PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown I

[AaronPGH]

I don't go downtown because most of my "going out" is to venues with acts playing that I want to see. Downtown has a real lack of small, cutting edge music venues and bars that would host stuff. All of that exists currently in the east end, near people's homes.

If they built it, I would come.

Also, I looked at an apartment downtown. I toured the Century on 7th building...the supposedly "affordable" apartment building. Affordable it is not. They took major shortcuts on quality, wall thickness, etc, to attain their prices. And those prices do not come with a parking space either. It's an extra $200 a month for parking. When you add everything up, the monthly rent in that building is near $1100 for a 1 bedroom. I am paying that same amount for a gorgeous 2 bedroom w/ office in the south side. The choice is clear.

[hyperion1110]

Originally Posted by Wiz Khalifa

For those of you that still don't fully comprehend the importance of making downtown a bustling 24/7 place, there is this to help you take notice:




http://www.popcitymedia.com/features/worldviews0902.aspx


If we don't want ignorant visitors like this who never leave downtown to continue making publicized inaccurate sweeping generalizations of the entire city, then it remains imperative that downtown be developed out to its full potential in the coming years.

But you gotta love this idiotic tourist thinking a city is more "techy" just because they have newer architecture in their CBD.

Yeah, this woman struck me as a complete idiot when I read the article. I don't know where she was, but there are several coffee shops that are open well after 6 PM, with others in the city open all night long. As for being "tech-y" (whatever that is supposed to mean), I don't think Austin is any more so than Pittsburgh. If anything, I would the nod to Pittsburgh on the tech front (though I'm sure Austin is a nice city).

As for Downtown going 24/7... I don't know if I think it's worth the effort. The neighborhood will become more nightlife-friendly as people continue to move there. But I don't think it can be made into a "destination" without having a few thousand more people living there; it's too geographically confined.

The only real problem I see with downtown is that its too compartmentalized. You have the cultural district, which is awesome, at one end. Point Park Univ./Duquesne/Art Institute at another end. Then there is a — load of people living in and around gateway center. Unfortunately, there is a dead zone between all of them. Connecting the three areas should be a priority. Point Park seems to be working in that direction as it grows down Smithfield and Wood. Duquesne is finally coming down from the bluff, but needs to expand down Forbes towards downtown. The cultural district should spread down Wood and Smithfield, and meet Point Park halfway. And the residential areas growing around Fifth and Market Square need to connect with Gateway Center. Once those areas grow organically into one another, downtown will be quite an awesome place to live. But, until those dark and lifeless areas in the middle are filled with people, I don't see downtown becoming a truly 24/7 neighborhood.

Just my two cents.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by beyondtheforest

Why is downtown so neglected? I realize there have been efforts lately to restore and improve downtown Pittsburgh, but it seems few people who live in the city go there regularly. I think everyone is just stuck in their own little neighborhood. I think bringing more residents downtown will really help...

Originally Posted by hyperion1110

Y But I don't think it can be made into a "destination" without having a few thousand more people living there; it's too geographically confined.

It doesn't seem that it is being "neglected" any longer, given the number of projects currently undertaken there.

Pittsburgh has always been a rather insular, somewhat fractured, neighborhood-oriented city, each with its own individual "downtown". Pittsburgh has never been a city with a high residential component to its downtown like other eastern cities have had (downtown was not a place one wanted to live for most of the past century given downtown's function and the enormous levels of smoke). I've said it before on this forum numerous times... Downtown Pittsburgh is a fortress... guarded on two sides by rivers and on the other by a high hill and a highway. As hyperion states above, it's geographically confined from the rest of the city. It is simply just not that easy to get to. There is no natural flow into and out of the downtown area. There is really no street grid connecting downtown to the rest of the city.

Hopes for a more vibrant "24/7" downtown lie in connection to Oakland via a rail line, and the further development of the Hill/Uptown and into the Strip.

[cdc]

Originally Posted by hyperion1110

As for the development, while its true that the proposed height exceeded the zoning, CMU's tactics still stink. If there was a problem with the height, CMU should, and did, voice their concerns. In response, the height was lower, presumably with the input of CMU. Then they complain again, and it was lowered again. Now, at less than half the original size it should have been, it hasn't been built yet...CMU is gearing up to whine some more.

My view is that this is the way real estate business is done. It
isn't for the faint of heart. It isn't about honor or doing the right
thing, it is about money and getting what you want (within the
constraints of the law, usually). I don't have a problem with what
CMU is doing.

Clearly "less than half the original size" still excedes the zoning,
otherwise the developer wouldn't be back at the board again and
wouldn't have provided another opening for CMU to protest.



As for Pitt, let's not forget the battle it waged over that empty plot
of land behind Trees Hall (Robinson Court area). How many years has
that been sitting and undeveloped? Pitt made sure to protect its
interests in that area (and I support that), even if it delayed any
work being done up there for a long time. CMU is just doing the same
thing.

[Tombstoner]

Originally Posted by pj3000

... It [downtown] is simply just not that easy to get to. There is no natural flow into and out of the downtown area. There is really no street grid connecting downtown to the rest of the city.

Hopes for a more vibrant "24/7" downtown lie in connection to Oakland via a rail line, and the further development of the Hill/Uptown and into the Strip.

The busline from Oakland to Downtown is really excellent. When I visit Pittsburgh and stay in Oakland I jump on the bus for downtown (and back) until late in the evening. I'm not saying a rail line wouldn't be better, but I don't think Downtown can really be called "isolated."

[bruchaus]

I think the "cultural district" is great for the city, except i hate that they call it the "cultural district" its so f'n corny. its almost as if people need to be told what culture is in order to enjoy it. they really need to come up with a better name.

[Wiz Khalifa]

Originally Posted by Tombstoner

The busline from Oakland to Downtown is really excellent. When I visit Pittsburgh and stay in Oakland I jump on the bus for downtown (and back) until late in the evening. I'm not saying a rail line wouldn't be better, but I don't think Downtown can really be called "isolated."

Agreed, I also don't buy the "downtown is geographically isolate from the rest of the city argument" as for a reason why it can't be more vibrant. The connection to the north shore is almost grid-like with the number of bridges there and it is a short walk across.

The highway between downtown the strip and uptown is raised most of the way, and can be be built under toward the strip and even built over (recalling the plan for the park cap over I-579 connecting downtown to uptown).

I think that the dead zone in the center of downtown that someone mentioned above is the most at fault here. If residential is gradually built in from all three sides towards the middle, then things could begin to drastically change. Piatt Place is a really good start, however much more affordable units need to be built in that area.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Tombstoner

The busline from Oakland to Downtown is really excellent. When I visit Pittsburgh and stay in Oakland I jump on the bus for downtown (and back) until late in the evening. I'm not saying a rail line wouldn't be better, but I don't think Downtown can really be called "isolated."

The busline works okay between downtown and Oakland, but it does absolutely nothing for development of the neighborhood in between. Downtown remains an isolated center from Oakland and beyond with what has become a virtual urban wasteland in between.

Downtown Pittsburgh IS isolated from its neighborhoods. That is a geographic fact. It's true that bridges connect downtown to the north and south sides, but a handful of bridges cannot compete with the natural barriers to transit that are the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers. Urban redev and transportation projects further cut off downtown from points east with the civic arena/Lower hill destruction and Crosstown Blvd./579 (this is why they are proposing to once again connect downtown by building atop Crosstown for the benefit of both downtown and the Hill/new arena development).

The isolation of Pittsburgh's downtown is not necessarily a bad thing overall. It makes Pittsburgh unique and provides for a very compact downtown area. But it has been a hindrance to residential growth in the golden triangle. Hopefully, that is changing.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Wiz Khalifa

The connection to the north shore is almost grid-like with the number of bridges there and it is a short walk across.
.

"almost grid-like" is really stretching it. There are 3 bridges, each terminating in a decidedly non-residential neighborhood with a grid pattern that was destroyed long ago.

[Juicedog1313]

Urban redev and transportation projects further cut off downtown from points east with the civic arena/Lower hill destruction and Crosstown Blvd./579 (this is why they are proposing to once again connect downtown by building atop Crosstown for the benefit of both downtown and the Hill/new arena development).

Yes!!!... the Mellon Arena and the sea of asphalt that it sits on is a major hinderance for activity flowing into Downtown. Along with Crosstown Blvd, that area is a Berlin Wall for street boppers. Hopefully they redevelop that area with a Hill/Downtown connection in mind. But the Hill District wouldn't help much anyway. The way that the Hill is being redeveloped is a friggin' shame. I could go on for hours about the mistakes that are being made on the hill right now.

[Juicedog1313]

Originally Posted by bruchaus

I think the "cultural district" is great for the city, except i hate that they call it the "cultural district" its so f'n corny. its almost as if people need to be told what culture is in order to enjoy it. they really need to come up with a better name.

I always thought it was lame, too.

[Wiz Khalifa]

Originally Posted by Juicedog1313

Yes!!!... the Mellon Arena and the sea of asphalt that it sits on is a major hinderance for activity flowing into Downtown. Along with Crosstown Blvd, that area is a Berlin Wall for street boppers. Hopefully they redevelop that area with a Hill/Downtown connection in mind. But the Hill District wouldn't help much anyway. The way that the Hill is being redeveloped is a friggin' shame. I could go on for hours about the mistakes that are being made on the hill right now.

Could you elaborate a little on that? I don't see what else can be done much better than what they are currently doing there. Maybe if they added a small hill business district that stretched up from downtown, it would improve the accessibility of the neighborhood.

[Wiz Khalifa]

Originally Posted by pj3000

"almost grid-like" is really stretching it. There are 3 bridges, each terminating in a decidedly non-residential neighborhood with a grid pattern that was destroyed long ago.

I don't quite understand what you mean by the grid being destroyed, unless you are talking about the Allegheny center, which I agree should be taken out. As for the residential aspect, there are new condos right across the river from the convention center as well as residences throughout the cultural district.

If they ever end up building Riverparc, the whole dynamic of that area will change. A non-residential district it will be no more. There is no single project that will have a greater impact on a neighborhood than Riverparc would have on revitalizing downtown, in my opinion.

[bradjl2009]

Originally Posted by Wiz Khalifa

I don't quite understand what you mean by the grid being destroyed, unless you are talking about the Allegheny center, which I agree should be taken out. As for the residential aspect, there are new condos right across the river from the convention center as well as residences throughout the cultural district.

If they ever end up building Riverparc, the whole dynamic of that area will change. A non-residential district it will be no more. There is no single project that will have a greater impact on a neighborhood than Riverparc would have on revitalizing downtown, in my opinion.

If only that was built................ Downtown would have had a truly residential section that would also be able to attract people from other areas of Allegheny County. There are already a lot of apartments in that area from new development and the renovations of upper floors of older buildings on Penn Ave. I really hope the Cultural Trust makes an announcement soon on RiverParc seeing that the economy is coming out of the bottom now.

[Suffice]

Just an idea i just came up with... How about, given the terrain elevation of the Hill Area just northeast of the new stadium, they build a tunnel from the stadium area to Oakland, making it wide enough for car traffic and trams. This way you'll have quick access from Oakland to DT without having to circumvent the entire area. This would probably be a lot less costly than revitalizing the entire hill area, and building a major road from Oakland to DT on top of the hill

[Evergrey]

I agree completely with pj3000's characterization of Downtown Pittsburgh as an "isolated fortress" despite its central location and central position within the regional economy. From a geographic perspective, it is an island... surrounded by rivers on three sides and a web of urban-fabric-shredding highways and a big hill to the east. Furthermore... when you cross the rivers from Downtown... you end up in rather unspectacular and unpopulated urban environments... to the south/west is a slender strip of land wide enough for nothing more than a single roadway (the ultra-depressing West Carson St.) and to the north is a slender redeveloping "sports/entertainment/—" district divided from the Allegheny Center-dominated lower North Side by a web of highways.

To the east is Downtown's only land connection to the city... and there is a sophisticated network of poorly designed highways acting as a moat... beyond that moat are three decrepit neighborhoods... Strip District, Hill District and Uptown... what we love about the Strip District is really just confined to Penn Ave. from 17th through 22nd or so... 5 blocks... a sea of parking lots destroys the urban environment of the Strip next to Downtown... and a desolate stretch of — warehouses and post-apocalyptic randomness extends for about 15 blocks east of the "nice" part of the Strip District... plus nobody lives here! The Hill District is well known for its socio-economic decline and structural devastation... and lower third being completely erased for an arena and its parking lots (which is why it is so important Mellon Arena is destroyed... and not preserved as some sort of totem to past urban redevelopment failures... this is a major opportunity to reconnect Downtown to the rest of the city)... Uptown has had similar problems and is largely dominated by hospital parking lots... nobody lives there either. If you ever try walking from the East End to Downtown... it's VERY obvious how the city's mid-section "between the rivers" is so devastated and hinders the cohesion and function of the city.

I do think this reality has a negative impact on residential, retail and entertainment components of Downtown... and it also demonstrates how it's just as important and useful to develop new market-rate residential stock in the neighborhoods adjacent to Downtown.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

I agree completely with pj3000's characterization of Downtown Pittsburgh as an "isolated fortress" despite its central location and central position within the regional economy. From a geographic perspective, it is an island... surrounded by rivers on three sides and a web of urban-fabric-shredding highways and a big hill to the east. Furthermore... when you cross the rivers from Downtown... you end up in rather unspectacular and unpopulated urban environments... to the south/west is a slender strip of land wide enough for nothing more than a single roadway (the ultra-depressing West Carson St.) and to the north is a slender redeveloping "sports/entertainment/—" district divided from the Allegheny Center-dominated lower North Side by a web of highways.

To the east is Downtown's only land connection to the city... and there is a sophisticated network of poorly designed highways acting as a moat... beyond that moat are three decrepit neighborhoods... Strip District, Hill District and Uptown... what we love about the Strip District is really just confined to Penn Ave. from 17th through 22nd or so... 5 blocks... a sea of parking lots destroys the urban environment of the Strip next to Downtown... and a desolate stretch of — warehouses and post-apocalyptic randomness extends for about 15 blocks east of the "nice" part of the Strip District... plus nobody lives here! The Hill District is well known for its socio-economic decline and structural devastation... and lower third being completely erased for an arena and its parking lots (which is why it is so important Mellon Arena is destroyed... and not preserved as some sort of totem to past urban redevelopment failures... this is a major opportunity to reconnect Downtown to the rest of the city)... Uptown has had similar problems and is largely dominated by hospital parking lots... nobody lives there either. If you ever try walking from the East End to Downtown... it's VERY obvious how the city's mid-section "between the rivers" is so devastated and hinders the cohesion and function of the city.

I do think this reality has a negative impact on residential, retail and entertainment components of Downtown... and it also demonstrates how it's just as important and useful to develop new market-rate residential stock in the neighborhoods adjacent to Downtown.

Yes.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Wiz Khalifa

I don't quite understand what you mean by the grid being destroyed, unless you are talking about the Allegheny center, which I agree should be taken out.

The grid (meaning street pattern and the accompanying neighborhood) was destroyed long ago. The Allegheny Center/Square project and its strangling street pattern alone destroyed around 600 buildings on about 85 acres of land directly across the river from downtown... 600 buildings! To put this plainly, an entire section of the city was demolished, one that included a high residential population close to downtown (like the lower Hill, but much larger; those were the only two residential districts that were adjacent to downtown Pittsburgh and both were destroyed, further isolating downtown from its citizens).

[Tombstoner]

Originally Posted by pj3000

The busline works okay between downtown and Oakland, but it does absolutely nothing for development of the neighborhood in between. Downtown remains an isolated center from Oakland and beyond with what has become a virtual urban wasteland in between.

Downtown Pittsburgh IS isolated from its neighborhoods. That is a geographic fact. It's true that bridges connect downtown to the north and south sides, but a handful of bridges cannot compete with the natural barriers to transit that are the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers. Urban redev and transportation projects further cut off downtown from points east with the civic arena/Lower hill destruction and Crosstown Blvd./579 (this is why they are proposing to once again connect downtown by building atop Crosstown for the benefit of both downtown and the Hill/new arena development).

The isolation of Pittsburgh's downtown is not necessarily a bad thing overall. It makes Pittsburgh unique and provides for a very compact downtown area. But it has been a hindrance to residential growth in the golden triangle. Hopefully, that is changing.

It might depend on what we mean by "isolated" -- if you mean "not as frequently accessed from adjacent neighborhoods, due to desolate pockets in those neighborhoods" then, yes, it is isolated. If you mean isolated in the sense that "there are no good means of getting to and from the area from surrounding parts of the city" (which was, I think, your original claim) then I disagree. Using the first definition of isolation, the answer is urban renewal, using the second definition, the solution is better transit. My point was that I don't think transit is the crux of the problem; if nicer surrounding areas created a pleasant urban transition from the East End to Downtown, I think better transit would naturally follow.

[UrbaniDesDev]

Originally Posted by Wiz Khalifa

Could you elaborate a little on that? I don't see what else can be done much better than what they are currently doing there. Maybe if they added a small hill business district that stretched up from downtown, it would improve the accessibility of the neighborhood.

There was a chance to have a business district thru the Hill, along Center Avenue. Instead they chopped the wide boulevard of Center Avenue off right at the top, at Crawford. It oddly and abruptly becomes a narrow street lined with single family residences. Now the new arena fronts on Center Avenue and there will be little positive effect felt east of Crawford Avenue on Center. Heavy traffic goes better with apartment/condo buildings than single family homes, and there's going to be heavy traffic.

I'm hoping they reintroduce Wylie Avenue through the arena land. I guess there is nothing left of the original, historic street and it's musical past, but putting it back in would be a good homage. Perhaps creating a center business district there.

I, for one, have never been a big fan of the development on the Hill. Yes, it has been successful and I actually wouldn't mind living in one of them. I feel it should of had a more dense urban feel. More low rise mixed with some high rise residential would have been more appropriate. Particularly along Center Avenue. The entire Hill District has amazing views and should be exploited. I'm hoping that what will be eventually built on all that Mellon Arena land