Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Which would be less than the cost of implementing and running them....

That is, if you underestimate fare evasion - thus underestimating lost revenues.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Studies can be wrong...and this one is certainly wrong.

Yes, studies can be wrong, but I'm not going to act as if I have invalidated them on opinion alone.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by mr.x

That is, if you underestimate fare evasion - thus underestimating lost revenues.

Things, all of which, conversely, can be overestimated, especially when based solely upon personal opinion.

[mezzanine]

this is interesting....

The shorter-term challenge will be keeping the Evergreen Line SkyTrain expansion to Coquitlam alive.

Prendergast believes elements like design work can continue even if a 10-year plan is passed without enough funding to build and operate the new SkyTrain line.

The fear is that with TransLink unable to commit to the $1.4-billion line, the federal government may not keep its promised capital contribution on the table.

"We don't want to lose the funding for the Evergreen Line from the federal government."

it will be an interesting few months - i really, really do hope evergreen gets built. perhaps we will see a repeat of the canada line - new plans, 11th hour changes and a round of brinksmanship....

[BCPhil]

There is a difference between fare evasion and lost revenues.

Not everyone who evades a fare would pay if they had to. It's like downloads. Just because a million people download a movie, doesn't mean each of those people would have paid for it if that was the only choice.

If there were fare gates, a lot of people who evade fares currently would just avoid transit.

But that is also part of the problem. I think "undesirables" that are riding for free keep other people from wanting to take transit. So while we might not actually recover a lot in the way of fares, we might attract new riders to a system that feels safer and cleaner.

The Canada Line is getting good reviews, and bringing people out to ride it who avoid transit because the staffing levels on the line make it feel clean and safe.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I would like to see the cost increased as well. Two main problems:

1) Tough to implement a pay per use system. Ideally insurance and taxes would be a per km thing. Gas taxes are good but an imperfect system.

2) You can't over-penalize people who don't have an alternative. I like the carbon tax for example but do have some sympathy for people outside Metro Vancouver.

While gas taxes are a good and fair way to have people paying for the use of the road. They won't be for long when even more fuel efficient and electric cars become more popular.

One thought I had would be to implement a system of electronic tolls on the roads. Maybe something like $0.50 for each KM. But only have it on the Burrard Peninsula. That way it would cost you to drive in the tri-cities, New west, Burnaby and Vancouver. But you wouldn't have pay such a toll if you were driving in in places like Maple ridge and surrey etc. Of course if someone from Surrey decided to cross the bridge then they would have to start paying once they are on the Burrard Peninsula. But if they wanted to they could just drive to scott road or some other skytrain line station and park. And take transit the rest of the way.

Atlhough I would build the evergreen line, UBC extenstion and Expo line extension first. And make sure they have some nice sized Park and Rides out in surrey.

I must say that I do live in the City of Vancouver and this system would hit me. So I'm not suggesting a system for a place where I never drive. And this idea is probably not without it's problems as well.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

But that is also part of the problem. I think "undesirables" that are riding for free keep other people from wanting to take transit. So while we might not actually recover a lot in the way of fares, we might attract new riders to a system that feels safer and cleaner.

The Canada Line is getting good reviews, and bringing people out to ride it who avoid transit because the staffing levels on the line make it feel clean and safe.

Yes, definitely. Also back to dreambrother808's comment, certainly those studies indicate fare gates wouldn't be "worthwhile" on a pure revenue/expense basis, like many things they've become too expensive because they weren't built in to the original system.

Although one of the main selling features in the design stage of the Expo line was the lack of drivers (no strikes, etc). That part is still nice, but modern Metro Vancouver shows that security is a big concern for transit users. Fair gates and staff are the only way...

Or we can just have mr. x run things based on his opinions.

[AlexYVR]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Or we can just have mr. x run things based on his opinions.

I hope you like Celine

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

If Transit is this short of money, then instead of raising taxes here and there, we should first look at the bus drivers union and demand massive pay cuts to bus drivers. They currently earn way too much for its worth (around $22/month is it? Many professional careers that require university education earn just a tad higher that that) and it definitely partly contributes to this Translink mess. Same goes with union bosses. I won't be surprised if significant savings can be made in this area that will cover their current financial windfalls.

Unions will never be efficient. Get over it. If they can't make concessions like this in a difficult economy. Get rid of it. I can't believe UBC even has an union for their Teaching Assistants (for god's sake, they're students. They should work and study hard for their careers, not getting another pay raise every single time they go on strike. Just breads laziness). I'm a TA myself at an US university and we don't EVEN have an union. Yet do I whine and complain like the TA's at UBC who are in unions did back in 2003 and went on strike? Course not, because I totally appreciate my job no matter what. I worked hard for it, so I got the job. So, I enjoy it and I try to learn as much as possible from it. Everytime I think about the TA union at UBC and being a TA here in the US right now, I find it hard to believe. Sorry for my rambling.

fine they could come work at my place and drive a truck or shunt truck for $27 an hour and full medical dental eye care etc. benefits with 5weeks vacation, 80hrs sickdays and all the other perks like extra stat days etc. This coming friday they could work a double time shift st my place for $54 an hour if their tight for cash.
If they dopnt feel like driving they can work the dock for 24.60 an hour with the same benefits.

Seriously, busdrivers are grossly underpayed for what they do and I dont think you have a good understanding of what real wages out there are in similar fields.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

What makes a job that requires a University Education automatically worth more than a bus driver?

If you graduate with a science degree and end up doing product testing as a lab assistant for example. You spend your days putting materials into little machines and compiling results together. A nice, easy, boring job.

Compare that to a bus driver, who functions as the lifeblood of the city's transportation network, is responsible for the lives of hundreds of people, has to deal with all kind of 🞵🞵🞵🞵. I don't think we can say just because he didn't go through 4 years of University, his job should pay less. They do receive training, it's just on-the-job and constant. We should be happy that we have so many people willing to stay on as drivers with so much experience. I can't recall the last time there was ever any news story about some crazy bus driver with no training who caused an accident or hit anyone.

Personally, I chose the Uni Degree/non-Trades route, but I have a healthy respect for the skill many of these trades have. Sure, there are losers out there, but then there are also lazy "white-collar" workers too.

Okay, that's my rant. I reserve the right not to be coherent.

Unions are very efficient at keeping skilled labour paid well, because generally the ones who control the paychecks have less respect ( or perhaps jealousy? ) for the skilled jobs that they can't ( or won't ) do and didn't require throwing thousands of dollars down the toilet on a University Education that nets you a whopping $16/hour. I'm not saying education is useless, but there is room for all kinds of workers, some apprenticeships, some management, some clerks...etc.

Hey great post.
It takes a real idiot to complain about his wages and use his education as a basis for his complaints. If high wages were what he were after then he should of been more carefull choosing the filed he wanted to study or find a job in demand or a job where it takes years to develop job specific skills that the employer cant just go and find on the street.

I also sometimes dont think people understand the amount of years that have to be put in some of these jobs to become "good" at them and the amount of skill and learning they require.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That part is still nice, but modern Metro Vancouver shows that security is a big concern for transit users. Fair gates and staff are the only way...:

Very true. I am not entirely against fare gates. I just think we need to be realistic about them, especially with regard to Translink's current financial difficulties.
Most likely, they will cost more than they save, and can we therefore really afford them?

Many of us here seem to want Translink to aspire to some kind of perfection, with every refinement and convenient feature that comes to mind, but in the end all of these dreams require resources.
We can pout and demand all we want, but in the face of genuine financial limitations, how rational are our expectations?

I often feel sorry for those who choose work in governing bodies. The rest of us tend to come across as whining children sometimes. We want this but we also want that and this and this and that! Oh but we also want low taxes, low fares, cheap car travel, and in general, to not have to suffer in any way to get what we want. Those in power can screw the average person over but we, the average folk, can also screw them over in return with our unrealistic expectations.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Very true. I am not entirely against fare gates. I just think we need to be realistic about them, especially with regard to Translink's current financial difficulties.
Most likely, they will cost more than they save, and can we therefore really afford them?

Yep, I agree. It's on "the list". Personally my top priority would be rapid transit line expansion. Evergreen, UBC, Expo, in that order.

But, I'd rather see turnstiles on Skytrain before more buses, for example. It's all relative.

Obviously I don't want to see services cut in order to make any of these things happen too.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I often feel sorry for those who choose work in governing bodies. The rest of us tend to come across as whining children sometimes. We want this but we also want that and this and this and that! Oh but we also want low taxes, low fares, cheap car travel, and in general, to not have to suffer in any way to get what we want. Those in power can screw the average person over but we, the average folk, can also screw them over in return with our unrealistic expectations.

Heh, I agree. You could also replace "the rest of us" with the BC NDP, they don't have any realistic answers either. I don't want to turn this political, but the Liberals do need to step up and not keep pointing the finger at Translink. I'm willing to pay more either as a transit user, a driver, or a general taxpayer (I'm all 3) to see Translink get the funding they need. But at the same time, show me the books and convince me you're already running a tight ship.

[DKaz]

Translink comissioner Martin Crilly releases his report to the mayors on Translink's financial plan. According to News 1130, he comments that Translink's 3 to 3.5% fare hike in April is ok but they need to clean house before raising fares even more.

Full report available for download here:
http://translinkcommission.org/html/what_s_new.html

[nname]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Studies can be wrong...and this one is certainly wrong.

Personally, I haven't seen a single person got caught by a fare check from the last 10 fare checks I had...

[Waders]

Originally Posted by nname

Personally, I haven't seen a single person got caught by a fare check from the last 10 fare checks I had...

There is no accurate way to know exactly how many passengers didn't have a ticket or monthly/fare pass.

I have frequent experience seeing passengers without ticket being caught by transit police.
it is easy to tell which passengers had no ticket by the way they acted. When they saw police on the station platform, these 'suspected cheaters' would try to get out from the train just when the police entered the train. Of course the police knew this type of behaviour too. So the police would also exit from the train and held those people for ticket check. Quite often the police would radio back to headquarter to do some background check to see if those people are 'wanted' for some other criminal activities.
It is a 'cat and mouse' game that 'cheater' and police tried to out smart one another.

[Waders]

Can someone explain how the current Translink Board Governance Model works?
Is today's new release http://www.translinkcommission.org/html/opinion_on_10_year_plan.html,
just an opinion of TransLink's Regional Transportation Commissioner
or did he actually exercise his authority and made decision about the 10 years plan?
I still have to read the full report http://www.translinkcommission.org/CommissReport2010TenYearPlan.pdf
in detail. But news article like http://www.theprovince.com/Fare+hike+Evergreen+Line+Report/1960290/story.html seems to suggest that the 10 years plan is back at the drawing board.

[CLC]

Time to stock up faresavers!

TransLink spokesperson Ken Hardie said there are no plans to change the current price of cash fares, but the cost of monthly passes and pre-paid tickets will increase.

“It helps us to sustain the system,” Hardie said. “I think it’s important for people to know that their fare only covers about 52 per cent of their actual ride. We need a slightly greater contribution.”

A one-zone monthly pass, which costs $73 now, will increase to $81.

Transit users pick up the tab again
http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/local/2009/09/03/10741291.html

[Xerx]

Originally Posted by Waders

Can someone explain how the current Translink Board Governance Model works?
Is today's new release http://www.translinkcommission.org/html/opinion_on_10_year_plan.html,
just an opinion of TransLink's Regional Transportation Commissioner
or did he actually exercise his authority and made decision about the 10 years plan?
I still have to read the full report http://www.translinkcommission.org/CommissReport2010TenYearPlan.pdf
in detail. But news article like http://www.theprovince.com/Fare+hike+Evergreen+Line+Report/1960290/story.html seems to suggest that the 10 years plan is back at the drawing board.

translink page should explain how it works
http://www.translink.ca/en/About-TransLi...l/governance_chart.ashx?w=367&h=619&as=1

[officedweller]

Well, it's probably still up to the Mayors' Council to go for the high priced option.

[whatnext]

Gordo's HST blows $57 million hole in Translink's budget, could force service cuts:
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/sinks+TransLink+million+hole+fare+hike+approved/1960086/story.html