12:19 AM
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Yeah, it's a bit of a pickle.

I don't necessarily support tax money spent on an arena, but having seen firsthand what can happen when we don't... plus what can happen when we do. Little thing called the Olympics and all.
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  #205  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 3:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Every argument against public funding of an arena can also be used against public funding of art galleries, museums, science centres, zoos, theatres, etc. Would your life REALLY change if the Bow museum left? Would you leave Calgary over it?

Pro sports fall into the same cultural category, bring in the same kind of tourism, and give a city the same cachet on the national/world stage.

I mean, unless you don't like sports. Much as I couldn't give a shit about ballet or opera - but at least I recognize the importance of supporting a diverse cultural and entertainment scene.
Museums rarely request a brand new, half billion dollar facility every quarter century. If the Glenbow tried it would be laughed out of the room.

As much as I enjoy hockey it simply is not on the same level as the things you mentioned. It is a for profit enterprise, no one makes money from museums.
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  #206  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 3:23 AM
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As much as I enjoy hockey it simply is not on the same level as the things you mentioned. It is a for profit enterprise, no one makes money from museums.
Hockey often doesn't make a profit either, just look at Phoenix.

I guess in my mind the biggest thing is "how many people benefit" when it comes to spending public dollars. We have no problem with tax money going to things a small number of people use (most cultural facilities, let's face it, are not used by the masses) and yet there's a huge uproar over spending money on something that 20,000 people attend every night.
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  #207  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Hockey often doesn't make a profit either, just look at Phoenix.

I guess in my mind the biggest thing is "how many people benefit" when it comes to spending public dollars. We have no problem with tax money going to things a small number of people use (most cultural facilities, let's face it, are not used by the masses) and yet there's a huge uproar over spending money on something that 20,000 people attend every night.
Plus with the price of concessions you'd think the city would make it back in tax dollars in one night.

Also, actually attracting concerts, and etc., to come to Calgary would be a boost.
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  #208  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 1:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
Every argument against public funding of an arena can also be used against public funding of art galleries, museums, science centres, zoos, theatres, etc. Would your life REALLY change if the Bow museum left? Would you leave Calgary over it?

Pro sports fall into the same cultural category, bring in the same kind of tourism, and give a city the same cachet on the national/world stage.

I mean, unless you don't like sports. Much as I couldn't give a shit about ballet or opera - but at least I recognize the importance of supporting a diverse cultural and entertainment scene.
Fantastic point. The Calgary Zoo has received 100's of millions in public funding over the past ten years, and the Jubilee had $90 million worth of renovations in 2005.
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  #209  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 1:49 PM
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Heh, I have been to all of those places only once, and I've lived in Calgary for 20 years.

Well, the Glenbow Museum once... Jubilee... once... the Zoo, maybe twice? Science centre once! I didn't even know we had other museums...

So... valid point

And I'm a Flames STH, so, I'm a little biased... I would love a new arena to bring us up to a certain standard set by any arena built in the last 10 - 15 years.

Last edited by Yume-sama; Sep 13, 2009 at 3:38 PM.
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  #210  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2009, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by GoflamesGo View Post
Is it possible to build a parkade under an arena, of all the pictures i've seen of stadiums and arenas i've only seen them with huge parking lots surrounding them. With the exception of MSG.

Coulden't they do this with a new arena in Calgary, and use the space that would have been parking, for something that contributes to the area?

I'm thinking about the impact that a huge parking lot would have on the stampede trail development, if the arena did infact get built there, but there were acres of parking lot behind it.

this also applies to the round up centre, why didn't they build parking underneath?
I did a little research, nothing too in depth and the only arena I could find with underground parking was the American Airlines Arena in Miami. I don't see why it would be impossible or hard to do, however, I am not a structural engineer. Likely, you would not want underground parking directly under the arena surface due to loads and such. But if the underground parking was built in to the surrounding structure it might work. I imagine that part of the issue may also be timelines. The time and cost to excavate and then consturct a large underground parkade befitting of a venue such as an arena is considerable. Most teams are concerned with the speed at which an arena can be constructed. ( am I just going on?)

I still think that it would be a SOLID nightmare to get out of the underground lot after an event. That being said, I am sure there would be numerous fans willing to pay big bucks to park their vehicles in the warmth of an underground lot. It could be a serious cash cow.

I agree that it would be a nice change to the surroundings of modern day stadia.
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  #211  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2009, 9:11 PM
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The nice thing about the sea of parking surrounding the Saddledome is that it gives plenty of room for the midway and other things put up during Stampede. It would be pretty hard to justify all that open land throughout the rest of the year otherwise. You could have acres of greenspace, but it would be destroyed by the midway.
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  #212  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2009, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Innersoul1 View Post
I did a little research, nothing too in depth and the only arena I could find with underground parking was the American Airlines Arena in Miami. I don't see why it would be impossible or hard to do, however, I am not a structural engineer. Likely, you would not want underground parking directly under the arena surface due to loads and such. But if the underground parking was built in to the surrounding structure it might work. I imagine that part of the issue may also be timelines. The time and cost to excavate and then consturct a large underground parkade befitting of a venue such as an arena is considerable. Most teams are concerned with the speed at which an arena can be constructed. ( am I just going on?)

I still think that it would be a SOLID nightmare to get out of the underground lot after an event. That being said, I am sure there would be numerous fans willing to pay big bucks to park their vehicles in the warmth of an underground lot. It could be a serious cash cow.

I agree that it would be a nice change to the surroundings of modern day stadia.
Not being an engineer, I could be wrong in what I am about to say. Firstly, if parking can be built under a 60 storey sky scraper, it can be build under a stadium. The only issue would be how many columns and how far apart they need to be. Since parking doesnt need wide open spans like say office space of bleachers, I can imagine they could build several floors of parking under a stadium. Secondly the area directly under the arena surface (Im thinking you mean the field/rink) would have the smallest loads and the greatest loads would be under the bleachers. Thirdly, getting out would be just as much of a pain in the ass as surface, the only difference is you need proper ventilation so that idling engines dont suffocate everyone. I would think you would need at least four entrances/exits, one on each side of the block
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  #213  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2009, 3:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
I guess in my mind the biggest thing is "how many people benefit" when it comes to spending public dollars. We have no problem with tax money going to things a small number of people use (most cultural facilities, let's face it, are not used by the masses) and yet there's a huge uproar over spending money on something that 20,000 people attend every night.
I agree completely... a few tax dollars going towards a great facility for years to come versus the Winnipeg Syndrome of a pro hockey town with no pro hockey. I know what I'd choose!
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  #214  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2009, 4:13 AM
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Thirdly, getting out would be just as much of a pain in the ass as surface, the only difference is you need proper ventilation so that idling engines dont suffocate everyone. I would think you would need at least four entrances/exits, one on each side of the block
Except multiply your pain by the number of levels of parking. On the surface, a lot can clear out in 4 directions.. per lot. Stack 6 lots on top of each other, and you're still limited to 4 exits.

One thing I've always been impressed about the Stampede grounds is how quickly the parking lots empty out after Flames games, compared to just about anywhere else I've been. Not sure how much is due to fluke of design (it's a huge parking area, really, separated by many buildings) and how much is just the volume of people walking/C-training it, but either way it's amazing. Even the best planned US parking lots take longer to clear - and yes, I'm talking after a hockey game, and they don't exactly sell out too often down there (and EVERYONE drives).
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  #215  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2009, 8:17 AM
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Originally Posted by GoflamesGo View Post
Is it possible to build a parkade under an arena, of all the pictures i've seen of stadiums and arenas i've only seen them with huge parking lots surrounding them. With the exception of MSG.

Coulden't they do this with a new arena in Calgary, and use the space that would have been parking, for something that contributes to the area?

I'm thinking about the impact that a huge parking lot would have on the stampede trail development, if the arena did infact get built there, but there were acres of parking lot behind it.

this also applies to the round up centre, why didn't they build parking underneath?
Just for the record, GM Place in Vancouver has a 2 or 3 level parkade under the arena floor and it works fine with just 2 exits
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  #216  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2009, 3:40 PM
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The Verizon Center in Washington has underground parking as well.

I don't think there's an engineering issue with putting the parking underground. Ice level at Madison Square Garden is four floors above the street, and there's a ~3000 seat auditorium underneath, and North America's busiest train station underneath that.
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  #217  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2009, 9:31 PM
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FYI... there will be an interesting panel discussion tonight on Downtown arenas and public funding for said facilities on both the Edmonton and Calgary Access ( channel 9 edm/13 cal) tonight at 7 and 11pm.

... you might even recognize a guest
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  #218  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2009, 6:03 PM
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link to panel discussion on Alberta Arena funding

http://www.albertaprimetime.com/Default.aspx?FlashVars=Video/PT_Arenas.flv
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  #219  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 9:57 PM
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From the Globe and Mail

Saddledome sponsorship deal could ride off into sunset

Calgary's most visible corporate nameplate may come up for grabs next summer as sponsor mulls a possible exit from the venue's naming rights


BY NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE CALGARY

Last updated on Monday, Sep. 21, 2009 03:29AM EDT


Calgary's most visible corporate nameplate may come up for grabs next summer as the Alberta businessman who made his company the Saddledome's chief sponsor mulls a possible exit from the venue's naming rights.

Jim Kinnear, whose Pengrowth Management Ltd. bought rights to the Pengrowth Saddledome in 2000, is pondering giving up the high profile sponsorship, sources close to the company said
.

The seeds of a potential exit were sown this summer, when Mr. Kinnear's long-time association with Pengrowth Energy Trust, (PGF.UN-T9.760.030.31%) a multibillion-dollar company he founded, began to wane. Mr. Kinnear's company had for many years held a management contract with the trust. But that contract, worth an average of $8-million a year in the past three years, came to an end in June. Then Mr. Kinnear retired as chairman and chief executive officer of Pengrowth Energy Corp., which administers the trust, last week. He remains a director.

Asked whether he will continue the Saddledome sponsorship, now that his ties to the company are much diminished, he replied: “A very good question.”

“We had the naming rights there for 10 years. It's up for renewal June 30. And we're just considering options,” he said. “Hopefully we've been able to contribute to a very strong franchise, a very strong operation in the past. But then we have to see what we do going forward.”

Mr. Kinnear said a decision on whether to maintain the naming rights remains a “work in progress.” However, he said he plans to use a new name, rather than Pengrowth, for future ventures, to avoid confusing his company with the public company it is no longer tied to.

For its part, Pengrowth Energy Trust is not interested in assuming the naming rights, said vice-president and chief of staff Jim Donihee. The trust “has indicated that we don't have an intention to carry that on,” he said. The naming rights “actually belonged to Jim anyways. It's his decision as to whether he wants to enter into negotiations with the Flames and carry that forward or not.”

A well-known Calgary philanthropist, Mr. Kinnear has never made public how much the naming contract is worth. It was signed a year after Air Canada paid $40-million in a 20-year deal for the Air Canada Centre in Toronto, and came as a huge boost to the then-struggling Flames.

The contract included an agreement by Mr. Kinnear's company to buy 200 season tickets annually.

Flames president Ken King has said the naming rights are of “enormous” importance as a stable source of revenue.

In a brief interview, Mr. King declined to comment on whether Mr. Kinnear's company has renewed the naming contract.

“That's obviously confidential information,” he said. “We have a fully executed agreement with them. They've been exceptional naming rights partners and we're thrilled to be continuing on with them.”

Tough economic times could make it more difficult for companies, especially those in the hard-hit oil patch that have typically sponsored Calgary institutions, to spend the millions to get their name on a venue like the Saddledome, said Todd Hirsch, senior economist with ATB Financial.

“We're still at a very weak point in the cycle here, and companies in Alberta are going to be examining every cent that goes out the door,” he said. “They're going to have to be really certain that this is going to give them some return. And that may or may not be the case with [a] high-profile sponsorship like this.”

Natural gas companies have been especially hammered by the downturn. Banks, however, have done sufficiently well that Bank of Montreal unveiled a major Calgary Stampede sponsorship this July. And the revival of crude prices has put oil companies on solid enough footing that they may consider a major sponsorship, said Adam Legge, chief economist at Calgary Economic Development.

“When you begin to see signs of recovery, that's when it's strategic to begin some of your marketing, so you're positioned well on the upside,” he said.

“It's just a matter of, are companies still realizing that as part of their brand strategy? I really don't know whether it's as popular as it used to be.”


Link:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-inv...uld-ride-off-into-sunset/article1294884/
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  #220  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 10:08 PM
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Calgarypuck thread on the Saddledome name:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=79645
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